beerandmusic Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 11 hours ago, davide256 said: One of the reasons I stopped reading Audiogon was the other extreme, the "pointy hat" crowd. Disagree on "measurable"... that means you have made the "assume" mistake, that you already know root cause. Anyone doing research better have a good chain of root cause research before they claim they know how to measure. Observable, repeatable, and verifiable comes first. In discovery you often have to build new measurement tools because the old ones don't apply. i agree with "verifiable", not observation, because observations are frequently wrong and personal....i don't think you need human measurements to be verifiable, but would like to see at least repeatable 80%+ consensus to even consider verifiable....and i am not even talking consensus as to which is better, just a noted difference, and in a professional environment...not chit-chat. Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 51 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: i agree with "verifiable", not observation, because observations are frequently wrong and personal....i don't think you need human measurements to be verifiable, but would like to see at least repeatable 80%+ consensus to even consider verifiable....and i am not even talking consensus as to which is better, just a noted difference, and in a professional environment...not chit-chat. An evaluation of audio gear not based on competent human evaluator is inherently flawed... our measurement tools can't predict observable differences other than at the most basic level of audio performance.The difficulty is identifying the skill level of the human evaluator and their strengths and weaknesses. I try to keep track of different reviewers, their strengths and biases. In general when I see 2 known good reviewers praising a piece of gear at the level I'm interested in, it starts to get my attention, if 3 then it becomes a must to audition. https://www.dailyaudiophile.com/ look&listen 1 Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, davide256 said: An evaluation of audio gear not based on competent human evaluator is inherently flawed... our measurement tools can't predict observable differences other than at the most basic level of audio performance.The difficulty is identifying the skill level of the human evaluator and their strengths and weaknesses. I try to keep track of different reviewers, their strengths and biases. In general when I see 2 known good reviewers praising a piece of gear at the level I'm interested in, it starts to get my attention, if 3 then it becomes a must to audition. https://www.dailyaudiophile.com/ I don't trust reviewers. They are paid and rarely will give a negative review (except for maybe big box that don't give incentives like boutique shops). I have even spoken to retired reviewers that suggested they are "FREE AT LAST" to give honest opinions. Besides reviewers like different things... If there are not APPARENT improvements in a comparison test without needing a DBT, it probably isn't worth buying imho. If there are 2 or move positive professional reviews, there are likely incentives given to 2 or more reviewers. I agree you have to start somewhere to make your short lists, but I don't feel it is necessary on digital front ends. I would start with reviews that know and understand measurements and use them in their reviews and aren't paid or incentivized by mfr...problem is even if they are, they will try to hide it. They all have relationships in one way or another. Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 17 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: I don't trust reviewers. They are paid and rarely will give a negative review (except for maybe big box that don't give incentives like boutique shops). I have even spoken to retired reviewers that suggested they are "FREE AT LAST" to give honest opinions. Besides reviewers like different things... If there are not APPARENT improvements in a comparison test without needing a DBT, it probably isn't worth buying imho. If there are 2 or move positive professional reviews, there are likely incentives given to 2 or more reviewers. I agree you have to start somewhere to make your short lists, but I don't feel it is necessary on digital front ends. I would start with reviews that know and understand measurements and use them in their reviews and aren't paid or incentivized by mfr...problem is even if they are, they will try to hide it. They all have relationships in one way or another. useful reviewers compare and contrast to other gear, constrained reviewers don't. We all have relationships... only a minority are dishonest. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 7 minutes ago, davide256 said: useful reviewers compare and contrast to other gear, constrained reviewers don't. We all have relationships... only a minority are dishonest. I wouldn't use the word dishonest, i would say they are "VERY CAREFUL WITH THEIR CHOSEN WORDS"....not talking about in detail but as to serve their purpose....to continue to be employed. They also won't compare negatively to any kit they have a current relationship with. Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 BTW, I pulled ISO Regen out of the chain last night, normally its the sort of change where I wince and put it back in. Trying to sort out +/- now, amazed the Audiolinux on a generic PC server makes such a difference even without running in RAM. Getting a NUC so I can run server in RAM is my next goal. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 3 minutes ago, davide256 said: BTW, I pulled ISO Regen out of the chain last night, normally its the sort of change where I wince and put it back in. Trying to sort out +/- now, amazed the Audiolinux on a generic PC server makes such a difference even without running in RAM. Getting a NUC so I can run server in RAM is my next goal. can you clarify these statements? 1. are you saying you don't hear much of change without the ISO regen since you switched to AL? 2. What generic pc are you using? I am going to try AL on an asus vivo vm60....i am not sure that there should be any differnce what soever based on your pc hardware? Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 42 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: can you clarify these statements? 1. are you saying you don't hear much of change without the ISO regen since you switched to AL? 2. What generic pc are you using? I am going to try AL on an asus vivo vm60....i am not sure that there should be any differnce what soever based on your pc hardware? 1) I'm saying that with AL and Roonserver the difference between w/wo ISO Regen is not so clear... I need to play around with power supply isolation to see if the ISO Regen is going to stay. 2) PC is an older MOBO, ASRock 960GM/U3S3 FX, AMD 8350 processor with 8gb RAM... maybe equivalent to an I3 today but lacking newer HW support. If your BIOS supports UEFI, you can do better, run AL in RAM, I can't. Processor speed matters for DSP use, library size. I'd like to get an i5 NUC just to be safe. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 ISO Regen is out, it didn't really help with AL server in use, even with best possible ISO Regen setup. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
smodtactical Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 7 hours ago, davide256 said: ISO Regen is out, it didn't really help with AL server in use, even with best possible ISO Regen setup. Seems like your chain is already super optimized so ISO regen with lps just couldn't squeeze out any more SQ. Did you notice a gain in quality with microrendu and your AL server vs just using usb into a dac ? Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 3 hours ago, smodtactical said: Seems like your chain is already super optimized so ISO regen with lps just couldn't squeeze out any more SQ. Did you notice a gain in quality with microrendu and your AL server vs just using usb into a dac ? huh? i thought the purpose of AL is to replace rendu or sotm? Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 3 hours ago, smodtactical said: Seems like your chain is already super optimized so ISO regen with lps just couldn't squeeze out any more SQ. Did you notice a gain in quality with microrendu and your AL server vs just using usb into a dac ? USB out from my PC has always been bad, AL didn't change that. If it wasn't an ATX power supply, possible the outcome could have differed. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
audiobomber Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 I used to have a Cambridge Audio DiscMagic transport and IsoMagic DAC. They had provision for a separate clock link via Toslink cable. Connecting the clock link made no difference to bass or treble or soundstage, or anything most people would look for. The difference was in PRaT. Connecting the clock link made the music more compelling. I have no idea what the measurements would show, but this was clearly a demonstration of the effect of jitter. Once I tried the clock link, there was no going back. The clock link had one function, to slave the transport timing to the DAC clock. I2S does the same trick. Properly implemented asynchronous USB connection avoids the issue by buffering, so again just one clock controls timing. A separate transport and DAC connected via a single S/PDIF connection is a poor implementation. Main System: QNAP TS-451+ NAS > Silent Angel Bonn N8 > Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2 > Corning SMF with Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFPs > Uptone EtherREGEN > exaSound PlayPoint and e32 Mk-II DAC > Meitner MTR-101 Plus monoblocks > Bamberg S5-MTM sealed standmount speakers. Crown XLi 1500 powering AV123 Rocket UFW10 stereo subwoofers Upgraded power on all switches, renderer and DAC. Link to comment
