Why all hi-fi dealers say PC audio is bad?

[Sergey_S]

Hey guys, 
This is like my first forum ever!

I am a desktop PC music listener.

Few months ago I updated my DAC with NAD M51 to listen with Parasound Halo P3 + New Classic 2125 and KEF iQ9 + Cabasse Santorin 21 (Sub-woofers)
But then I ended up changing the amplification with Musical Fidelity Nu-vista 600, and acoustics with ProAc Response D48R. 

I am wondering, maybe that DAC is too cheap for that amp and those speakers now, and it's worth changing it to something of a higher class to match other components?
How do I know that 'proportion' of prices. Like, some say that amp should be twice expensive than the speakers. Some people say exactly the opposite and so on. The relation to those in DACs' price range is even more of a mystery to me. 
That new equipment is in use less than a month, so maybe it's still 'burning in', but the sound I have now is satisfying, sometimes it's even great, but maybe the "cheap" DAC prevents the rest of the components from being amazing?
I wish I could take somewhere more expensive DAC to listen and to find out myself, but I don't have this opportunity right now and thought I'd try and ask people with experience. 

So! When I start the topic with local dealers, they all as one keep saying that my source (PC) is bad, and almost hanging up on me by the phone, when I say I use my PC as a source
 In short, they are trying to convert me to a streamer listener! ? 
As I work from home and I like the convenience of using my PC to control the music, I'd really like to keep it this way, but if Streamer means a huge boost in sound quality, I'd sacrifice the convenience without thinking twice. 

What would you suggest:

1) Should I get a streamer to match nicely with the rest of my components? If so, what price range it should be taking in account the amp's and acoustics' prices?
I'm thinking of getting PS Audio's Direct Stream DAC.

2) Or maybe there's a way to make my PC sounding amazing that would match a great streamer's sound quality? Of course, I'm ready to any expenses that might be required in this case (I use digital toslink output and Foobar2000).

Thanks! 

[Rt66indierock]

They don't sell PCs they do sell streamers.

[GregWormald]

As above.?

 

Your system is OK as is. The problem with hi-fi is that there is nearly always something better, somewhere. The upgrade path can be never ending, and expensive.

Remember it's all about the musical enjoyment, not the equipment itself; so sit down, play your favourites and explore new music.

Play with your room set-up. Rooms are VERY influential in music replay and getting the best out of your room seems like the next thing for you--before new equipment.

[cjf]

I'm not sure about others experience but from what I've seen many of these Brick/Mortar Local dealers are just so out of touch with anything related to computer audio or anything beyond what they have in store.

 

I've no doubt that this plays a big role in these local shops being all but extinct and why they are fighting to keep the lights on.

 

The reality is, and this is my opinion, most of the streamers are geared for those who are not computer savvy in any way. These folks want to buy something, take it home, open the box, plug it in and be done with it. Nothing wrong with that mind you. I say its probably the best option for most folks who are not computer nerds but make no mistake, folks who know how to build or are willing to try to build there own Computer setup most likely will end up with a far better product in the end

 

It is annoying to hear these dealers talk down on anything not confined within the walls of their store. Its one of the main reasons why I'll only purchase online or from remote dealers who have shown an awareness of their surroundings and competition and thus go out of their way to be on top of the latest and greatest gear.

[Whitigir]

6 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

That's cool! 
so, would that be too much to ask for a full list of the parts I need to build a new PC? 
I'll be getting:  i9-7960X X-Series , RTX 2080 Ti or 1080Ti, but what motherboard with a better clocking system, capacitors, resistors? I have no idea how to look for such motherboard and so on. 

Cheers! 

 

My built PC is as follow

 

Hd-Plex 400W LPS

asus Z370 micro ATX

I7-8700k

970Pro SSD

8gb ddr4

Passive cooling chassis

in coming 1030 graphic card to offload some processing

 

this Built is pretty affordable

 

regarding motherboard, the better it perform in Over clocking, the better it precision on components and parts can be.  If you are into hand modifying stuff, the. You can replace capacitors and so on, but I don’t care much about it.  Whenever new MB comes out, I can just upgrade.

