Faith-Based Sound Issue..

[AudioDoctor]

Church shouldn't be a place for a rock concert, haha.

[The_K-Man]

7 hours ago, coot said:

I quit going to church in the 80's. When the drums, guitars and amps came in I left. Never to return. All the church I need is in my Aurender.

 

My childhood ELCA, just three minutes from my block, still practices the same liturgy, organ, choir, as they have for decades.  So not all churches have gone 'rock n roll', in a manner of speaking.  I have considered going back there on more than one occasion primarly because of the volume issues at my AG, but several friends and acquaintances have tolded us that it is better for married couples to be under the same roof on Sundays.

 

Just curious, coot: what is Aurender?

[mansr]

5 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

Church shouldn't be a place for a rock concert, haha.

Really though, why not?

[AudioDoctor]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

Really though, why not?

 

It's only my opinion, but personally the loud rock concert music would drive me away. It may be that I grew up extremely Catholic and went to a "church" that had a separate all male chorale of monks and one all female chorale of Nuns that would sing and chant and I just found it more reverent. Now I don't know what to think about any of it.

[coot]

7 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

My childhood ELCA, just three minutes from my block, still practices the same liturgy, organ, choir, as they have for decades.  So not all churches have gone 'rock n roll', in a manner of speaking.  I have considered going back there on more than one occasion primarly because of the volume issues at my AG, but several friends and acquaintances have tolded us that it is better for married couples to be under the same roof on Sundays.

 

Just curious, coot: what is Aurender?

Aurender.com

 

[The_K-Man]

1 hour ago, coot said:

Aurender.com

 

 

Instead of just pointing me to a website, you could at least briefly describe what Aurender is or what it does.

 

I.E. You: 'What's SoundHound?'

 

Me:  'A mobile music identifier app. Run it and point your device toward a speaker in a retail store or bar room - boom! - song title & artist identified.'

 

Much more polite than 'Google it'

 

[AudioDoctor]

There is an Episcopalian church near me that has 2 services, a quiet one with no music, and a normal one.

[mansr]

5 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

It's only my opinion, but personally the loud rock concert music would drive me away. It may be that I grew up extremely Catholic and went to a "church" that had a separate all male chorale of monks and one all female chorale of Nuns that would sing and chant and I just found it more reverent. Now I don't know what to think about any of it.

If you believe in some god, why not worship it in whatever way gives you the strongest sense of connection? Rock music might not do it for you, but that doesn't make wrong, in my view.

[AudioDoctor]

16 minutes ago, mansr said:

If you believe in some god, why not worship it in whatever way gives you the strongest sense of connection? Rock music might not do it for you, but that doesn't make wrong, in my view.

 

Thats why I said it was only my opinion.

[Ralf11]

23 minutes ago, mansr said:

If you believe in some god, why not worship it in whatever way gives you the strongest sense of connection? 

 

Because a strong connection might be dangerous - depends on the god

[sphinxsix]

19 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

Church shouldn't be a place for a rock concert, haha.

Do you think so.? Many Amsterdamers would be extremely surprised by such a statement. I've been to Paradiso in Amsterdam a couple of times and I must say that rock music sounds great there

Beside that there's a lot of good Christian rock music that could be performed in churches e.g. I wouldn't mind her performing in a local sanctuary, maybe she would even be for me a bigger attraction than a regular mass (which I haven't attended for years). I'm pretty sure not every pastor would appreciate such a gig though..

 

 

I would definitely love to see performance like this (wherever):

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

@mansr I have never heard any christian rock music that didn't make me want to stuff an ice pick in my ears. That woman and James Brown are not christian rock, at least as I know it.

[esldude]

@The_K-Man

 

What you've described here basically is an unsolvable situation.  You either get some control, as in are responsible for sound levels and you don't let others have access or you can't fix it.  

 

In slightly similar situations I've found the best thing is simply not be a part of it. Just take yourself out of the whole situation and let them have it. I know too well trying to help and seeing the wrongness of someone's approach, but in the end you'll wish you'd done that sooner and not taken the wear and tear fixing something these other people don't want fixed. 

[The_K-Man]

6 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

Do you think so.? Many Amsterdamers would be extremely surprised by such a statement. I've been to Paradiso in Amsterdam a couple of times and I must say that rock music sounds great there

Beside that there's a lot of good Christian rock music that could be performed in churches e.g. I wouldn't mind her performing in a local sanctuary, maybe she would even be for me a bigger attraction than a regular mass (which I haven't attended for years). I'm pretty sure not every pastor would appreciate such a gig though..

 

 

I would definitely love to see performance like this (wherever):

 

 

The style of worship some churches - including my own - is not my primary concern.  The overall presentation volume is.