Abtr Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 On 11/21/2018 at 1:55 AM, beerandmusic said: I really don't mind subjective opinions inre the dac and beyond, but my logic tells me that we should be able to be "objective" up to the dac's input before conversion. We should be able to measure jitter at the dac input and clearly see if one solution is cleaner than another? Or is there something else besides music and jitter before the dac input that is not measurable? Stated simple, I think the main problem is electrical noise from the computer/streamer making its way to the DAC (or DDC), thus introducing jitter in the conversion stage. USB is particularly liable to this. With USB an electrically quieter source will generally sound better. Both computer/streamer hardware and software/OS can make a difference in this respect. Current audio system Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Abtr said: Stated simple, I think the main problem is electrical noise from the computer/streamer making its way to the DAC (or DDC), thus introducing jitter in the conversion stage. USB is particularly liable to this. With USB an electrically quieter source will generally sound better. Both computer/streamer hardware and software/OS can make a difference in this respect. if i didn't totally misunderstand Miska's response, for many/most dacs they can deal with the jitter and clocking noise...i am thinking a fiber -> fiber interface (eliminating usb all together) may be a better solution than what we have now. Link to comment
Abtr Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 10 hours ago, beerandmusic said: if i didn't totally misunderstand Miska's response, for many/most dacs they can deal with the jitter and clocking noise...i am thinking a fiber -> fiber interface (eliminating usb all together) may be a better solution than what we have now. Jitter is no problem with asynchronous USB. What is "clocking noise"? I don't know what response from Miska you refer to, but I'm talking about electrical noise (not jitter) from the PC, originating from the power supply, hard disk operation, fan and general digital processing, making its way to the DAC and interfering with the DA conversion. There are literally thousands of posts about this problem and solutions on this site and other audio sites. Eliminating USB altogether may be an option but then you can't play e.g. DSD. Current audio system Link to comment
Summit Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 We have many different ways to deal with noise and jitter and some people use special USB devices and some use other devices that work with other sorts of protocols. If ONE way of sending digital data/music or if ONE digital audio formats was always clearly superior to all others we wouldn’t have so many different forms of digital protocol/format. In the end it depends on many thing which one we will choose. Some protocol/format is better on some types of noise while another is better on others. The same with jitter and phase noise. It’s not as easy as to say that one type of protocol/format is better on some types of noise profile neither, because different digital gear or audio systems may handle noise, jitter or whatever vary different because of their design, bandwidth and so on. This jungle of data streams and transmission protocols is indeed confusing and not unique to only digital audio. Sometimes, or even most of the times, it’s the implementation and which other gear you use that really matters. Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Abtr said: Jitter is no problem with asynchronous USB. What is "clocking noise"? I don't know what response from Miska you refer to, but I'm talking about electrical noise (not jitter) from the PC, originating from the power supply, hard disk operation, fan and general digital processing, making its way to the DAC and interfering with the DA conversion. There are literally thousands of posts about this problem and solutions on this site and other audio sites. Eliminating USB altogether may be an option but then you can't play e.g. DSD. you can do dsd over enet, been doing it for 8 years....or you can use jabbrs solution of clearfog base. i really think ether fiber is best way to go from what i have read. Link to comment
jabbr Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Abtr said: Jitter is no problem with asynchronous USB. What is "clocking noise"? I don't know what response from Miska you refer to, but I'm talking about electrical noise (not jitter) from the PC, originating from the power supply, hard disk operation, fan and general digital processing, making its way to the DAC and interfering with the DA conversion. There are literally thousands of posts about this problem and solutions on this site and other audio sites. Eliminating USB altogether may be an option but then you can't play e.g. DSD. Yes I agree that noise from the PC transmitted via the USB interface is far far far more likely to be an issue — and also realize that the so-called galvanic isolators do not isolate common mode noise — so the benefit of a network streamer is that it can be a very low power and consequently low noise device. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Lebouwsky Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 On 11/21/2018 at 1:55 AM, beerandmusic said: So many wagons to jump on, but i still haven't jumped.... Quote Maybe i will just wait and see what the next bandwagon will be, and skip this one also.. Yes computer audio evolves, just like computers do. My first computer was an MSX, playing Konami sport games. Right now I’m enyoing my last years hot config sotm clock/ usb card based server. There are better streamers out now but I don’t mind, I’m proud of what I’ve build with my own hands. And boy does it sound better than my previous Sotm sms200 2016 hot config. What a great hobby we’re in, which you’ll probably never jump on to. What’s your motivation anyway to be so active on this forum? It feels quite lonely to me. Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 38 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said: Yes computer audio evolves, just like computers do. My first computer was an MSX, playing Konami sport games. Right now I’m enyoing my last years hot config sotm clock/ usb card based server. There are better streamers out now but I don’t mind, I’m proud of what I’ve build with my own hands. And boy does it sound better than my previous Sotm sms200 2016 hot config. What a great hobby we’re in, which you’ll probably never jump on to. What’s your motivation anyway to be so active on this forum? It feels quite lonely to me. wow, you built an sotm with your own hands....impressive... I am sure i have tried a ton more hardware than you have....i haven't jumped on many usb solutions is what I was saying...I am here to "try" and stay on top of what is worth buying (what is objective) within my budget....looks like fiber will be my next investment. Link to comment
Lebouwsky Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, beerandmusic said: I am sure i have tried a ton more hardware than you have... Please share your experience, looking forward to it, no sarcasm. Link to comment
davide256 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Discovered that for $89 I can upgrade my PC server to 16gb, RAM should arrive today allowing me to boot AL/LXQT to RAM. Sadly the NUC7CJYH Celeron NUC is out of stock everywhere, I really want to get my hands on one and compare it as AL endpoint to microRendu. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 42 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said: Please share your experience, looking forward to it, no sarcasm. I jumped on the DSD bandwagon in it's infancy. I found soon afterwards that native dsd sounds best streamed over enet. Could have been i just had a noisy pc, but i found that using a cheap used bluray player as a dlna endpoint sounded better than most dacs via USB inre native dsd. (that was 7-8 years ago before people even talked about noise on usb bus) I have tried about 10 DACs/network players, about 100 speakers, and about 20 amps over a few year period. I go to local shows and events... I found that I heard a much larger improvement going from an $800 amp to a $3K amp (used), than i did trying all the different dacs. I guess I didn't experience all the issues with reported usb and usb toys because i jumped on enet within a month or two of first playing with DSD...so I avoided that all together. I am used to being an outcast...since when i started here 8 years ago, i swore by DSD and ENET and just about everyone told me neither would survive. I even said that i was williing to wager that AVRs would support ENET and DSD back then when i was laughed off this board. I also have been predicting network players will be the common device to replace the cd players of yesteryear before there were even any on the market. I retired at 55 years old, so I am on a very fixed budget, so I am very frugal with my money (but i do enjoy san diego weather for free), and with my technical background in computers (retired as a server blade and vmware engineer), I lean a little more toward objective views. I do have ADD, so i admit i am "scatter-brained", but I also am very smart, so i don't really care when people challenge my intelligence. I don't have any audio engineering, and very little electronics background, besides reading this forum, which is why i enjoy this site...there is a wealth of knowlege here, if you learn who to listen to....I have a lot of respect for Jabbr and Miska....(marce and mansr minus the sarcasm), and superdad and barrows (minus their company bias). There is a lot of knowledge here among many others, but those are the ones i trust and listen to more than others. I think the altair (ultra low noise clocks, enet port, lps and audio out) is a hard deal to beat, and hope to see a million similar devices on the market. A lot of the stuff going on this site, i feel are band-aids... I usually am very active in "spurts"....i see whats up, bouncing around different threads, and then i take a break....I almost missed about the Audio-linux because it was hidden in the "massive improvement maze thread", so i had to create a few threads so i can revisit later. I recommend audio-linux too....i don't invest in much (hqplayer, and now audio-inux, and likely fiber soon)....but i do feel i squeeze what i need out of this site. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 you can also wait for 5G Link to comment
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