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How Should Speakers be Stabilised?


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I promised GeneZ I would kick off this thread, but I'm feeling a bit pooped at the moment - so, I might take the lazy way out ^_^, and point to a thread on another forum where I kicked off this very conversation, 7 years ago - my posts there are just as relevant, although I'm less focused on using spikes these days.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/how-should-speakers-be-stabilised.4239/

 

To sum up, for me the more rigid the speaker is mounted in its position the better, and I've never wavered from that.

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we are talking about conehead speakers - not Quads or Maggies or M-Ls...

 

if you use a rigid mount to the surface you reduce IM distortion caused by movement of the speaker box, which can modulate the dome tweeter - this is very clear form laser interferometry studies by B&W and others

 

but... if you rigidly couple it to a non-rigid surface (like a desk or bookcase, etc.) then you may vibrate that surface in a baaaaad way

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Boenicke has an interesting solution:

 

 

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Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC 

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6 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

we are talking about conehead speakers - not Quads or Maggies or M-Ls...

 

if you use a rigid mount to the surface you reduce IM distortion caused by movement of the speaker box, which can modulate the dome tweeter - this is very clear form laser interferometry studies by B&W and others

 

but... if you rigidly couple it to a non-rigid surface (like a desk or bookcase, etc.) then you may vibrate that surface in a baaaaad way

 

By the same logic the frame of a panel speaker should be locked into position; if I were to have one of these types of speakers one of the first experiments I would do is to add bracing such that the frame became rigid with respect to the room - conceptually, the frame becomes immensely massive.

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I don't think the fact they project sound front and back makes much difference to causing the stand to react to the diaphragm moving. As a thought experiment, lower the frequency down to a visible back and forth rocking of greater amplitude - is the frame not going to respond?

 

The elements may have lower mass, but they are applying pressure to the air; which creates the sound. For equivalent volume from a cone speaker there will equivalent back pressure from the air being vibrated, in the panel speaker - ideally, the frame needs to remain perfectly still at all times.

 

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Don't forget to use ratcheting tie-down straps to hold your speakers to their stands!  You can experiment with different widths and strap colors to see which gives the best synergy with your system.  lol   :D

 

请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子

 

 

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On 12/13/2018 at 4:54 AM, Blake said:

Boenicke has an interesting solution:

 

 

I have a similar floating setup with my B&W 803Ds on Townshend speaker bars, I got interested in the subject after reading Barry Diament's findings with his gear. I wasn't necessarily chasing improved SQ, rather trying to fix the bass resonating to my downstairs neighbours with the speakers coupled to the floor - which it did.

 

BTW.....it sounds great.

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22 hours ago, Hugo9000 said:

Don't forget to use ratcheting tie-down straps to hold your speakers to their stands!  You can experiment with different widths and strap colors to see which gives the best synergy with your system.  lol   :D

 

 

Whether people think such things are silly or not, the local audio friend has this arrangement! His own idea, I've never tried this, the speakers are tiny Tannoys, on relatively solid metal stands - and we've spent several sessions experimenting with all the factors: where to apply the force, what to seat the speakers on, how tight the ratchet ...

 

Every variation made a significant difference - best opened up the sound, gave very good authority to the bass line.

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  • 2 weeks later...

For many years I had my Lowther speakers suspended from the ceiling on long strings (actually bow string which is incredibly strong). This gave a resonant frequency of about 0.3Hz, which means the cones can be bouncing around doing all kinds of vibrations and the speaker enclosure just sits there not moving at all.

 

I found this to be far more effective than bolting the speakers to the floor.

 

I haven't done this in my new listening room, I'm looking into other approaches at the moment.

 

John S.

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My system both main speakers & subwoofers float on rollers for isolation, with confirmed positive SQ results.

Refer theory to Barry D. (maybe John S.), but in my mind & ears, isolation is effective & relatively easy/cheap.

Recent upgrade of some parts resulted in significant & welcome SQ upgrade, very big gain in soundstage precision & live-ness.  Upgrade replaced some broken cups, but significant change used smooth glazed ceramic bathroom tiles on subwoofers (replace acrylic plates). Mains already had similar tiles.

 

So configuration of isolators (bottom-to-top)-

carpeted wood floor (suspended over basement like drum skin)

acrylic dimple blocks (from retail display supplier) much cheaper then turned aluminum

stainless steel balls - 3/8" Grade 25  (Amazon)

smooth glazed bathroom tiles - (4-4"x4" - mains, 3-3"x3" - subs) (from any hardware outlet)

double stick tape (to hold tiles in place for setup)

speakers

 

Only problem is moving speaker off metal ball if grab for support or roughly brush against. Normal has couple inches of free play & weight hold in place. Test for free play by moving <1" back & forth. So all speakers need care to not disturb position much. But small price to pay for big reduction in floor-speaker interaction & corresponding big SQ improvement. If cost not factor Symposium or other devices probably little better.

 

Use similar setup for electronics, but with stainless steel camp mirror plates vs. tiles (again heard improvement over acrylic), also small, soft inner tubes for vertical isolation (not practicable for heavy speakers). All isolation benefits additive for audio system components.

