system advice needed?

[the_doc735]

...looking at: "microrendu 1.4> Iso-Regen>ultradigital" ?

Would inserting the Iso-Regen have any beneficial hearing effects? OR, would it just be 'OTT'? (& a waste of time and money).

 

Cheers! 

[vortecjr]

First worry about having two independent power supplies.

[the_doc735]

19 hours ago, vortecjr said:

First worry about having two independent power supplies.

can you elaborate on that as it has left me somewhat confused?

many thanks!

[barrows]

39 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

can you elaborate on that as it has left me somewhat confused?

many thanks!

The ultraDigital includes isolation from the USB input side to the SPDIF/I2S output side.  If you power both the microRendu and the ultraDigital from a shared power supply, you will defeat the isolation of the ultraDigital (noise can travel between the two units via the power supply ground).  It will work fine, as long as the power supply is capable, but using a shared power supply for both units will not produce the absolute best performance possible.

I hope that helps!  BTW, I would invest in separate supplies and a good USB cable before bothering with the extra complication of adding an isoRegen, as Jesus alluded to.  In fact, I very much doubt that an isoRegen will improve on the USB output of the microRendu (but I would never say never!).  Of course the same detail about power supplies would apply to the isoRegen, it would need a separate supply to remain isolated.  The thing to remember is that any component which provides isolation will only work properly if it has a dedicated power supply.

[Superdad]

32 minutes ago, barrows said:

In fact, I very much doubt that an isoRegen will improve on the USB output of the microRendu (but I would never say never!).

 

Having sold hundreds of ISO REGENs to microRendu owners--with consistent written praise for the combo--and using that pairing myself (into Singer SU-1>Holo Spring Lvl.3) I can confidently differ with you on that!  

The Crystek CCHD-575 and the specially chosen USB3.1 hub chip of the ISO REGEN are both superior to what is in the output of the microRendu (though the limited availability microRendu V1.4 boards and the ultraRendu did of course add the Crystek 575).

 

Yet I agree that powering the microRendu separately from anything downstream of it is important. Some people use two UltraCap LPS-1.2 units to cover the microRendu, ISO REGEN, and ultraDigital (or genetically similar Singxer SU-1), with one LPS-1.2 dedicated to the microRendu, and the other to the ISO REGEN/ultraDigital combo.  While the latter pairing does defeat the digital isolators on the I2S traces out of the ultraDigital's USB input stage, the ISO REGEN preserves the full galvanic isolation in front of the entire ultraDigital (though an UltraCap-powered microRendu is not trying to pass along much if any leakage current anyway).

[barrows]

8 minutes ago, Superdad said:

While the latter pairing does defeat the digital isolators on the I2S traces out of the ultraDigital's USB input stage, the ISO REGEN preserves the full galvanic isolation in front of the entire ultraDigital (though an UltraCap-powered microRendu is not trying to pass along much if any leakage current anyway).

I would not recommend this combination, as you mention it defeats the isolation of the USB receiver (XMOS).  The XMOS USB processors produce quite a bit of noise, and to get a really clean I2S output it is best to not defeat the isolation inherent in the design of the ultraDigital.

 

[asdf1000]

37 minutes ago, barrows said:

it is best to not defeat the isolation inherent in the design of the ultraDigital.

 

Can you explain for the slow people like me, how overall isolation is defeated when an ultraDigital (with digital isolation) and ISO Regen (with digital isolation) both share an LPS-1.2 (also isolated from mains)?

 

All 3 are seemingly isolated? I'm obviously missing something very obvious.

 

[barrows]

55 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Can you explain for the slow people like me, how overall isolation is defeated when an ultraDigital (with digital isolation) and ISO Regen (with digital isolation) both share an LPS-1.2 (also isolated from mains)?

 

All 3 are seemingly isolated? I'm obviously missing something very obvious.

 

Sure.  The ultraDigital incorporates isolation between its input section (consisting of the USB receiver, the XMOS chip) and the balance of the circuitry.  The input side (XMOS) is powered by the 5 VDC power supply coming in from the USB cable.  The output side of the ultraDigital is where all the good stuff happens, the two 'femto" clocks are there (with dedicated ultra low noise regulators for each clock), as is the re-clocking and wave shaping circuit, and the SPDIF output driver, and the LVDS I2S output driver.  Between the input side and the output side are the isolator chips, these provide (virtually, no isolator is "perfect") full isolation form the noisy XMOS side, to the clean side where the clocks and output circuitry is.  The "clean" output side is powered by whatever power supply is connected to the power input DC jack (should be a dedicated, clean power supply for best performance).

So, if you power the isoRegen (or anything providing the USB input to the ultraDigital) with the same power supply which powers the "clean" side of the ultraDigital, then you have defeated the isolation by making a power connection between the dirty and clean sides of the ultraDigital.

This has nothing to do with the mains, the isolation is defeated by the shared power supply.

I hope that explains it, it is a bit technical, and let me know if I can offer any more clarity.