 

RTX2080 and I9 May require liquid coolant of external power supply.  If you can pull that off, my hat is off to you, which is much more bulky and expensive.  It will be a project for when I need to convert on the fly DSD1024 and so on LoL

[Whitigir]

10 minutes ago, Sergey_S said:

Thank you so much, Whitigir! I'll try to build something like that on my next break from work!  
But then you need a proper DAC anyway, right? You said PS Audio (the one I'm about to order tomorrow) isn't bad, but maybe you have something else in mind to suggest. Something from your experience? 

 

I use LKS004, a cheap DAC from China but with the latest ESS9038Pro X 2 and properly designed with good components.  But then, the digital interface will matter too, and I use Gustard U16 for that (which also has ESS DSP chip inside).  I love my DSD512 by HQPlayer into this system

[MrSprout]

I haven't read every reply, but I used a desktop PC as my primary source for a long time, playing files from the local disk and watching movies on it.  I'm now going down the rabbit hole of network streamers and NAS based files and I'm struggling to match the old PC for sound quality.  I also owned the NAD M51 at the same time and it was one of the best DACs I've had.  I should never have sold it.

 

My advice is therefore keep the NAD - it's an excellent DAC.

Your PC with its gaming mobo is absolutely fine.

Foobar with WASAPI event mode is very good and I prefer it to JRiver.

 

But - the USB input on the NAD is its weakest link and its not galvanically isolated.  I got much better results when I inserted a USB/SPDIF converter in the middle and fed the NAD with AES/EBU.  That provided isolation as well as using the best input on the NAD.  At the time I used a HiFace EVO, which is still excellent, but very dependent on power supply and USB cable.  I still have that (unused) but also have a Mutec MC3+ USB, which reclocks my Blu-ray player too.  I don't know what your budget is, but that's where I'd start.

 

In terms of the PC I found that separating the HDD/SSD from the power line going to the motherboard helped clean up the sound significantly.  That was also accomplished (later on) by using a more modern Seasonic PSU with its separate power outputs for the drives, so you may have that problem covered already.  I'm not convinced the Seasonic sounds as good as I remember the old Enermax sounding (with separate PSU feeding the drives), but I can't A/B them any more.

 

The final change I'd recommend is isolating the ATX PSU in the PC from everything else, either by putting it onto an online UPS (Power Inspired AG500 or similar), or isolating the hi-fi instead. Just make sure the isolation device for the PC (if you do it that way around) has sufficient power for your PC.

[MrSprout]

2 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

That's also not quite clear for me. My PC is connected to a separate UPS, and hi-fi components to a separate Power conditioner, which I'm planning to change for PS Audio's Power plant 15 as soon as I can. Is this what you mean by the isolation, or I'm confusing everything?  

 

 

Nope, that's exactly what I meant for power filtering - you're just way ahead of me there!  I use a PS Audio P3, an older regenerator, and it makes a big difference to sound quality although it doesn't stop much noise coming through.  I have to use a different filter in conjunction with it to deal with that.  The newer PS Audios do quote noise isolation measurements, so you may be better off. 

 

The best mains filter I found for the NAD M51 was the Running Springs Elgar, although that will sap the bass from any amplifiers you plug into it so use it for source components only.  They sell bigger models for high current devices.  I ran the usb card, usb/spdif converter and NAD DAC off the Elgar when I had it, with the PC on the Power Inspired AG1500.  I sold the Elgar when I sold the NAD as I wanted a linear powered solution right through to the DAC and the PS Audio worked better for that.

 

In terms of HDD power you'll have one for the OS, which I'm assuming is internal and runs off a molex or sata connector, and then the external drive for music.  I hacked some cables and ran the internal molex/sata connector off a separate external PSU so no drives were connected to the ATX PSU.  Your ATX may not need that kind of work if it already isolates the lines, but I can't tell if it does. 

 

The USB attached storage is a different problem as it may affect the quality of the USB audio output, given the drive's power and data are also running through the same USB channels.  Is the external disk separately powered, or does it take its power from the USB socket?  Either way, it might be worth experimenting with drive connected vs not connected once you have everything else set up and see if you can hear the difference.  I got best results with just internal sata drives and all of them externally powered.

 

Take my views with a pinch of salt though.  I ended up with a computer with five linear power supplies that took up a full equipment rack to house and then dismantled it all because it took up too much space. ?  I'm looking for a small one-box solution offering similar sound quality now but I'm struggling and they seem to be rather expensive.  Top of my list at the moment are the new Innuos servers, such as the Zen and Zenith mk3, so those may be a better way forwards if you only want audio playback.  They still use USB out, so if you stick with the NAD then you'll want a USB/SPDIF converter anyway.