[The_K-Man]

58 minutes ago, esldude said:

@The_K-Man

 

What you've described here basically is an unsolvable situation.  You either get some control, as in are responsible for sound levels and you don't let others have access or you can't fix it.  

 

In slightly similar situations I've found the best thing is simply not be a part of it. Just take yourself out of the whole situation and let them have it. I know too well trying to help and seeing the wrongness of someone's approach, but in the end you'll wish you'd done that sooner and not taken the wear and tear fixing something these other people don't want fixed. 

 

The issue is, that 90-95dB, even for only 35min of worship, sounds too loud to me in our size sanctuary.  It just doesn't work for me in that size space.  So with that in mind, even though OSHA specifies up to 105dBa for one hour, that does not justify 95dB even for 35min.  Maybe my ears are just more sensitive than average.  Who knows?

 

I've put it in the Pastor's ears, so to speak, I've even made minor tweaks to our church's preset scene in the Behringer digital X32 Compact mixer, but our worship leader just cranks them up anyway from his iPad mounted above the electric piano.

 

And nobody else seems to be bothered by it because they are also good Christians there to worship Jesus on Sundays.  They are not audio experts in the very least!  Our net growth in membership and overall attendance since I have been there is about two - four have left in four years and six(four members and two casual attendees) have joined us.

 

There are plenty of things for me to fix or clean in our fellowship hall downstairs.  35minutes per Sunday is enough for me to tackle some of them.  When I hear the music die down and the Pastor's voice booming from upstairs, I head up in time for offering to be taken and to start the CD recorder to capture the sermon.

[esldude]

3 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

The issue is, that 90-95dB, even for only 35min of worship, sounds too loud to me in our size sanctuary.  It just doesn't work for me in that size space.  So with that in mind, even though OSHA specifies up to 105dBa for one hour, that does not justify 95dB even for 35min.  Maybe my ears are just more sensitive than average.  Who knows?

 

I've put it in the Pastor's ears, so to speak, I've even made minor tweaks to our church's preset scene in the Behringer digital X32 Compact mixer, but our worship leader just cranks them up anyway from his iPad mounted above the electric piano.

 

And nobody else seems to be bothered by it because they are also good Christians there to worship Jesus on Sundays.  They are not audio experts in the very least!  Our net growth in membership and overall attendance since I have been there is about two - four have left in four years and six(four members and two casual attendees) have joined us.

 

There are plenty of things for me to fix or clean in our fellowship hall downstairs.  35minutes per Sunday is enough for me to tackle some of them.  When I hear the music die down and the Pastor's voice booming from upstairs, I head up in time for offering to be taken and to start the CD recorder to capture the sermon.

Yes the issue is clear.  It is too LOUD!

 

Your efforts amount to nothing if the worship leader can crank it from his ipad, or the pastor just turns it up to boom.  Your efforts are doing nothing other than causing you problems.  

 

You either say you are the sound guy, sound is your province, you will have ultimate authority over it or you are in no position to make it right.  Until that issue is resolved nothing else about it will be. If the pastor says no, then walk away.  You can wear your ear plugs in church and let them mess it up as they are currently doing anyway.  I get it, they don't, and they could use your help, but they aren't accepting it.  Your efforts are completely wasted.  Might as well pray that God gives the pastor a vision to see things that need to change.  

[The_K-Man]

33 minutes ago, esldude said:

Yes the issue is clear.  It is too LOUD!

 

Your efforts amount to nothing if the worship leader can crank it from his ipad, or the pastor just turns it up to boom.  Your efforts are doing nothing other than causing you problems.  

 

You either say you are the sound guy, sound is your province, you will have ultimate authority over it or you are in no position to make it right.  Until that issue is resolved nothing else about it will be. If the pastor says no, then walk away.  You can wear your ear plugs in church and let them mess it up as they are currently doing anyway.  I get it, they don't, and they could use your help, but they aren't accepting it.  Your efforts are completely wasted.  Might as well pray that God gives the pastor a vision to see things that need to change.  

 

I will show up in my birthday suit before I ever wear earplugs to church.

(joke!)

 

I've already told Pastor that if even one person must wear earmuffs or plugs in church or even a secular concert to be able to enjoy the presentation, then something is wrong.  He "accepts my 'opinion', but as pastor must balance the needs of all congregants".

 

Like I said, the main sanctuary is not the only space I can spend time in in this building during the worship half.

[GregWormald]

IMO you need to be aware that 94 dB for an hour is the MAXIMUM recommended in an 8 hour day PROVIDING it is followed by many hours of recovery time. 

https://www.noisehelp.com/noise-dose.html

 

If you are in charge of the sound then you are likely legally liable for hearing damage to parishioners. 

 

Your call.