[asdf1000]

12 minutes ago, barrows said:

So, if you power the isoRegen (or anything providing the USB input to the ultraRendu) with the same power supply which powers the "clean" side of the ultraRendu, then you have defeated the isolation by making a power connection between the dirty and clean sides of the ultraRendu.

 

Thanks barrows. Do you mean ultraDigital here, instead of ultraRendu?

 

[barrows]

11 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Thanks barrows. Do you mean ultraDigital here, instead of ultraRendu?

 

oops!  sorry, good catch.

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, barrows said:

oops!  sorry, good catch.

 

I think it's clicked now. So if we assume it's an LPS-1.2 powering both ISO Regen + ultraDigital, then the power line is common to both the clean and dirty side of the ultraDigital, therefore even noise on the USB GROUND line of the ultraDigital USB input (i.e. from the USB source) can find it's way to the ultraDigital output , via the shared power lines? 

[barrows]

7 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

I think it's clicked now. So if we assume it's an LPS-1.2 powering both ISO Regen + ultraDigital, then the power line is common to both the clean and dirty side of the ultraDigital, therefore even noise on the USB GROUND line of the ultraDigital USB input (i.e. from the USB source) can find it's way to the ultraDigital output , via the shared power lines? 

Bingo!  think of it this way, and perhaps it will be more clear:

 

Let's say that the output of the isoRegen is totally perfect, no noise, perfect USB signal, and perfectly clean ground, +5VDC.  Now we attach that to the USB input of the ultraDigital.  Now that perfectly clean source is connected to an XMOS chip, which, being a high speed processor, generates all kinds of digital noise, ground bounce, etc.  The wires are not one way conduits: noise travels back through through the ground and +5VDC wires, and to the power supply (does not matter, LPS 1.2 or battery, whatever) and then travels out from the power supply to the "clean" side of the ultraDigital.

By powering the ultraDigital with a dedicated clean supply, the isolation stays intact, the noise from the USB side does not get to the "clean" side (OK, just remember also that isolation is not perfect, some noise probably crosses the barrier, so it is probably better to say virtually no noise gets to the "clean" side).

 

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, barrows said:

Bingo!  think of it this way, and perhaps it will be more clear:

 

Let's say that the output of the isoRegen is totally perfect, no noise, perfect USB signal, and perfectly clean ground, +5VDC.  Now we attach that to the USB input of the ultraDigital.  Now that perfectly clean source is connected to an XMOS chip, which, being a high speed processor, generates all kinds of digital noise, ground bounce, etc.  The wires are not one way conduits: noise travels back through through the ground and +5VDC wires, and to the power supply (does not matter, LPS 1.2 or battery, whatever) and then travels out from the power supply to the "clean" side of the ultraDigital.

By powering the ultraDigital with a dedicated clean supply, the isolation stays intact, the noise from the USB side does not get to the "clean" side (OK, just remember also that isolation is not perfect, some noise probably crosses the barrier, so it is probably better to say virtually no noise gets to the "clean" side).

 

 

Got it! I've seen it mentioned many times that sharing a single PSU defeats isolation  but never seen the mechanisms explained. When you're slow like me, you need it spelt out ? 

 

Thanks!

[the_doc735]

10 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Got it! I've seen it mentioned many times that sharing a single PSU defeats isolation  but never seen the mechanisms explained. When you're slow like me, you need it spelt out ? 

 

Thanks!

me too! LOL!

Also thanks to superdad!

[the_doc735]

what is the min. amperage?

 

Sonore MicroRendu version 1.4 - 6-9V/A?

Sonore Ultra Digital - 6-9V/A?

Uptone Iso Regen - 6-9V/A?

 

Cheers!

[barrows]

microRendu: depends on the connected DAC to an extent, you want to have a PS with at least 1A capability, I prefer to have a bit more current headroom, but with most DACs it will not be necessary.

 

ultraDigital: does not need much, I kind of forget, but 400 mA is plenty

 

isoRegen: ask @Superdad

[davide256]

1) Wished I'd gotten the ISO Regen before I sold my first microRendu, then I wouldn't have bought one twice. The LPS 1.2 makes a very big difference powering

the ISO Regen connected to my Schiit Eitr with the USB 5V replace switch on whereas the SoTM SPS500 or HDPlex 100 watt power supply did not. On the fence

at the moment for buying a new PS for the microRendu as the HDPlex powering it died recently...

2) I'm not seeing any published love in hobbyist posts for the Ultradigital; Schiit Eitr and Singxer F-1 seem to be current champs. Can anyone point to a creditable comparison

of the Ultradigital to the Eitr or F-1?

[barrows]

20 minutes ago, davide256 said:

1) Wished I'd gotten the ISO Regen before I sold my first microRendu, then I wouldn't have bought one twice. The LPS 1.2 makes a very big difference powering

the ISO Regen connected to my Schiit Eitr with the USB 5V replace switch on whereas the SoTM SPS500 or HDPlex 100 watt power supply did not. On the fence

at the moment for buying a new PS for the microRendu as the HDPlex powering it died recently...

2) I'm not seeing any published love in hobbyist posts for the Ultradigital; Schiit Eitr and Singxer F-1 seem to be current champs. Can anyone point to a creditable comparison

of the Ultradigital to the Eitr or F-1?

