Extreme dual PC computer audio setup shootout between AudioLinux and Windows Server 2019

[Windows X]

5 minutes ago, Dutch said:

 

If that’s true that’s “a shame”. When people get inspired from ideas by others shared on a public forum the least they could do is give some feedback after they’ve tried things themselves. Those experiences (good or bad) are a lot more valuable then the dismissive posts from some who haven’t even tried any of it.

 

If you check my past record, you'll see that I don't post outside Fidelizer thread more than providing my support there until last few months. I also became inactive after early December until recently when I start to see mention notification in my email. So it might be an ignorant of me to assume things based on what I heard as I rarely check in forums outside my support thread nowadays.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[tapatrick]

27 minutes ago, Windows X said:

 

My apologies. It seems I quoted the wrong post. Here's the correct one.

My point is some people may have issues but most of them did not voice their opinions in forum for some reason. If we can encourage people to express their findings more freely in both what they do well or what they lack, maybe the products can be improved better with such feedback.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

no probs, thanks for clarifying!

 

Maybe some people you mention need to adjust some other part of their system, power, cables, isolation etc.. The reports from respected sources below are pretty clear. Also I do not have a glare issue with my AL ram boot dual NUC setup.

 

It all depends on what you are comparing it to I suppose and each of us has subjective listening preferences.

 

On 12/7/2018 at 9:10 PM, austinpop said:

I for one do not hear even the hint of glare with AL/RAM! Quite the opposite.

 

On 12/7/2018 at 9:26 PM, Johnseye said:

I have a high powered processor and no glare with Audiolinux.

 

I have used Windows with both Fidelizer and Audiophile Optimizer so I have enough experience to compare.

I hear less digital glare, high end, sibilance, etc with the NUC and Audiolinux in ram than with any other configuration.

[tapatrick]

28 minutes ago, Dutch said:

Bobfa and I both have have also reported brightness/glare issues with the NUC/AL with some tracks, not all of them. 

I can confirm that some tracks definitely have sibilance, and other unpleasant issues in the recordings. I hear everything more clearly than ever before. Best is live recordings - highly enjoyable!

[Windows X]

The problem in social forum is like this. When one person stated that I think I have this sound issue, more people post that they don't have that issue and encourage them to check this and that. They may have good intention to help but such situation won't encourage people to share their subjective opinions that may cause conflicts more.

 

I agree that it's subjective we can't conclude that the glare issue will always happen to everyone. I once witness the event where one person complaining about strong glare and another person was commenting how smooth and musical the system was. And they both hear the same system at the same time.

 

So people from different systems with different ears are bounded to have different results. What should matter for them is how to optimize system for the listener so they can enjoy music more. If they prefer something that I think it's not appropriate or incorrect, they can learn over time since things will always change as long as audiophiles keep trying to improve.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[Dutch]

22 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I can confirm that some tracks definitely have sibilance, and other unpleasant issues in the recordings. I hear everything more clearly than ever before. Best is live recordings - highly enjoyable!

 

Yes, it’s something I also theorized about in my shared findings; it being something in the tracks and it being ‘laid bare’ by the more resolving NUC/AL combo. I’m not sure yet if this is the full story.

 

I posted my findings here: 

 

The post right after the post above after details my system. It’s in a fully acoustically treated living room. In that diagram posted there the SMS-200 is now a NUC7PJYH.

 

Since then I’ve replaced the short Curious USB cable between the NUC and Mutec with a Lush^2 cable. Switched to AL in RAM running on my DIY music server out of which I also removed the SSD (there was someone else who found this reduced glare in his NUC/AL setup). I bridged the two NIC’s. It did help a bit but it’s not gone yet, some frequencies seem to get ‘excited’ in this setup.

 

 

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, Windows X said:

The problem in social forum is like this. When one person stated that I think I have this sound issue, more people post that they don't have that issue and encourage them to check this and that. They may have good intention to help but such situation won't encourage people to share their subjective opinions that may cause conflicts more.

 

I agree that it's subjective we can't conclude that the glare issue will always happen to everyone. I once witness the event where one person complaining about strong glare and another person was commenting how smooth and musical the system was. And they both hear the same system at the same time.

