New Mac Mini as music server?

[astrostar59]

wrong is again saying your opinion is FACT and it is not. It is your opinion, you can't have it both ways.

 

I gave my experience with my own Mac Mini as I went through the stages of base, Audirvana+, and other player software, Uptone Audio mod, LPS, SSD and more memory. And in these stages the sound increased each time. I am telling my story. If you want more 'fact' spend a bit of time on the Uptone Audio Mac Mininthread on this forum, and ask some folk who have actually done it. Then come back here. No point is thawing out 'facts' when you haven't actually tried it, or talked to others who have done it. Now that is Wrong.

 

Going back to 'not making any difference' really this is baby stuff. We all know PCs and Mac and various build of each DO make a difference to the sound you end up with. Streaming maybe, but as a player sending data to a DAC, it has a massive effect.

[Thuaveta]

2 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

I am telling my story.

 

That is precisely the problem. Your story is subjective. I hate playing argument by authority, but my "opinion" was a link to maybe one of the world's foremost experts on noise in audio devices, who not only says that you are wrong about your claim about SMPS, but also backs that up empirically.

 

2 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

Going back to 'not making any difference' really this is baby stuff. We all know PCs and Mac and various build of each DO make a difference to the sound you end up with. Streaming maybe, but as a player sending data to a DAC, it has a massive effect.

 

We do not "all know" that "PCs and Mac and various build of each DO make a difference to the sound you end up with". I, for one, think it's completely irrelevant, as long as the output is bit-identical, i.e, that the sequence of 1's and 0's is the same, which it should be, as I believe many others here do. Please do not impugn competent engineering with your religious beliefs.

 

I don't know what you mean by "streaming", but I'd assume you mean what's normally called a "server" - the machine that hosts the file, independently from a playback device. That PSUs are unlikely to make a difference there seems to be something we agree on.

 

As to a DAC connected to a player, whip out the measurement gear on something that's competently designed and prove, in a manner that's repeatable, that there is a difference. This needs to happen at analogue output, because that's where the difference is going to be audible. A word of warning: AFAIK, and I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, no one has _ever_ been able to achieve that, simply because it's impossible to record the sound of someone's (quite beautiful) imagination.

[Ralf11]

anecdotes are not convincing

 

perceptions are subject to bias

 

 

 

search this site for @jabbr 's comments on medical SMPS

[astrostar59]

Lets get back to the start, and if SMPS affect sound quality. There is a lot of information on the internet about this, I suggest you read it. Also, if SMPS's don't affect the sound, why does 99% of amplifiers over say 1K not sue them. I accept Chord do, but they hump through heculian hoops to make them work. Also there is tons of measurements out there that say SMPS create a lot of noise.

 

I am not entering into this closed loop. There are those that know a little and stop at the bottom of the mountain..... others are open to learning....

[Ralf11]

"There is a lot of information on the internet about" space aliens too.

 

As Billy Thompson once said: "When you measure, you know..."

[Thuaveta]

9 minutes ago, astrostar59 said:

There are those that know a little and stop at the bottom of the mountain..... others are open to learning....

 

I'm very open to learning, and i've repeatedly stated as much. I will admit I draw the line at tangible, repeatable evidence, and therefore do not have much patience for space aliens, bigfoot, and magical stones.

[isosound]

 

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 5:50 PM, Indydan said:

 

That's the point. For about the same price, why not buy a dedicated music server with ripper, rather than a computer serving as a server?

 

Well, there are several solutions, you can find on the net in wide price range

Innous ZEN is actually~ $3500 when you go for a 1 TB ssd  
see ZENith Mk3 1 TB Black
 

if you want you can find even high-end equipment as coreaudio eu daido audio pc

that is $9000.

 

the question is whether

- the dedicated music servers provide a better sound ?

- is the investment on music server preferred or gradually upgrade other components ?

 

I presently use Vienna Acoustic speakers. I do not know if the difference in the music server could be identified in sound quality.

 

[wgscott]

As long as anecdotal experience is our criteria for investing in a pricey upgrade:

 

When I play music from an internet streaming source directly into my DAC, it sounds the same as music played on my Mac Mini with an internal switching mode power supply, via USB.

 

If the SMPS had any influence on the sound quality, the two sources would not sound the same.

 

At the very least, prospective modifiers should do this (or a similar) control before spending their money on a power supply upgrade.