I cannot comment on comparisons, but reports on the ultraDigital are in its thread starting around here:

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/37438-sonore-ultradigtial/?page=6

 

If you have any technical questions RE the ultraDigital, please I am happy to help.

[Superdad]

18 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

what is the min. amperage?

 

Sonore MicroRendu version 1.4 - 6-9V/A?

Sonore Ultra Digital - 6-9V/A?

Uptone Iso Regen - 6-9V/A?

 

MicroRendu by itself draws about 160mA (0.16A) at idle.  During boot up it draws about 360mA.  Add in the 5VBUS load (if any) of whatever device is attached to its USB port.

 

 

An ISO REGEN draws 20mA (0.02A) Of 5VBUS power (to power the upstream side of its Silanna galvanic isolator chip; though even there we use an LT3042 to give that “dirty side” extremely clean 3.3V).

And through its DC jack (powering all the clean side circuits—with 4 more LT3042s—the ISO REGEN draws 240mA.  Again remember to add the 5VBUS load presented by whatever is the next device. (VBUS load of an ultraDigital/SU-1 is a tiny 20mA).

 

I don’t have an ultraDigital here, but my (converted to run from external DC) Singxer SU-1 (whose design the ultraDigital is based on) draws about 260mA, so I expect the ultraDigital to be similar in that regard.

 

[Blake]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

1) Wished I'd gotten the ISO Regen before I sold my first microRendu, then I wouldn't have bought one twice. The LPS 1.2 makes a very big difference powering

the ISO Regen connected to my Schiit Eitr with the USB 5V replace switch on whereas the SoTM SPS500 or HDPlex 100 watt power supply did not. On the fence

at the moment for buying a new PS for the microRendu as the HDPlex powering it died recently...

2) I'm not seeing any published love in hobbyist posts for the Ultradigital; Schiit Eitr and Singxer F-1 seem to be current champs. Can anyone point to a creditable comparison

of the Ultradigital to the Eitr or F-1?

 

Home setup: I have the ultraRendu powered by LPS-1.2 in the home setup (no Regen or IsoRegen), going to Berkeley Alpha USB, then to DAC.

Work setup:  I have an IsoRegen powered by LPS-1, feeding a Schiit Eitr, then to DAC.

 

I have been meaning to take my IsoRegen from my work system, pop it in the home system chain, and see if it makes a difference.  I have not been too interested in trying this because IsoRegen tech is already incorporated in the ultraRendu so I am not sure why inserting IsoRegen would help.  Still, just for fun, I will try at some point.  At some point I should also compare the Eitr against the Berkeley.  I will say, Eitr made a terrific improvement to the work system and IsoRegen further improved sonics.      

 

Here is a comparison post I found on a quick Google search, but unfortunately it doesn't include Ultradigital.  I would expect Ultradigital to be able to compete with the Eitr, no problem (in other words, I expect it to be a great performer).  

 

http://www.basshead.club/spdif-battle-mutec-singxer-lynx-rednet-et-al/

 

 

 

 

 

[the_doc735]

On 11/15/2018 at 8:05 PM, Superdad said:

 

Having sold hundreds of ISO REGENs to microRendu owners--with consistent written praise for the combo--and using that pairing myself (into Singer SU-1>Holo Spring Lvl.3) 

you mean this?

[the_doc735]

7 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

MicroRendu by itself draws about 160mA (0.16A) at idle.  During boot up it draws about 360mA.  Add in the 5VBUS load (if any) of whatever device is attached to its USB port.

 

 

An ISO REGEN draws 20mA (0.02A) Of 5VBUS power (to power the upstream side of its Silanna galvanic isolator chip; And through its DC jack (powering all the clean side circuits—with 4 more LT3042s—the ISO REGEN draws 240mA.  Again remember to add the 5VBUS load presented by whatever is the next device. (VBUS load of an ultraDigital/SU-1 is a tiny 20mA).

So, minimum is 280mA for the IsoRegen?

cheers!

[the_doc735]

On 11/17/2018 at 1:05 AM, the_doc735 said:

So, minimum is 280mA for the IsoRegen?

cheers!

anybody know this please?

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

anybody know this please?

 

No, as I stated, 240mA for ISO REGEN via its DC jack (plus whatever 5VBUS load is presented to the ISO REGEN but the DAC on its output. 

Separately, the ISO REGEN itself draws 20mA from the computer-side USB cable VBUS (to power a 3.3V regulator for the upstream side of its isolator.

[the_doc735]

18 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

No, as I stated, 240mA for ISO REGEN via its DC jack (plus whatever 5VBUS load is presented to the ISO REGEN but the DAC on its output. 

Separately, the ISO REGEN itself draws 20mA from the computer-side USB cable VBUS (to power a 3.3V regulator for the upstream side of its isolator.

many thanks for saying that the minimum mA IS NOT 280 (i.e. "NO"). However I am not able to work with your explanation, so I can't work this out correctly. Very Sorry! However your website does state that you supply a 2.9A SMPS with the Iso Regen, so I guess I'll have to work with that figure? Cheers!