 

So people from different systems with different ears are bounded to have different results. What should matter for them is how to optimize system for the listener so they can enjoy music more. If they prefer something that I think it's not appropriate or incorrect, they can learn over time since things will always change as long as audiophiles keep trying to improve.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

No doubt!

 

The best we can hope for online is when a considerable number of unconnected and respected sources state something works exceptionally well then you know there is something worth checking out. 

[rickca]

On 12/5/2018 at 3:09 PM, Windows X said:

I also built some intensive optimizations myself but still prefer Windows and decided not to sell it though I'm sure it can massively improve Roon Rock, Daphile, AudioLinux, and many others like it did on various Android DAPs.

Put it out as a beta and I'm sure lots of people will try it.

[Windows X]

3 hours ago, tapatrick said:

No doubt!

 

The best we can hope for online is when a considerable number of unconnected and respected sources state something works exceptionally well then you know there is something worth checking out. 

 

Respectable source or not is not the point here. People have different systems and different listening experience. I'm sure you'd hear something like not understanding why some people can't perceive like they have from one of your friends. If you feel like to ignore nobody's opinion, that's your right to do. However, being nobody doesn't mean that opinion doesn't matter.

 

3 hours ago, rickca said:

Put it out as a beta and I'm sure lots of people will try it.

 

I considered it. Many of my friends told me I should give it a shot too. However, it feels wrong for me to publish something I'm not confident that it can meet my standards on user's system. I have the concept like PerfectDynamics for dedicated Linux OS optimizations and you need to get exact parameters to keep the sound right in Linux. It's not as good as I can do in Windows but close enough for Purist ROM I develop for DAPs.

 

Cooking a ROM for specific device with fixed specifications like processor speed, number of cores, amount of RAM, etc. is possible to archive for one device per ROM. Windows made it possible with very complexed backend platform to intelligently optimize optimal values for different hardware. I can't do something like that for Linux to work with any hardware yet.

 

Fidelizer may look simple and easy to perform but it took over a decade effort to research and come up with algorithm to intelligently make complexed optimizations simple enough.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[tapatrick]

16 hours ago, Windows X said:

 

Respectable source or not is not the point here. People have different systems and different listening experience. I'm sure you'd hear something like not understanding why some people can't perceive like they have from one of your friends. If you feel like to ignore nobody's opinion, that's your right to do. However, being nobody doesn't mean that opinion doesn't matter.

I respect everyones opinion, but this doesn't help me determine value. You said yourself that 2 people listening to the same thing gave completely different reports.

 

I still can't work out what is being proposed here:

2 more PCs running windows server in Ram, Fidelizger, AudiophileRenderer, JPLAY Femto, 32-core AMD Ryzen Threadripper fix?

 

What is the cost and is it worth it?

 

I already have a £2000+ music server unused since I switched to Dual NUC/AL which cost a few hundred £s giving outstanding sound quality. I'd just like to know what is involved or where to find out.

[tapatrick]

14 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

I'd just like to know what is involved or where to find out.

okay I found what I was looking for here:

http://jplay.eu/ml_post_slider/jplay-dual-pc-mode-how-it-works-why-you-need-it/

 

So why is Fidelizger and AudiophileRenderer needed?

[kelvinwsy]

Hi Everyone

To share my testing of all the above

or similar setup

I run a highly filtered 6700k Hqplayer PC with WinServer2016 Core Mode Audiophile Optimizer 2.20 and Fidelizer 8.3

I use the NAA endpoint setup

First it was a Minix Neo Z83 quad core cherry trail fanless minipc with 4gb ddr3 RAM and 32 gb mmc / win10pro running JUSSI's Windows NAA 

I switched to a SOTM 200 Ultra Neo on 4.22?