[wgscott]

6 hours ago, astrostar59 said:

We all know PCs and Mac and various build of each DO make a difference to the sound you end up with. Streaming maybe, but as a player sending data to a DAC, it has a massive effect.

 

No we don't.  You might. But you keep making this assumption that your subjective opinions are universally-shared truths.  They are not.  Some of us require evidence for our beliefs.  

[Indydan]

On 11/25/2018 at 4:18 PM, isosound said:

 

 

Well, there are several solutions, you can find on the net in wide price range

Innous ZEN is actually~ $3500 when you go for a 1 TB ssd  
see ZENith Mk3 1 TB Black
 

if you want you can find even high-end equipment as coreaudio eu daido audio pc

that is $9000.

 

the question is whether

- the dedicated music servers provide a better sound ?

- is the investment on music server preferred or gradually upgrade other components ?

 

I presently use Vienna Acoustic speakers. I do not know if the difference in the music server could be identified in sound quality.

 

 

I was thinking of the Zen Mini MK3, $1250 US. 

[Shortcuttomonctonthe]

I’m interested in the same question. I sold my 2012 mini i7 with 16gb ram and 1Tb SSD due to some persistent questions about fan use and overheating, which is a common issue of that model. 

 

One benefit of the Mac mini that I keep coming back to is a holistic solution to HTPC—both audio and media (ie movies). I have a Thunderbolt drive array with about 10Tbs of all the TV shows, movies and music that I’ve collected and ripped over the years. So the mini ran Plex and served my movies and shows via Plex app to a 4K AppleTV connected to the TV via HDMI, and to a Peachtree Nova150 DAC via optical. The mini also ran iTunes (usually accessed through the Rmote app) via USB audio out through a USB purifier into the USB input of the Peachtree DAC. As this TV setup is in the basement, the first floor and second floor of the house also has a bunch of grouped Sonos One and 5 speakers that could be accessed via Airplay 2. 

 

I thiught it it would be great to add Roon to the mix, as I love the interface.

 

The Nova goes out to a 2.0 audio setup of Totem Tribe III speakers. (Been thinking of adding Totem’s separate Tribe sub and separate Bash amp, but haven’t yet figured out how to do that with the Peachtree.) I also have a turntable setup that currently plays directly into the Peachtree MM inputs and the main stereo system, although I’ve toyed with the idea of trying to figure out how to also stream that to the Sonos groups for kicks.

 

Overall, the system I want should answer the question “how do I make this easy for the family to use”? If movies are the want, the TV gets turned on and the AppleTV handles Plex or Netflix duties. The side benefit of using AppleTV is that it’s also easy to cast media on a phone or iPad to the TV, of course. If it’s music, then Roon via iPad/iOS to the main system (if it’s not being used) or the Sonos groups. 

 

So for me—a dedicated audio streamer that costs almost about the same amount as a mini answers only half the question. Where does the multimedia come from?  I know this is a bit specific use case, but for me there’s nothing worse than no one else being able to figure out how to play music or turn on a show—it has to just work.

[lentille]

Ok team. 

 

I have a macmini 2012 (my workhorse for many year -  just retired this month), 2x 2014 macmini and have just bought and installed 3x macmini 2018. 

 

On the hifi front I use the Aurilac mini as streamer in 2 locations, feeding into better DACs. I do spend possibly ridiculous amounts on cables; fuse upgrades; isolation devices; quality LPS or other power treatments. 

 

I can can tell you the new 2018 Mac mini is blindingly fast compared to the old ones. It is also very quiet with zero fan noise (I don’t do video rendering or super heavy stuff) and much cooler than its predecessors. There is much more room internally due to the small size of components these days - so some scope for a cooler machine with less internal noise. 

 

Based on my use I recommend the  base 8gb is enough - with 8GB it is is so much faster than my 2012 with 16GB. I would store music  library on an external bus powered SSD plugged into one of the T3 ports - a very minor load. Samsung T5 is one good choice. 

 

I would then look at improving the signal path from the mini to the amp - use wireless or Devices in the chain which Re clock- rather than tinkering with the Mac mini internals or power. 

 

Happy to to elaborate more. 

 

Vincent 

[tmtomh]

3 hours ago, lentille said:

Ok team. 

 

I have a macmini 2012 (my workhorse for many year -  just retired this month), 2x 2014 macmini and have just bought and installed 3x macmini 2018. 

