Faith-Based Sound Issue..

[buonassi]

hey BTW, I like your avatar - "this is not remastering".   Why can't there be MORE dynamic range?  

 

If only audiophiles mattered.   We are a lowly bunch aren't we? 

[rando]

It's a famous monster truck announcement.  You're paying for the full seat but you'll only need the edge.  

 

The use of wit was not declarative of opinion.

[The_K-Man]

*UPDATE*

 

Today after service Pastor('Pr') and I('Me') discussed matters, and he presented me with a document he found on-line from another church, regarding service volume levels. I have attached it for your review.

 

He explained the document to me, and that according to OSHA standards as listed on first page, our worship session, at 95-97dBA, are way below maximum dBA for even one hour.  The rest of our discussion as below:

 

Me:  But even mid-nineties dB for half an hour  are barely tolerable for me.

 

Pr:  Then perhaps you should consider earplugs or the earmuffs I presented to you last year, during the worship half of service.

 

Me: Have you ever attended a NASCAR auto race?

 

Pr: No, how loud are those?

 

Me: 120dBa minimum. You'd be crazy not to wear protection in the front rows of a car race.   With all due respect Pastor, this is not a car race, or operating loud lawn equipment, this is church.

 

Pr. Well if you really are that sensitive then you should still consider ear protection here.  

 

Me:  I'm a principled man, Pastor.  I'm also a fan of secular music  and even if I am a fan, I will not attend even a secular concert if it means wearing protection, even halfway back or in the nosebleed seats.  If even one person must wear earplugs during a service or a concert, something is wrong.

 

Pr: (He took a step back from me) Wow!  (and he shook his head)  I don't know what to tell you.  But I cannot just turn the volume down on the worship sound, even by as you said just 4-5dB, just for one person.  

 

Me:  Pastor, understand that this loudness thing is not just about one church. (I made a small gap between my thumb and pointer for emphasis).  It started with the advent of digital audio, and affects everything, from the volume level of CD albums, concerts, church worship, the movies, TV shows, etc.    But we are a church.  We are better than the world.  What would God think?

 

Pr.  No no!  Do not bring God into this discussion.  This is not about Him.  As a Pastor this volume thing can be more delicate an issue than politics for me.  If it's too soft, I'll lose the younger parishoners I'm trying to attract, if it's too loud, I alienate older people who have come here for years.  The loud thing is the only way to reach and retain younger Christians now.   I think the Christian thing to would be for you to just wear protection during worship.

 

Me:  Or I could just wait in the fellowship hall until I hear the worship end.

 

Pr.  Now what good would that do?  Do you think you are better than the rest of these parishoners, these congregants?  Now I showed you the OSHA scale,  and if the maximums you recommends are too loud for you, even all the way hear in back, you know what to do.  I'll mention the minor adjustment to our worship leader, and see what he thinks.

 

 

Below are first two pages of the document.

 

[serendipitydawg]

Surely faith overrides ecumenical matters such as ear-plugs? 

[The_K-Man]

1 minute ago, serendipitydawg said:

Surely faith overrides ecumenical matters such as ear-plugs? 

?

[mansr]

As a European, I find the notion of church being so loud as to require earplugs somewhat bizarre.

[The_K-Man]

37 minutes ago, mansr said:

As a European, I find the notion of church being so loud as to require earplugs somewhat bizarre.

 

Only in America!  Louder! brighter! bigger! betterer!  

 

 

[Ralf11]

2 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Only in America! ...

 

 

 

 

"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"

[The_K-Man]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

"Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"

 

Regarding the worship music volume, Pastor said to me in pvt: "You can't hold back progress.  You must go along to get along."  And He's in his sixties!

[mansr]

44 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

Only in America!  Louder! brighter! bigger! betterer!

In fairness, your churches are probably more fun (if church is at all your thing).

[Ralf11]

Only in Louisiana ( or maybe elsewhere in the South)

[Hugo9000]

Find some more "old people" who feel as you do, and confront him en masse (haha lame joke, as messe, not masse is the French for "mass" (in the religious sense), although this whole sound issue is certainly a mess!  haha another lame joke--oh, another one, as messe is also German for a trade fair and his points are about marketing hahaha) on this issue.  Also, see if you can find some "young people" to debunk his marketing spiel as well.  Surely there are others who find the extreme SPL to be irritating?

 

 

And to think, in the olden days, the main concern was whether polyphony was appropriate--O, what poor Palestrina endured to bring us past monody!--and now they have drumbeats and other percussion, and at ear-bleeding SPL!

 

 

[davide256]

I suggest you direct your pastor to this link. And advise him that he is not a professional, should hire one who can design/install/level set the PA system

correctly. Per the article , 75-85 db is all that is needed. If he wants more, it may be time for him to have a hearing checkup

I'm with you on this one, loud levels for sustained periods cause hearing damage, aggravate tinnitus.

 

https://thomrainer.com/2013/04/how-loud-should-our-church-music-be/

[GregWormald]

Ha, Ha, Ha, ...

He really thinks people attend church 'cause it's loud?? and doesn't want God involved?

I suggest he's in the wrong business.

[The_K-Man]

3 hours ago, davide256 said:

I suggest you direct your pastor to this link. And advise him that he is not a professional, should hire one who can design/install/level set the PA system

correctly. Per the article , 75-85 db is all that is needed. If he wants more, it may be time for him to have a hearing checkup

I'm with you on this one, loud levels for sustained periods cause hearing damage, aggravate tinnitus.

 

https://thomrainer.com/2013/04/how-loud-should-our-church-music-be/

 

Our PA system has reserve capacity in a sanctuary of our size.