 

 

[Miska]

On 11/30/2018 at 11:03 PM, diecaster said:

General purpose PCs have crappy USB implementations that negatively affect sound quality.

 

Not necessarily at all. It depends more on the PC's PSU (in case the USB bus power is used at all in first place) and also to some extent on the motherboard implementation. For example Gigabyte has motherboards that have USB ports specifically designed as low-noise for audio use (they call it DAC-UP USB). Those ports also have configuration option to turn off the bus power completely. Data connection itself is fine. That's for example how I'm connecting my T+A DAC8 DSD to my Windows 10 server.

 

From another aspect, it heavily depends on DAC implementation if it is affected by "crappy USB implementation". DAC designer should assume that the USB source has horribly crappy implementation and make sure it doesn't affect sound quality. However, this is not always the case...

 

So it is not possible to generalize these things. Result is bad only if both ends are crappy. If either or both are good the result is good.

 

At DAC side, ground connection tends to be more problematic. But that is only partially related to USB implementation, and only at DAC side. This can be helped with network endpoints, assuming use of unshielded or optical network cable.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

On 11/28/2018 at 12:53 PM, Sergey_S said:

So! When I start the topic with local dealers, they all as one keep saying that my source (PC) is bad, and almost hanging up on me by the phone, when I say I use my PC as a source
 In short, they are trying to convert me to a streamer listener! ? 

The reason is simple:  They sell streamers and do not sell PCs. 

[davide256]

mmm, if you are using Toslink, you are taking a crap shoot on whether both ends gave you off the shelf components or  made a better effort

than the minimum (weak) standard. Start there. As to PC, another crap shoot unless you are very savvy on motherboard design and power supply.

May want to share what you have for a PC and see what the PC devotees can tell you.

[Sergey_S]

 

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

mmm, if you are using Toslink, you are taking a crap shoot on whether both ends gave you off the shelf components or  made a better effort

than the minimum (weak) standard. Start there. As to PC, another crap shoot unless you are very savvy on motherboard design and power supply.

May want to share what you have for a PC and see what the PC devotees can tell you.

Thanks, guys!
I hear some whistle via brand-y USB cable, and it's gone via toslink. No difference in sound noted. Just the absence of noise via optical.

So, my PC (it's a bit old, from 08.2012) is essentially this: 
 Chieftec APS-850C

 Asus Rampage IV Formula (s2011, X79, PCI-Ex 16)
 Intel Core i7-3930K 3.2GHz/12MB (BX80619I73930K) s2011 Box
 

 Asus PCI-Ex GeForce GTX 680 2048MB GDDR5 (256bit) (1058/6008)
 Crucial M4 128GB 2.5" SATAIII MLC (CT128M4SSD1CCA)

 

 Kingston DDR3-2400 16384MB PC3-19200 (Kit of 4x4096) HyperX Genesis 

I will probably build a new one in a few months with all latest generations parts. And as I am quite new to a 'computer audio', I would be grateful to hear if there are some components that are affecting sound in particular. Say, Motherboard from some company sounds better than from the other  ? Or, what would be suggested power supply, considering top motherboard, processor, graphic card, etc...? Is there a connection between excess power and grater sound? Or maybe there are some computer audiophile components that I might not be aware of. 
 

1 hour ago, GregWormald said:

As above.?

 

Your system is OK as is. The problem with hi-fi is that there is nearly always something better, somewhere. The upgrade path can be never ending, and expensive.

Remember it's all about the musical enjoyment, not the equipment itself; so sit down, play your favourites and explore new music.

Play with your room set-up. Rooms are VERY influential in music replay and getting the best out of your room seems like the next thing for you--before new equipment.

Thanks! I totally agree! And yes, that what I was saying to my wife: "the next component is the room"
It was for me only recent discovery that room matters, and that speakers and a listener positioning has a huge impact. 

I do enjoy the sound from my PC listed above, and I also have Mac Book Pro from late 2017, and recently I connected it to my Nu-Vista 600 with the cheapest analog cable (3,5 mini-jack - RCA) and it sounded damn great! I didn't hear ANY difference from the sound coming through my DAC via 'brand-y' XLR cables to that same amp. So I thought, either it's a crappy DAC, or that Mac Book Pro is too good!  