[The_K-Man]

58 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

IMO you need to be aware that 94 dB for an hour is the MAXIMUM recommended in an 8 hour day PROVIDING it is followed by many hours of recovery time. 

https://www.noisehelp.com/noise-dose.html

 

If you are in charge of the sound then you are likely legally liable for hearing damage to parishioners. 

 

Your call.

 

I explained to the Pastor that the levels outlined on that sheet I OP'd here are maximums, but he didn't seem(or maybe didn't want?) to grasp that concept.  The way he sees it, he is being nice by not allowing the worship music volume to go to over 100dBa, which is within that sheet's allowable 105dBa for up to one hour.  If that ever happened, I think I would leave that church altogether!

 

From mid-2015 until last December I *was* in charge, as far as mixing during worship and adjusting worship team wedge levels.  I mixed to what I felt was a comfortably loud volume, although I never metered myself.  I'm guessing I averaged perhaps 85-90dB.   Occasionally during those years the worship leader would ask for more of his vocal or piano in his wedge monitor, or the Pastor would come over himself and ask for more piano or something through the house mains.  

 

When I returned after a couple of Sundays away for the holidays, I found out that I had been(ostensibly) replaced by the Behringer digital board.  I still record and distribute CDs of the Sunday sermons.

 

I soon thereafter downloaded the instruction manual for the X32 series and have been studying it in the porcelain classroom(!) and now know how to adjust the basic things on it(faders, pre-fade input gain, EQ, built-in compressors, and making changes to audio settings and saving them to Scenes).  I still have to bone up on routing things(like how sound is sent to the new IP-based IEM monitors and to my old board which is still in the back sound & projection tables).

 

By bringing in a SPL meter and explaining things to the Pastor I think I have done my due diligence.  The ball is now in his, and the worship team leader's, court.  The fact that the worship leader is now salaried and I am only volunteer implies where each of us stands, at least in the Pastor's mind.

[mansr]

4 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

@mansr I have never heard any christian rock music that didn't make me want to stuff an ice pick in my ears. That woman and James Brown are not christian rock, at least as I know it.

I'm no fan of Christian rock either. I just figure a rock god is no more or less wrong than a Gregorian chant god.

[sphinxsix]

6 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

I have never heard any christian rock music that didn't make me want to stuff an ice pick in my ears.

I haven't either.

6 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

That woman and James Brown are not christian rock, at least as I know it.

No, they're not

 

But there are many good concerts in Paradiso

[christopher3393]

2 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

I haven't either.

No, they're not

 

But there are many good concerts in Paradiso

 

   Is Paradiso OSHA Compliant?

 

 

The word Dante uses most frequently to describe the sound of music in the Divine Comedy's Paradiso is dulcet.

 

dulcet

adjective: dulcet

(especially of sound) sweet and soothing 

synonyms: sweet, soothing, mellow, honeyed, mellifluous, euphonious, pleasant, agreeable;

melodious, melodic, lilting, lyrical, silvery, golden

 

Sounds like a good guideline to me. Your worship mileage may vary.

But even a heavenly mellifluous sound when played too loud will sound harsh:

 

 

[sphinxsix]

3 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

   Is Paradiso OSHA Compliant?

I'm afraid only in-between gigs (I mean the Amsterdam Paradiso, don't know anything about Dante's one in this regard but it seems it's not a place for rockers )

[JohnSwenson]

Hi K-Man,

I've been doing church sound for a very long time (over 40 years) and am well versed in the issues you are talking about. I have used an X-32 extensively, if you would like to ask questions or share stuff, PM me and I'll be glad to help.

 

A few thoughts on your situation:

 

A worship leader has no business whatsoever setting house sound levels during a service. What he hears on stage is VERY different than what the congregation hears. If he insists that he is the ONLY person that can get the sound right during a service (while leading the service), then he is an arrogant jerk and and should not be a Christian worship leader. Try and find a nicer way to say that!

 

In many cases I have found that what you are experiencing is actually caused by an improperly tuned sound system, the results are that people cannot hear what they want to hear, so they insist it be turned up, but that usually just makes things worse. The problem is the sound system is not allowing people to hear distinctions between instruments, voices etc, ie it is a thick gooey mess they are hearing. Once the sound is cleaned up significantly and everyone can hear a wonderfully clear sound there is no need for the excessive loudness and they are perfectly fine with a lower level. Even the "rocker types".

 

Performer monitoring is a whole different can of worms. The same thing applies there, if the monitors are not clean, the performers insist on a louder level, which just makes it worse.  IEMs can help a lot, but again things have to be setup so the performers can clearly hear what they want to hear.

 

Fortunately the X-32 system has a large array of tools for getting this right, getting these setup right for your situation can make a huge difference.

 

I usually try and approach this with the worship leader and pastor as a team effort, explaining that my job is to properly transmit their artistic talents to the congregation. If we work together we can make this happen.  So far this has worked.