 

And I know my way around the Behringer x32 Compact enough to be able to turn down the house mix just a little.  By lowering the piano, pads, and vocal faders just 2-3dB each, the dB SPL drops down to an average of 90dB instead of 95-97.  By listening, I can EQ out of the piano 'space' for the worship leader's vocal, etc.

 

The issue is either the Pastor goes over and pushes them back up, or the worship leader pushes them up on his tablet which emulates the X32 compact.  And recall that I mentioned that digital mixer can store dozens of scenes(preset levels for different groups and churches that use our sanctuary).  I can make sure our church's scene is selected, but that doesn't mean that the worship leader doesn't switch it from up on stage to the 'hidden' scene several screens down, the one where everything is CRANKED.  See what I'm up against?

 

As that paper I attached images to suggests, an average SPL of 95-97 dB for 35-40 min of worship falls inside OSHA's maximum of 105dBa for one hour sustained.   But that doesn't mean I -or others - can tolerate it!  And our congregation mostly just assume that that's how loud an Assemblies of God worship session should be.  They're not soundies like me, the worship leader, and I would assume some of you participating.  

[sockpit]

I’d convert to Anglicanism.  You can at least reason with clergy in the dying mainline denominations, and they have an appropriate sense of decorum in the sanctuary . . . ?

[sockpit]

I’d convert to Anglicanism.  You can at least reason with clergy in the dying mainline denominations, and they have an appropriate sense of decorum in the sanctuary . . . ?

 

Or simply turn to the Japanese professionals in worship environments!  Go figure.

 

https://usa.yamaha.com/support/how/index.html

[wgscott]

Thank God I am an atheist. Sometimes it just isn't worth gnawing through the straps.

[buonassi]

OSHA numbers are a guideline that err on the side of business productivity - for laborers in loud environments.  Everyone is different and to peanut butter spread 105db sustained for 1 hour at A weighted frequencies is asinine - people have different conchas, canals, and HRTFs - so what you hear as OK, I hear as a piercing 3khz spike.  If I listed at 105db for an entire hour, my ears would ring for days - and it would cause some minor hearing loss.

 

Anyway, sounds like you didn't make much progress with him.  But he really feels is in a pickle, being torn between two crowds' preferences.  Our church is driving people in through the doors every week - and we keep it at 90db.  And it's a young crowd for the most part.  So this thing about people leaving because they want it loud is PURE CRAP.  People leave because they aren't being fed spiritually, or because the experience is garbage and they don't feel as though they can connect.  So it seems you pastor has found a great scapegoat for his accountability.  He's running this like a business, catering to the crowd who seeks entertainment INSTEAD of carrying out the real mission of the church.  That's just my opinion.

 

You see, you were able to achieve a drop in db just by remixing a tad better.  That's the ticket.  

 

You're fighting the tide it seems.  Earplugs or another church seem to be your options at this point - he's not going to budge.  

[wgscott]

Play the music backward and point out it is satanic.

[4est]

10 hours ago, mansr said:

In fairness, your churches are probably more fun (if church is at all your thing).

Many are like rock concerts, but instead of fanning the freaks, they shame them...

[The_K-Man]

6 hours ago, buonassi said:

OSHA numbers are a guideline that err on the side of business productivity - for laborers in loud environments.  Everyone is different and to peanut butter spread 105db sustained for 1 hour at A weighted frequencies is asinine - people have different conchas, canals, and HRTFs - so what you hear as OK, I hear as a piercing 3khz spike.  If I listed at 105db for an entire hour, my ears would ring for days - and it would cause some minor hearing loss.

 

Anyway, sounds like you didn't make much progress with him.  But he really feels is in a pickle, being torn between two crowds' preferences.  Our church is driving people in through the doors every week - and we keep it at 90db.  And it's a young crowd for the most part.  So this thing about people leaving because they want it loud is PURE CRAP.  People leave because they aren't being fed spiritually, or because the experience is garbage and they don't feel as though they can connect.  So it seems you pastor has found a great scapegoat for his accountability.  He's running this like a business, catering to the crowd who seeks entertainment INSTEAD of carrying out the real mission of the church.  That's just my opinion.

 

You see, you were able to achieve a drop in db just by remixing a tad better.  That's the ticket.  

 

You're fighting the tide it seems.  Earplugs or another church seem to be your options at this point - he's not going to budge.  

 

Yes, but both our worship leader and the drummer wear IEM monitors.  They can deafen themselves as they please.  

 

And either he or the Pastor will just push the levels back up to wear they want them during worship, even after I adjust them down before everyone arrives church(as part of the media team, and my wife a deacon, we are both there about 45min before the first song).

[sphinxsix]

Hasn't the problem been solved yet.?!

Hurry up, the Judgment Day is near..

 

[The_K-Man]

On 12/2/2018 at 7:27 PM, davide256 said:

I suggest you direct your pastor to this link. And advise him that he is not a professional, should hire one who can design/install/level set the PA system

correctly. Per the article , 75-85 db is all that is needed. If he wants more, it may be time for him to have a hearing checkup

I'm with you on this one, loud levels for sustained periods cause hearing damage, aggravate tinnitus.

 

https://thomrainer.com/2013/04/how-loud-should-our-church-music-be/

 

He does like it loud for a 60-something male.  I am quite familiar with and appreciate that article, it comes up first when I Google the subject of church volumes.

 

I've decided, for reasons I prefer not to discuss here, that I'm just going to tolerate the worship part because the sermon part is what matters most to me.  I'm a pipe-organ church guy to begin with, but we tried this church we are going to out 4 years ago, and have been going there since.  

 

Last year, when I last actually ran the sound, before we got the behringer, I think I kept a good level going in there, although I never metered it.  I just raised it up until it was comfortably loud, but not overbearing.  

[coot]

I quit going to church in the 80's. When the drums, guitars and amps came in I left. Never to return. All the church I need is in my Aurender.