Maybe I just didn't get used to a new gear, maybe it's still not burnt in or whatever, but so far it doesn't make any practical difference for me. I played few same songs on both machines starting at the same time, and asked my wife to switch inputs on remote control so that I wouldn't see it. And I've got confused! 
Though I do hear a significant difference between analog audio coming from my main PC, I couldn't hear it via Mac Book Pro with Windows 10 installed on it. No enchantments, same Foobar2000. 

[cjf]

So before diving into what may or may not need to be changed with your current setup please explain exactly the chain of connectivity and playback you use today?

 

I see you mention FooBar2000 as the playback software. Where are the music files stored? How are you connecting the above PC to the NAD DAC? Is it all your gear in the same room next to each other? Tell us about the room itself. What are the dimensions? Where are the speakers, your listening chair located in regards to the room boundaries?

 

At a high level, I see nothing wrong with your current choice of gear, including the computer itself.

 

Can you better describe what your main complaint is with the existing system?

[Sergey_S]

1 hour ago, cjf said:

So before diving into what may or may not need to be changed with your current setup please explain exactly the chain of connectivity and playback you use today?

 

I see you mention FooBar2000 as the playback software. Where are the music files stored? How are you connecting the above PC to the NAD DAC? Is it all your gear in the same room next to each other? Tell us about the room itself. What are the dimensions? Where are the speakers, your listening chair located in regards to the room boundaries?

 

At a high level, I see nothing wrong with your current choice of gear, including the computer itself.

 

Can you better describe what your main complaint is with the existing system?

Oh, I have no complains, thanks for asking!
 

I auditioned those speakers, cables and the amp before purchasing, and I like them a lot. 

As I mentioned, I have purchased the DAC to match another system and assumed that my DAC's resolution isn't a good match for this amplifier and those speakers. That's why I raised that question about possible new DAC/Streamer purchasing. 

As for the room, it's 3.5 x 3.5m squared room!  I've heard it's the worse, but it's ok, as I will most likely move to another place in a few months. Though, I don't really understand why it deems bad. Nothing particular bothers me so far.

The ceiling is 2.8 - 2.9m. Naked walls, laminated floor. Some furniture, TV panel, table, sofa are in the room. 

My speakers position is about 0.5m from the front wall (behind the speakers) and around 0.75m from the side walls and they are slightly toed in. I'm sitting at around 1m from the wall behind me. So, the distance between the speakers is around 2.5m, and from speakers to the listener around 3m. Took me some time to find this 'spot'. 

The amplifier positioned on the same TV-kind of shelf with the PC system unit.
 

The DAC is connected to PC via MT-Power OPTICAL DIAMOND 3m, but I'm about to get AUDIOQUEST opt 1.5m OPTILINK DIAMOND in couple of weeks. Not sure why, but just in case. 

All other cables, including speaker caples, XLR, power cords are Nordost 'Red Dawn'.
Only PC is connected with some thick green AudioQuest power cord, but I don't recall the model. 


All this connected to a power conditioner Audiolot ALF3000S. And this one is also wired to the wall with Nordost 'Red Dawn' power cord.

I'm also thinking of getting PS Audio's Power Plant 15, but so damn expensive, and I'm in too much doubts whether I will hear an improvement. Maybe in the future, I'll eventually get one. Unless some of you, guys, have experience with that thing and will strongly recommend to purchase Power Plant. 

All my files are stored on the external 5Tb HDD, but I'm planning to move them all to a few SSDs soon. 
My music files are mostly WAVs, then FLACs, few DSDs, and some hi-rez audio (also in WAV).

I also don't mind good mp3s and internet radios in this format with 320kbps bitrate. 

Cheers!

[davide256]

12 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

 

Thanks, guys!
I hear some whistle via brand-y USB cable, and it's gone via toslink. No difference in sound noted. Just the absence of noise via optical.