 

On the hifi front I use the Aurilac mini as streamer in 2 locations, feeding into better DACs. I do spend possibly ridiculous amounts on cables; fuse upgrades; isolation devices; quality LPS or other power treatments. 

 

I can can tell you the new 2018 Mac mini is blindingly fast compared to the old ones. It is also very quiet with zero fan noise (I don’t do video rendering or super heavy stuff) and much cooler than its predecessors. There is much more room internally due to the small size of components these days - so some scope for a cooler machine with less internal noise. 

 

Based on my use I recommend the  base 8gb is enough - with 8GB it is is so much faster than my 2012 with 16GB. I would store music  library on an external bus powered SSD plugged into one of the T3 ports - a very minor load. Samsung T5 is one good choice. 

 

I would then look at improving the signal path from the mini to the amp - use wireless or Devices in the chain which Re clock- rather than tinkering with the Mac mini internals or power. 

 

Happy to to elaborate more. 

 

Vincent 

 

Thanks for the feedback/field report- very helpful!

 

I had a 2011 Mac mini as my music server, then slightly upgraded to a 2012 unit when I decided I wanted to make the 2011 into a server and  I found a really good deal on a 2012. I would emphasize your point about RAM: IMHO, for music use, even with today's operating system 8GB of RAM is plenty. RAM's not a fortune of course, but relatively speaking RAM has been expensive in the past year or so because of supply constraints, and IMHO it's not worth it to pay the premium for 16GB. 8GB is plenty, and one's money is better and more efficiently spent on more storage (or cabling if that's your thing).

[ALRAINBOW]

On 11/24/2018 at 6:33 PM, HendersonD said:

I did purchase the new Mac Mini and may take a look at replacing the power supply once one becomes available for the new design. I agree that it would be nice to have some objective measurements of a Mac Mini before and after this modification to see how it affects sound quality. I have been following various sound and home theater forums for years along with many different print and digital publications. There are certainly objective measurements offered at times but often it is subjective descriptions that carry the day.

 

The new Mac Mini does not have firewire, Apple abandoned it years ago. The new Mac Mini has USB-C and USB-A connections.

Going back to your first post. 

Roon sever better sound then GUI Roon 

Roon loads your entire library into ram to pic toons fast. Min 16 gig is good. I had 4 then 8 now 16 I have a 30TB  library it's needed. 

Next don't play music from your OS drive it hurts the sound. 

Use a second internal drive. If you can't use a sata Cable from rear of mini if it has one 

don't usb unless your using a self powered ss drive so no 5 volts is used from your mini. 

Music drives can spin just don't use mini power 

lps is a must a good one too. A Mac mini has one flaw I see it's own internal dc to atx converter. This means the 19 volts from you new lps still goes through there shitty converter 

a desk top can have its own Hd plex 400 watt dc atx converter. 

A nas is a good but again use a lps for it. 

Also get a network iso too. It's only about 200 or less.  

[rickca]

@ALRAINBOW since you are around now, what's your take on the NUC/AudioLinux solution?  I've tried it and it's excellent.  I know you have always maintained that Linux sounds thin compared to Windows Server.  Using ramroot with AL I certainly don't find the sound thin.

[HendersonD]

I am the one who posted the original topic. I ended up purchasing a new MacMini with 8GB of RAM and an internal 1TB hard drive to hold my music. I installed Roon Core and it is working great. I formatted the drive on my old 2012 MacMini and installed Roon Bridge. I have my Meridian Explorer DAC plugged into this older Mac Mini and it feeds an Outlaw Audio RR2160 receiver. Both Mac Minis are connected to my network via an ethernet cable, no wireless is used.

 

Separating the Roon Server from the Roon playback device (old Mac Mini) is best practice according to Roon. Would I benefit from a better power supply on the new Mac Mini which holds the music or the old Mac Mini which plays it?

[astrostar59]

Yes, you need to convert your new Mac Mini to run off an LPS feeding it clean DC to then elevate it to a decent music server player. Without that is will be no better than a Laptop. I have said this before on this thread but been attacked ~(mainly by those who have not even tried this mod). 

 

On different commuter for the player or streamer, I am not sure I see the benefit. If you have Roon as a player on your Mac Mini, with the system on SSD and running in memory, and if you run an external Firewire drive with your library, then you should be good.