 

So it is up to you, are you willing to work on tuning your system, I can help you work through that if you are interested. You can either do it without telling anyone you are doing it and see if things improve and the worship leader and pastor will accept a lower level without even knowing it, or let them know up front what you are trying to do.

 

I have seen many times that this approach does work, getting the system tuned properly does in fact get rid of almost all  the issues of "too loud" and "too soft". The only real problem after that is overloading hearing aids of people who need them. They are usually set for fairly high gain so the person can hear fairly soft conversations around them. The louder sound from the music (even if clean) can overload the hearing aid. One way we found to deal with that is to have the people use a hearing aid with telecoil, and then use a hearing assistance wireless receiver with a telecoil loop, they don't need to put on headsets etc, the signal gets fed directly into the hearing aid. The mixer can setup a signal that gives a fairly consistent level feed to these devices so it doesn't overload. 

 

Or you can forget about all this and leave. But if you want to stay I think it's possible to work things out so everybody is happy.

 

John S.

[The_K-Man]

1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

Hi K-Man,

I've been doing church sound for a very long time (over 40 years) and am well versed in the issues you are talking about. I have used an X-32 extensively, if you would like to ask questions or share stuff, PM me and I'll be glad to help.

 

A few thoughts on your situation:

 

A worship leader has no business whatsoever setting house sound levels during a service. What he hears on stage is VERY different than what the congregation hears. If he insists that he is the ONLY person that can get the sound right during a service (while leading the service), then he is an arrogant jerk and and should not be a Christian worship leader. Try and find a nicer way to say that!

 

In many cases I have found that what you are experiencing is actually caused by an improperly tuned sound system, the results are that people cannot hear what they want to hear, so they insist it be turned up, but that usually just makes things worse. The problem is the sound system is not allowing people to hear distinctions between instruments, voices etc, ie it is a thick gooey mess they are hearing. Once the sound is cleaned up significantly and everyone can hear a wonderfully clear sound there is no need for the excessive loudness and they are perfectly fine with a lower level. Even the "rocker types".

 

Performer monitoring is a whole different can of worms. The same thing applies there, if the monitors are not clean, the performers insist on a louder level, which just makes it worse.  IEMs can help a lot, but again things have to be setup so the performers can clearly hear what they want to hear.

 

Fortunately the X-32 system has a large array of tools for getting this right, getting these setup right for your situation can make a huge difference.

 

I usually try and approach this with the worship leader and pastor as a team effort, explaining that my job is to properly transmit their artistic talents to the congregation. If we work together we can make this happen.  So far this has worked.

 

So it is up to you, are you willing to work on tuning your system, I can help you work through that if you are interested. You can either do it without telling anyone you are doing it and see if things improve and the worship leader and pastor will accept a lower level without even knowing it, or let them know up front what you are trying to do.

 

I have seen many times that this approach does work, getting the system tuned properly does in fact get rid of almost all  the issues of "too loud" and "too soft". The only real problem after that is overloading hearing aids of people who need them. They are usually set for fairly high gain so the person can hear fairly soft conversations around them. The louder sound from the music (even if clean) can overload the hearing aid. One way we found to deal with that is to have the people use a hearing aid with telecoil, and then use a hearing assistance wireless receiver with a telecoil loop, they don't need to put on headsets etc, the signal gets fed directly into the hearing aid. The mixer can setup a signal that gives a fairly consistent level feed to these devices so it doesn't overload. 

 

Or you can forget about all this and leave. But if you want to stay I think it's possible to work things out so everybody is happy.

 

John S.

Thanks for the inspiration and offer to help!

 

I do know that the different sources(worship leader vocal, backup vocal, drums, Yamaha piano, etc) can have portions of their sound 'carved out' via careful EQing, so they all have their own 'space' in the mix.   In isolation, each input might sound odd, but as a package, it can be musical bliss.  Presently, each input, including the Pastor mic, does have EQ and mild compression applied to it, but, does the EQ of each input compliment the others, or ultimately clash?  That is but one of several issues that needs looking into and if necessary, sorting out.

 

Also, the shape of our sanctuary, mains speaker placement, etc, is also affecting the sound.  That is certainly the case in any live venue, Christian or secular, indoors or out.

 

These are things I would like to learn more about and eventually apply to our worship music sound.  I think it would need to be done on a day other than Sunday service, and with all worship team members(lead, backup vocalist, and drummer) as well as pastor present.

 

What I would need help with most is not just the technical but also the diplomatic side of pulling this off!  Any egos must be checked at the door, and basic gain staging through the X32 Compact accomplished before all the honing and shaping of the sound be done.

 

It certainly cannot all be done thirty minutes, or even one hour, before Sunday Service or Wednesday night worship.