So, my PC (it's a bit old, from 08.2012) is essentially this: 
 Chieftec APS-850C

 Asus Rampage IV Formula (s2011, X79, PCI-Ex 16)
 Intel Core i7-3930K 3.2GHz/12MB (BX80619I73930K) s2011 Box
 

 Asus PCI-Ex GeForce GTX 680 2048MB GDDR5 (256bit) (1058/6008)
 Crucial M4 128GB 2.5" SATAIII MLC (CT128M4SSD1CCA)

 

 Kingston DDR3-2400 16384MB PC3-19200 (Kit of 4x4096) HyperX Genesis 

I will probably build a new one in a few months with all latest generations parts. And as I am quite new to a 'computer audio', I would be grateful to hear if there are some components that are affecting sound in particular. Say, Motherboard from some company sounds better than from the other  ? Or, what would be suggested power supply, considering top motherboard, processor, graphic card, etc...? Is there a connection between excess power and grater sound? Or maybe there are some computer audiophile components that I might not be aware of. 
 

Thanks! I totally agree! And yes, that what I was saying to my wife: "the next component is the room"
It was for me only recent discovery that room matters, and that speakers and a listener positioning has a huge impact. 

I do enjoy the sound from my PC listed above, and I also have Mac Book Pro from late 2017, and recently I connected it to my Nu-Vista 600 with the cheapest analog cable (3,5 mini-jack - RCA) and it sounded damn great! I didn't hear ANY difference from the sound coming through my DAC via 'brand-y' XLR cables to that same amp. So I thought, either it's a crappy DAC, or that Mac Book Pro is too good!  

Maybe I just didn't get used to a new gear, maybe it's still not burnt in or whatever, but so far it doesn't make any practical difference for me. I played few same songs on both machines starting at the same time, and asked my wife to switch inputs on remote control so that I wouldn't see it. And I've got confused! 
Though I do hear a significant difference between analog audio coming from my main PC, I couldn't hear it via Mac Book Pro with Windows 10 installed on it. No enchantments, same Foobar2000. 

 

I don't see any compromises here on PC quality... age doesn't matter.

 

The  challenges with PC are software and component generated electrical noise. Mac's have historically had an advantage for lower electrical noise because they

are 1 shop designs.

[cjf]

14 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

The DAC is connected to PC via MT-Power OPTICAL DIAMOND 3m, but I'm about to get AUDIOQUEST opt 1.5m OPTILINK DIAMOND in couple of weeks. Not sure why, but just in case. 

All other cables, including speaker caples, XLR, power cords are Nordost 'Red Dawn'.
Only PC is connected with some thick green AudioQuest power cord, but I don't recall the model. 


All my files are stored on the external 5Tb HDD, but I'm planning to move them all to a few SSDs soon. 
My music files are mostly WAVs, then FLACs, few DSDs, and some hi-rez audio (also in WAV).

I also don't mind good mp3s and internet radios in this format with 320kbps bitrate. 

Cheers!

Thanks for the additional details.

 

So at first glance I see one potential issue. Of course I'm only going by the pictures and the system description provided so maybe I'm wrong but here goes.

 

I'm specifically looking at the method being used to connect your PC to the DAC. As far as I am aware, the only way you could use an Optical Cable to connect from PC to DAC would be if you were first sending the audio signal THRU the onboard Sound Card first. This is a problem IMO. There are far too many ways for that signal to be altered when fed THRU a sound card first.

 

I would recommend as step one, find a good USB 2.0 Certified cable and run that between the DAC and one of the unused USB Ports on the PC. If using Windows, you may need to install a driver first if you wish to stream beyond 24/96.

 

Next phases would be removal of that Green AC Cord on the PC and replacing it with a BOG Standard 3 Prong AC Cable.

 

You mentioned some noise in the system. That would have to be tackled as well. Go back to basics on the power cords as a first step to see if the noise goes away.

[Sergey_S]

3 minutes ago, cjf said:

Thanks for the additional details.

 

So at first glance I see one potential issue. Of course I'm only going by the pictures and the system description provided so maybe I'm wrong but here goes.

 

I'm specifically looking at the method being used to connect your PC to the DAC. As far as I am aware, the only way you could use an Optical Cable to connect from PC to DAC would be if you were first sending the audio signal THRU the onboard Sound Card first. This is a problem IMO. There are far too many ways for that signal to be altered when fed THRU a sound card first.

 

I would recommend as step one, find a good USB 2.0 Certified cable and run that between the DAC and one of the unused USB Ports on the PC. If using Windows, you may need to install a driver first if you wish to stream beyond 24/96.

 

Next phases would be removal of that Green AC Cord on the PC and replacing it with a BOG Standard 3 Prong AC Cable.