4.50/4.5.1 still suffered stuttering

 

Anyway I bought a 8650u fanless minipc to tryout this Audiolinux trend

 

First I tried Jussi's bootable LINUX NAA distro

It sounded good .. The SOTM SM200 Ultra Neo still sounded better..Quieter and deeper better stereo sound stage more precise imaging on my SennHD800 HP system

 

Bought AL 0.8 headless this week .. found it easy to burn onto a 64gb sandisk USB3.0 stick

.. i used RUFUS latest version

Spent Friday and Saturday loading it onto my 8650u 

Went thru the Bios to deactivate stuff

Ranroot and extreme high temp modes selected 

The USB Stick memorized all the settings 

Tried it on my system vs the  SOTM NEO linked to a iFi iDSD BL thru a isoregen ultracap Lps1 with a 1amp LT3045 ultra low noise regulator

The SOTM Neo won!

 

I thought Hey maybe the 16gb RAM and 64 gb SDD in the 8650 u was the cause 

As I wanted the 8650u to be maybe a server for a second system, removal of extra RAM and the SSD was no no

What about my old Minix minipc 

I stuck the AL USB stick in , went UEFI usb bootup in the BIOS and it worked!!

 

It sounded damn good but the hard edge to the high mids and high freqs was still there .. Same for the 8650U .. Using my AudioTechnica ADX1000 mid centric HPs works better 

 

I had a thought .. The SOTM NEO - you connect the DAC to the special USB Port... must be filtered right?

 

I have the LH LABS Geek Pulse DAC with their LPSU which has a filtered 5v USB Power socket .. U use their 2 headed 2G USB Cable to supply clean 5v power while the signal comes thru the other A connector (like the iFi Gemini cable and USB 3.0 system)

 

So i tried it ..

Minix Neo AL RAMROOT Extreme high Temp NAA MODE

USB 3.0 output 2G signal to the Isoregen

power from the LH Labs LPSU 5v output

 

Hqplayer on my WinServer HQplayer PC

plays ok!

SQ took a quantum leap fwd.. No more mid-hi/highs

Quieter/improved Stereo sound stage vocals and instruments localization

 

Fantastic

 

Swopped in  my SOTM SM200 Neo still using the LH Labs 5v clean power 

 

Still better than the AL MINIX but only in the what I prefer as better tonality 

Better stereo sound stage width and depth

 

I use Sara Bareilles 96K HDTracks Live at the Variety Playhouse also John Denver's remastered An Evening with

 

The SQ differences are minor but on good Live albums u can hear the differences

 

The AL NAA is perfectly good for 90% of music .. U dont miss anything except in the best recorded live music where Hall ambience , audience noises and better Stereo Staging can be differentiated

 

Took out the 2G usb cable my default are the Uptone usb hard connectors.. went back to default

Detail and SQ went a step up .. my default setup 

 

Audiolinux Best 49 usd i hv spent

BTW Jussi's bootable NAA sounds Fantastic and is Free!!!

So i hv 2 systems now BOTH fantastic sounding

 

Happy Listening to All

 

[greenleo]

22 hours ago, tapatrick said:

I can confirm that some tracks definitely have sibilance, and other unpleasant issues in the recordings. I hear everything more clearly than ever before. Best is live recordings - highly enjoyable!

I hear more imperfections after using AL.  However, I do not regard a bad thing but a merit of the AL.  Live recording sounds more realistic.

[Windows X]

Glare and sibilance are similar but different. From my experience with ultra highend CD/SACD transport, I agree that some of them are sibilance from recordings but glare is the characteristic of transport itself. Such thing also exist in ultra highend CD transport to some degree.

 

The least glare I've ever heard are Esoteric P-0 series and Emm Labs CDSD series, vintage Spectral transport, and maybe some others.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[davide256]

21 hours ago, Windows X said:

 

Respectable source or not is not the point here. People have different systems and different listening experience. I'm sure you'd hear something like not understanding why some people can't perceive like they have from one of your friends. If you feel like to ignore nobody's opinion, that's your right to do. However, being nobody doesn't mean that opinion doesn't matter.

 

 

I considered it. Many of my friends told me I should give it a shot too. However, it feels wrong for me to publish something I'm not confident that it can meet my standards on user's system. I have the concept like PerfectDynamics for dedicated Linux OS optimizations and you need to get exact parameters to keep the sound right in Linux. It's not as good as I can do in Windows but close enough for Purist ROM I develop for DAPs.