 

I am still looking for a designation music server that beats my optimised Mac Mini, using screen share to control it and running Roon. The biggest issue I have right now is most servers don't support wifi and many don't screen share to my iMac via Ethernet. Controlling Roon via an iPad and with wifi is rubbish, too slow to respond instantaneously and becomes too annoying.

 

Also I don't want to spend 5K+ on a server that basically is a closed solution, out of date and hard to customise to my needs. Now if the Aurender units ran Roon....

[Ralf11]

a better power supply (i.e. a low EMF noise one) will not improve SQ if your DAC is unaffected by EMF noise - it can be hard to know that from looking at the DAC w/out listening

 

you are using an ethernet cable (wired?) so the transformers in it will attenuate EMI noise, but some say there is still too much

 

you do not "clean DC" in the P/S for the mac mini if EMI noise is removed in the interface to the DAC or if the DAC is well designed in terms of being immune itself (often but not always by using opto-isolators)

 

There are products about to be introduced that further remove any EMI noise from wired Ethernet, and they will not be very expensive (a few hundred).  I would wait a few months and then see if you can try those.  In the meantime, assemble a set of test music for that, and just enjoy your music...

[look&listen]

1 hour ago, HendersonD said:

Would I benefit from a better power supply on the new Mac Mini which holds the music or the old Mac Mini which plays it?

Mini with music is 'server', Mini connected to DAC is 'endpoint', 'renderer', 'NAA', & other, too many, names.

Most listening reports say both server & endpoint computers benefit from better power, but server is small improvement, endpoint Mini is best place to apply limited resources for bigger SQ improvement.

 

I also have 2012 Mac Mini, now as single server computer. Has MMK kit & 100VA low noise LPSU. Improvement to SQ of those two mods very large, very welcome. SQ also benefit (also large degrees) from boot OS from SD card & use 'optimized' OS (CAD script, unmounts).

 

Some time in new year will add NUC/AF endpoint to Mini server (with Firewire ex-HDD) to try server-network-endpoint-DAC configuration.

Fun hobby 

[wgscott]

44 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Most listening reports say both server & endpoint computers benefit from better power

 

What is the basis for your claim?

[Hauser]

Why don't you run with that suggestion and report back your findings.

[mindaddy]

I recently got the new 2018 Mac Mini to replace an old Macbook Pro and am considering returning it. I'm wondering if anyone else has tried it in their system. Maybe I got a lemon and I need to try a new unit? 

I'm using the i5 / 8GB / 256GB, 2018 Mac Mini to stream iTunes and Spotify (via airplay - AEX series g - Toslink or direct connect via USB) to my Peachtree Dac.it that's feeding a vintage McIntosh system.

When I A/B it against my 2017 Macbook pro, I lose a lot of detail and staging. The lows from the Mac Mini is sloppy and rounded with the mid's sounding thin. 

I also A/B'd it using headphones and IEM's via audio jack and get same results. In fact, the Mac Mini sounds worse than my iPhone XS - how's this possible?

Would be interested in anyone else's thoughts who may have similar set up. I love the Mac Mini form factor and bought it with the idea that I would add RAM and external storage as needed. But the lacking sound output quality (maybe its the T2 chip that's causing the issue?) is a deal breaker.
 

[Ralf11]

I would not pay the $$$ for the new mac mini for use as an audio device.  Check Apple's refurb store and buy a used one for far fewer $$.

 

If you keep it, check all the audio settings to be sure they are where you want them.  I forget the name of the software program but it is outside of iTunes...

 

Peachtree DAC has a good rep. but a Schiit Eitr might improve things.  OTOH, if only the computer has changed then the problem is elsewhere.

[MMMSA-10]

FWIW I have installed a 2018 i3 Mac Mini as a headless server and it works well, and sounds excellent.

 

16GB RAM, 512GD SSD. Audirvana.

 

I have a iFi nano Galvanic3 in the chain between Mini USB3 out and my DAC in, and this has corrected the tendency for drop outs with (only) QuadDSD (DSD256) files. I had the same issue with a MacBook also, before I made the change to a dedicated machine.

 

In terms of processor load, probably maxes at 60% (across all 4 cores) when loading a QuadDSD song into memory, but drops to ca. 25% or less when playing. The CPU usage seems pretty much linked to file depth as it is far far lower on RBCD rips.

 

And, obviously, you can see the Mac works with DSD256, under DoP 1.0 or 1.1.