 

You mentioned some noise in the system. That would have to be tackled as well. Go back to basics on the power cords as a first step to see if the noise goes away.

Thanks, cjf!

I connected that green power cord just few days ago, when I've got the rest of other power cords. Before that it was connected via standard power cable and the noise was there back then. Maybe I should actually try USB cable NOW with this new wiring :D.
Thanks for the suggestion on BOG power cord.

However, the cable I used to connect PC and DAC is AUDIOQUEST hd 3.0m, USB FOREST. Maybe it's just too long!!! I've just tried a simple USB cable that comes with UPS and there's no noise via USB now!

By the way, that Audioquest cable works with my PC/DAC only via USB 3.0 output. Maybe this was also an issue (I have windows 8.1 installed right now).

Say, the USB issue has been solved, and I'll get a proper USB cable.
But again, sound/music wise, I don't hear any difference between USB and Optical. Also, connecting this DAC via this Optical cable I already able to stream 24/192, which wasn't possible with a previous DAC. I actually have recordings which do not allow playback if device doesn't support 24/192, and via this set-up it works perfect. 

Thanks to everyone for the responses and suggestions! That helped a lot! 

 

[cjf]

3 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

Thanks, cjf!

I connected that green power cord just few days ago, when I've got the rest of other power cords. Before that it was connected via standard power cable and the noise was there back then. Maybe I should actually try USB cable NOW with this new wiring :D.
Thanks for the suggestion on BOG power cord.

However, the cable I used to connect PC and DAC is AUDIOQUEST hd 3.0m, USB FOREST. Maybe it's just too long!!! I've just tried a simple USB cable that comes with UPS and there's no noise via USB now!

By the way, that Audioquest cable works with my PC/DAC only via USB 3.0 output. Maybe this was also an issue (I have windows 8.1 installed right now).

Say, the USB issue has been solved, and I'll get a proper USB cable.
But again, sound/music wise, I don't hear any difference between USB and Optical. Also, connecting this DAC via this Optical cable I already able to stream 24/192, which wasn't possible with a previous DAC. I actually have recordings which do not allow playback if device doesn't support 24/192, and via this set-up it works perfect. 

Thanks to everyone for the responses and suggestions! That helped a lot! 

 

One final thought...

 

I'm surprised your not hearing a big difference between the Optical vrs USB connection method. This make me wonder if all your Windows Audio settings are correctly configured. 

 

Have you by chance visited the NAD website and downloaded the USB Audio driver they provide?

https://nadelectronics.com/product/m51-direct-digital-dac/

 

It mentions this note:

 

"In order to stream your computer audio via M51, ensure that the Sound or Audio Device settings of your computer is set to "NAD Audio 2.0 Output".

 

I suspect that without this driver Windows may attempt to apply its own mixer settings and volume control to the audio stream. You will certainly want to make sure this NAD Output is also chosen within the FooBar App as well.

 

[Sergey_S]

22 minutes ago, cjf said:

One final thought...

 

I'm surprised your not hearing a big difference between the Optical vrs USB connection method. This make me wonder if all your Windows Audio settings are correctly configured. 

 

Have you by chance visited the NAD website and downloaded the USB Audio driver they provide?

https://nadelectronics.com/product/m51-direct-digital-dac/

 

It mentions this note:

 

"In order to stream your computer audio via M51, ensure that the Sound or Audio Device settings of your computer is set to "NAD Audio 2.0 Output".

 

I suspect that without this driver Windows may attempt to apply its own mixer settings and volume control to the audio stream. You will certainly want to make sure this NAD Output is also chosen within the FooBar App as well.

 

Yup! Did exactly what is says, but with that too long 3 meters USB cable it didn't work via USB 2.0, and connected somehow only via USB 3.0. Of course,  NAD's  driver has been installed. Shorter simple cable worked perfectly via USB 2.0.

I did notice a difference via previous, cheaper DAC. USB sounded noticeably better to me. But with this DAC (NAD M51) all types of connections (Optical, USB and HDMI (didn't get to check Coaxial)) sound absolutely similar to my ear. I believe it's because of the way this DAC works with the data.  Later I also read somewhere, that the higher class DAC - the less they are affected by a digital cable. I don't know if it's true. I'll find out it later when I'll get a new Toslink and new USB cables.

And yes, I chose NAD output via USB or Optical, when I use Optical. Seems like this makes more sense than just using 'primary driver' option.