 

Cooking a ROM for specific device with fixed specifications like processor speed, number of cores, amount of RAM, etc. is possible to archive for one device per ROM. Windows made it possible with very complexed backend platform to intelligently optimize optimal values for different hardware. I can't do something like that for Linux to work with any hardware yet.

 

Fidelizer may look simple and easy to perform but it took over a decade effort to research and come up with algorithm to intelligently make complexed optimizations simple enough.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

Sorry, I disagree... even with Fidelizer Pro Windows can't match  AL for Roonserver SQ. My issues with AL endpoint glare eventually resolved by improving the power supply and turning off USB charging. We should all be clear that AL endpoint works in spite of the pedestrian USB hardware in a NUC... so frustrated that we can't get it for the USB purpose built xRendu devices, those should perform at an even higher level than a generic micro computer.

[Windows X]

55 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Sorry, I disagree... even with Fidelizer Pro Windows can't match  AL for Roonserver SQ. My issues with AL endpoint glare eventually resolved by improving the power supply and turning off USB charging. We should all be clear that AL endpoint works in spite of the pedestrian USB hardware in a NUC... so frustrated that we can't get it for the USB purpose built xRendu devices, those should perform at an even higher level than a generic micro computer.

 

I'm glad to hear your case is resolved but that doesn't mean it can solve with others. Some people have different tolerance level of glare. I didn't mean to make this thread as to criticize AL having glare but all digital audio has glare to some degree as it's not pure and perfect like analogue.

 

Trying to say digital audio has zero glare would be too unrealistic. I'm talking about this issue based on my experience $10-30k CD/SACD transports which I also own some of them too of course and I could say I still notice certain level of glare even from $30 SACD transport too, let alone servers.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[Windows X]

Also, some speakers may reveal glare and sibilance stronger than others too. I used to love increasing details and clarity with my computer audio setup until I later discovered side effects about glare.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[davide256]

5 hours ago, greenleo said:

I hear more imperfections after using AL.  However, I do not regard a bad thing but a merit of the AL.  Live recording sounds more realistic.

so easy to blame the wrong component... glare is  a constellation of bad actors just waiting for a change to rile them up in a new way, forcing you to root out problems

obscured in the older, lesser resolution solution 🔊

[tapatrick]

9 hours ago, tapatrick said:

okay I found what I was looking for here:

http://jplay.eu/ml_post_slider/jplay-dual-pc-mode-how-it-works-why-you-need-it/

 

So why is Fidelizger and AudiophileRenderer needed?

http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/fidelizer-8-3-released-improved-hardware-keys-compatibility-on-dual-boot-and-windows-update-audiophilerenderer-and-jplay-femto-support-and-32-core-amd-ryzen-threadripper-fix/

"Fidelizer 8.3 released – Improved hardware key’s compatibility on dual boot and Windows Update, AudiophileRenderer and JPLAY Femto support, and 32-core AMD Ryzen Threadripper fix"

 

@Windows X Can you please explain what the software combination of Windows, Fidelizer, Audiophilerender, JPLAY femto and threadripper do?

If this is not the right forum to discuss please let me know. Thanks!

 

ps I always thought your avatar name meant you represented Windows OS

[Dutch]

11 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

Audiophilerender

 

It’s Audiophile Optimizer, https://www.highend-audiopc.com/audiophile-optimizer

 

There’s a sponsored subforum here on AS for it as well: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/26-highend-audiopc-sponsored/

 

Threadripper is a series of CPU’s by AMD: https://www.amd.com/en/products/ryzen-threadripper

 

JPlay Femto is the newest player software by JPlay: http://jplay.eu/

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, Windows X said:

Trying to say digital audio has zero glare would be too unrealistic....

You bring up a good point, in fact any audio that goes through electronics/amplification will affect the sound in an unnnatural way - but I only notice this with voices.

 

I was at a concert recently and it was obvious there was an edge (glare?) to the sound of an amplified singers voice. I just accept now that this will always be part of electronics. I would not have noticed or been bothered by this 5 years ago. The AL dual NUC goes a long way in my system to alleviating this edge (apart from and except for issues in recordings).