 

IMHO  9_9

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I have found nothing more effective than Sistrum stands.  Their logic, their simple (but all in; don't use other isolation devices that get in their way)) technology works fantastically.  Yes, I am a customer; but no, I am not an investor.  Many of my audio friends (incl folks like Terry London) would highly agree.

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22 minutes ago, look&listen said:

More information please.

This review, along with the link for more info, says it pretty well.  I find most isolation devices to over-dampen live dynamics.  I find the Sistrum approach to do the opposite, while allowing bad vibrations to go unimpeded to ground.  YMMV

https://www.dagogo.com/sistrum-stands-review/

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12 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

For many years I had my Lowther speakers suspended from the ceiling on long strings (actually bow string which is incredibly strong). This gave a resonant frequency of about 0.3Hz, which means the cones can be bouncing around doing all kinds of vibrations and the speaker enclosure just sits there not moving at all.

 

I found this to be far more effective than bolting the speakers to the floor.

 

I haven't done this in my new listening room, I'm looking into other approaches at the moment.

 

John S.

 

commonly done with Quads too

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9 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

this is a topic where measurements should dominate

Why? What audiophiles have equipment for measurements? What standards for measures across tiny market manufacturers? Also would be nice for comparative hearing tests. Where are any? Can you help?

 

I only know one isolator company show measurements - Pneuance Audio   (review)

 

9 hours ago, sdolezalek said:

neither side having much more than a very casual understanding of why they believe what they believe.

WTF? Much can be learned from writings of Barry Diamont & John Swenson on theory of operation of roller isolation & more. Much good discussion here if search older posts! I soon look at recommended Sistrum documentation.

 

Have mental model of roller isolation as mass of supported device tending to stay at rest (like physics law) while rest of world buzzes around under it. Issues of retention, materials, friction, mechanical impedance, hardness, concentricity. e&. there too, as implementation details, but takeaway is physics to rescue  :)

 

So maybe better for you to dig deeper before announce a pox on both houses?

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On 12/28/2018 at 7:40 PM, look&listen said:

WTF? Much can be learned from writings of Barry Diamont & John Swenson on theory of operation of roller isolation & more. Much good discussion here if search older posts! I soon look at recommended Sistrum documentation.

 

Have mental model of roller isolation as mass of supported device tending to stay at rest (like physics law) while rest of world buzzes around under it. Issues of retention, materials, friction, mechanical impedance, hardness, concentricity. e&. there too, as implementation details, but takeaway is physics to rescue  :)

 

So maybe better for you to dig deeper before announce a pox on both houses?

I have very carefully read all of the Barry Diament threads on this topic (and virtually all of the other vibration threads on Computer Audiophile).  Barry's methods make a huge amount of sense in terms of isolating equipment from outside vibrations.  His roller bearings (if built correctly) should isolate equipment from horizontal vibrations quite effectively, but can't do much in a vertical direction (which is why he also uses inner tubes (or air bearings) to create some level of up and down isolation. 

 

But think about what his roller bearings do for his Magnepans.  Every spring is tuned to be more or less compliant at different frequencies, in other words at some frequencies the spring acts as a highly effective isolator and at other frequencies it behaves just like a metal spike.  I believe that Barry has worked to make sure the natural frequency of his roller bearings is below the audible range of his Magnepans.  If that is true, then they should act as spikes (stiffeners) for all audible frequencies, while effectively isolating any nonaudible frequencies that might still affect the frame of the speaker.  Separately, if you look at the designs of many other "roller bearing" applications, what you see are fairly small dishes in which the sides roll up quickly -- which means that the amount of isolation is highly limited, probably to far less that the excursion limits of a 20Hz woofer.  What does that mean as a low frequency driver plays softer and louder notes? Are the softer notes fully isolated, whereas in the louder ones the excursion limits are reached?  

 

As to the Sistrum system, I loved the following review: "Sistrum Rack Systems allow the speaker generated resonances and the associated airborne resonances to happen. If it vibrates; let it. This is a concept that we just don't hear about. Absorb, absorb. Isolate, isolate! Well, their speaker support system is a complex vibrating conduit, composed of a secret (patent pending) metallurgy formula, and added geometrical design that directs, very expeditiously, resonances to earth's ground with no back-feeding effects."  Sure enough, if I can just make the resonances go away by "sending them to ground" then I don't need to worry about either isolation or absorption...  You just need the right metals and geometries...

 

I'm not so much trying to announce a pox on either absorption or isolation (or for that matter stiffening), I just think that in this time of computing, analytics, big data, etc. we can do better than most of the explanations I see as to how or why a certain technology works, or what it is trying to protect us from.   

 

Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>Holo Audio May KTE DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6)

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  • 1 year later...
On 12/12/2018 at 4:40 AM, fas42 said:

I promised GeneZ I would kick off this thread, but I'm feeling a bit pooped at the moment - so, I might take the lazy way out ^_^, and point to a thread on another forum where I kicked off this very conversation, 7 years ago - my posts there are just as relevant, although I'm less focused on using spikes these days.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/how-should-speakers-be-stabilised.4239/

 

To sum up, for me the more rigid the speaker is mounted in its position the better, and I've never wavered from that.

 

Yes, same for the floor - concrete, tile, slate - good.  Wall to wall carpet - very bad, Improperly sprung wood floor - worse.

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