Do you, guys, know, if foobar has an option/settings to play music with the same sample rate it's been recorded, rather than everything up-sampling it to 24/192? Or this is ok to keep it this way? I know there are some players can do this, but I am not sure if it's a necessity.

[davide256]

2 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

Yup! Did exactly what is says, but with that too long 3 meters USB cable it didn't work via USB 2.0, and connected somehow only via USB 3.0. Of course,  NAD's  driver has been installed. Shorter simple cable worked perfectly via USB 2.0.

I did notice a difference via previous, cheaper DAC. USB sounded noticeably better to me. But with this DAC (NAD M51) all types of connections (Optical, USB and HDMI (didn't get to check Coaxial)) sound absolutely similar to my ear. I believe it's because of the way this DAC works with the data.  Later I also read somewhere, that the higher class DAC - the less they are affected by a digital cable. I don't know if it's true. I'll find out it later when I'll get a new Toslink and new USB cables.

And yes, I chose NAD output via USB or Optical, when I use Optical. Seems like this makes more sense than just using 'primary driver' option.

Do you, guys, know, if foobar has an option/settings to play music with the same sample rate it's been recorded, rather than everything up-sampling it to 24/192? Or this is ok to keep it this way? I know there are some players can do this, but I am not sure if it's a necessity.

The default is same or rate limited... you actually have to use a plugin in Foobar2000 to upsample. Just disable the plugin

 

If the USB doesn't sound better than Toslink, that's not a good sign. I'd audition the PS Audio DAC, instead of the streamer. You should be  hearing a lot more detail and transients with USB

[Sergey_S]

2 minutes ago, davide256 said:

The default is same or rate limited... you actually have to use a plugin in Foobar2000 to upsample. Just disable the plugin

 

If the USB doesn't sound better than Toslink, that's not a good sign. I'd audition the PS Audio DAC, instead of the streamer. You should be  hearing a lot more detail and transients with USB

Thanks, Davide256, I'll try that! 

[esldude]

Actually no, Toslink doesn't automatically sound worse than other connections. 

 

USB should be your best possible connection. You say it works and you've gotten rid of the noise issue.  Use USB and don't look back.  If Toslink sounds the same to you, and you prefer it, then use it. 

 

I would say if using Foobar see that it is using WASAPI.  That can make a difference. 

[beerandmusic]

I would move the pc out of the listening room.

[Sergey_S]

11 hours ago, esldude said:

Actually no, Toslink doesn't automatically sound worse than other connections. 

 

USB should be your best possible connection. You say it works and you've gotten rid of the noise issue.  Use USB and don't look back.  If Toslink sounds the same to you, and you prefer it, then use it. 

 

I would say if using Foobar see that it is using WASAPI.  That can make a difference. 

Thanks for that! Just installed WASAPI component. There's so many options now! What do I choose?


 

7 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I would move the pc out of the listening room.

 Me too! But that's my entire point to keep it there. To work and to listen to a music. 

[cjf]

3 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

Thanks for that! Just installed WASAPI component. There's so many options now! What do I choose?


 

 Me too! But that's my entire point to keep it there. To work and to listen to a music. 

Based on this screenshot I'm not seeing anything related to your NAD DAC. Was the DAC still plugged in via USB at the time this screenshot was taken? I'm curious what the "Primary Sound Driver" is pointing to.

 

If your using Windows, go into your "Audio/Sound" menu via Control Panel and take a few screenshots of whats going on in there.

 

Under most conditions I would agree that for basic listening purposes the Optical Output would be fine.....BUT...in this case I suspect using the Optical Output on your PC actually means your are feeding your music bits....THRU...the crappy onboard sound card first, before the signal gets sent to your NAD DAC. Be sure to unplug the optical cable when using USB Out to ensure nothing is being pushed thru your onboard sound card

[davide256]

3 hours ago, Sergey_S said:

Thanks for that! Just installed WASAPI component. There's so many options now! What do I choose?


 

 Me too! But that's my entire point to keep it there. To work and to listen to a music. 

yup, believe @cjf is right. Plug your USB connection into the NAD, then check to see if it shows in Foobar2000... if it doesn't you need to fix that so you can select it

as output. Once you have that working, event driven WASAPI behaved best in my experience. I also found this old thread discussing setup with NAD51