[tapatrick]

8 minutes ago, Dutch said:

 

It’s Audiophile Optimizer, https://www.highend-audiopc.com/audiophile-optimizer

 

There’s a sponsored subforum here on AS for it as well: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/forum/26-highend-audiopc-sponsored/

 

Threadripper is a series of CPU’s by AMD: https://www.amd.com/en/products/ryzen-threadripper

 

JPlay Femto is the newest player software by JPlay: http://jplay.eu/

Thanks @Dutch I will have to do some more reading. I'm curious what all these parts do. Seems a lot of different software running together.. It's bit daunting as I've never used PCs and I'm not motivated these days to enter a whole other wormhole since getting the AL NUCs working so well. Still curious though what makes it tick. 

[Windows X]

6 hours ago, tapatrick said:

http://www.fidelizer-audio.com/fidelizer-8-3-released-improved-hardware-keys-compatibility-on-dual-boot-and-windows-update-audiophilerenderer-and-jplay-femto-support-and-32-core-amd-ryzen-threadripper-fix/

"Fidelizer 8.3 released – Improved hardware key’s compatibility on dual boot and Windows Update, AudiophileRenderer and JPLAY Femto support, and 32-core AMD Ryzen Threadripper fix"

 

@Windows X Can you please explain what the software combination of Windows, Fidelizer, Audiophilerender, JPLAY femto and threadripper do?

If this is not the right forum to discuss please let me know. Thanks!

 

ps I always thought your avatar name meant you represented Windows OS

 

Fidelizer improves sound quality of Windows' multimedia platform which will make all audio apps sounding better. JPLAY Femto is paid uPNP server/renderer software for better sound quality, Audiophile uPNP Renderer is free version working similar to JPLAY but accept WAV/FLAC/AIFF only.  Threadripper is new AMD Ryzen processor having 32 cores.

 

Sibilance is often vocal harshness from recordings with s/z voice or instruments with too high gain or volume sensitivity. Putting them on vinyl can still be heard.

 

Glare is caused from frequency distortion bringing harshness to from digital audio transport device that can affect all sound. It makes system sound brighter with unnatural slope of transient dynamics as side effects from trying to be too analytical.

 

Sibilance is part of recording and there's nothing much we can do about it except putting de-esser plugin ourselves. Glare isn't part of recording and can be redeemed. Some may mistook those added artifacts as finer details making the music sound more realistic.

 

There's nothing wrong if you like sibilance or glare though. I also used to enjoy those effects as it made my system sound more live and more true to source before too before I know more about real sound performance.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, Windows X said:

 

Fidelizer improves sound quality of Windows' multimedia platform which will make all audio apps sounding better. JPLAY Femto is paid uPNP server/renderer software for better sound quality, Audiophile uPNP Renderer is free version working similar to JPLAY but accept WAV/FLAC/AIFF only.  Threadripper is new AMD Ryzen processor having 32 cores.

 

Sibilance is often vocal harshness from recordings with s/z voice or instruments with too high gain or volume sensitivity. Putting them on vinyl can still be heard.

 

Glare is caused from frequency distortion bringing harshness to from digital audio transport device that can affect all sound. It makes system sound brighter with unnatural slope of transient dynamics as side effects from trying to be too analytical.

 

Sibilance is part of recording and there's nothing much we can do about it except putting de-esser plugin ourselves. Glare isn't part of recording and can be redeemed. Some may mistook those added artifacts as finer details making the music sound more realistic.

 

There's nothing wrong if you like sibilance or glare though. I also used to enjoy those effects as it made my system sound more live and more true to source before too before I know more about real sound performance.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

Thanks!

[Windows X]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

Thanks!

 

With pleasure.

 

Regards,

Keetakawee

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, Windows X said:

JPLAY Femto is paid uPNP server/renderer software for better sound quality, Audiophile uPNP Renderer is free version working similar to JPLAY but accept WAV/FLAC/AIFF

So you would not need both if only playing flac?