Article: My Quest for a New DAC, Part 4 - iFi Pro iDSD (and friends)

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, Deyorew said:

I am opposed as well which takes products like Schitt out of my selection. I was curious if the the time you spent with both audibly confirmed the "disadvantage" of not supporting DSD natively.

 

Oh I see. No, when comparing with the Yggy, we just limited the track selection to PCM 24/192 or lower. 

[gordec]

Austin, great review. I'm  loving the pro iDSD -> Soundware P1 -> Susvara combo. In terms of power supply, I was actually looking into getting a Audioquest Niagra 1000 to give my whole chain cleaner power. Is there a major difference between a dedicated linear power supply vs a power reconditioner/regenerator? 

[austinpop]

40 minutes ago, gordec said:

Austin, great review. I'm  loving the pro iDSD -> Soundware P1 -> Susvara combo. In terms of power supply, I was actually looking into getting a Audioquest Niagra 1000 to give my whole chain cleaner power. Is there a major difference between a dedicated linear power supply vs a power reconditioner/regenerator? 

 

In my experience, improving the AC side of things is an additional gain to what you get with a great DC PSU. They're both useful.

 

On the AC side, my top 3 things to do are:

1. install one or more dedicated circuits to your audio setup. Use at least 10 AWG Romex cable.
2. Use a power conditioner/regenerator of your choice. I use a PS Audio power regenerator, but people swear by Shunyata, Audioquest, Synergistic, etc too.
3. Use high quality power cables.

The DC PSU can then leverage the gains you get from the AC side of things.

[gordec]

17 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

In my experience, improving the AC side of things is an additional gain to what you get with a great DC PSU. They're both useful.

 

On the AC side, my top 3 things to do are:

1. install one or more dedicated circuits to your audio setup. Use at least 10 AWG Romex cable.
2. Use a power conditioner/regenerator of your choice. I use a PS Audio power regenerator, but people swear by Shunyata, Audioquest, Synergistic, etc too.
3. Use high quality power cables.

The DC PSU can then leverage the gains you get from the AC side of things.

So if I have all stock power supply get a linear power supply first over anything else?

[davide256]

10 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

In my experience, improving the AC side of things is an additional gain to what you get with a great DC PSU. They're both useful.

 

On the AC side, my top 3 things to do are:

1. install one or more dedicated circuits to your audio setup. Use at least 10 AWG Romex cable.
2. Use a power conditioner/regenerator of your choice. I use a PS Audio power regenerator, but people swear by Shunyata, Audioquest, Synergistic, etc too.
3. Use high quality power cables.

The DC PSU can then leverage the gains you get from the AC side of things.

But first you have to have either the option to use DC power or else a great included power supply. The lack of either of these  is a purchase deterrent given the difference one can hear in digital gear by improving power supply.

[austinpop]

12 hours ago, gordec said:

So if I have all stock power supply get a linear power supply first over anything else?

 

In terms of which to do in what order - giving that kind of advice is dangerous, because every system is different. Certainly a better DC PSU will make a sonic improvement.

 

When considering a PSU for this DAC, I only directly listened to the 2 mentioned in the review. You should always take reviews with a grain of salt... at best they give you ideas, but always use your own ears.

[applesnowleo]

21 hours ago, gordec said:

Austin, great review. I'm  loving the pro iDSD -> Soundware P1 -> Susvara combo. In terms of power supply, I was actually looking into getting a Audioquest Niagra 1000 to give my whole chain cleaner power. Is there a major difference between a dedicated linear power supply vs a power reconditioner/regenerator? 

 

I use the AudioQuest Niagara 1000 with the Pro iDSD, the effect of the Nigara was not small, but never compared the Nigara 1000 with other similar products in the same price range or better.

 

I loved this review, and the idea of upgrading the Pro iDSD power supply is now something I want to try in the future. Maybe iFi comes out in the future with power supply designed for their Pro range.

[austinpop]

16 hours ago, applesnowleo said:

 

I use the AudioQuest Niagara 1000 with the Pro iDSD, the effect of the Nigara was not small, but never compared the Nigara 1000 with other similar products in the same price range or better.

 

I loved this review, and the idea of upgrading the Pro iDSD power supply is now something I want to try in the future. Maybe iFi comes out in the future with power supply designed for their Pro range.

 

When considering PSUs for DACs, it's important to remember that, unlike other digital components upstream (like switches, regenerators, etc), a DAC is also an analog device, and really benefits from a beefy PSU with vast current reserves. It's no surprise that many expensive DACs use large transformers  for their PSUs - like the Terminator (250+60VA). These monsters can deliver current transients that smaller units simply can't. Properly harnessed, this capability is what gives you the density and dynamics of these units.

 

While there are many acclaimed DC PSUs for low-current applications - the Uptone LPS-1.2, the Paul Hynes SR-4, the SOtM sPS-500, to name a few - the number of high-quality, high-current LPSUs are fewer in number. The JS-2 uses a 100VA core, and the PH SR-7, being a custom unit, can be configured by Paul with 1 or more transformers with up to 500VA capacity!

 

I would agree with you that there is a place in the market for more high-quality, high-current linear PSUs for DACs, and I hope more vendors enter this space with compelling offerings. Coupled with DACs like the Pro iDSD and the Brooklyn DAC+, which offer the option of external PSUs, this gives audiophiles the ability to enhance their DAC sonics to another level of quality!

[blue2]

Congratulations on another excellent piece of work. It's a lesson for all hifi reviewers as to what we the buying public want to read.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see you revisit the DAC comparison using HQPlayer upsampling, particularly to DSD512. Maybe there's someone in your area willing to assist with a sufficiently powerful PC?

[Summit]

9 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

When considering PSUs for DACs, it's important to remember that, unlike other digital components upstream (like switches, regenerators, etc), a DAC is also an analog device, and really benefits from a beefy PSU with vase current reserves. It's no surprise that many expensive DACs use large transformers  for their PSUs - like the Terminator (250+60VA). These monsters can deliver current transients that smaller units simply can't. Properly harnessed, this capability is what gives you the density and dynamics of these units.

 

While there are many acclaimed DC PSUs for low-current applications - the Uptone LPS-1.2, the Paul Hynes SR-4, the SOtM sPS-500, to name a few - the number of high-quality, high-current LPSUs are fewer in number. The JS-2 uses a 100VA core, and the PH SR-7, being a custom unit, can be configured by Paul with 1 or more transformers with up to 500VA capacity!

 

I would agree with you that there is a place in the market for more high-quality, high-current linear PSUs for DACs, and I hope more vendors enter this space with compelling offerings. Coupled with DACs like the Pro iDSD and the Brooklyn DAC+, which offer the option of external PSUs, this gives audiophiles the ability to enhance their DAC sonics to another level of quality!

 

One large transformers can be good, but to have 2-3 good quality transformers and/or rails for the analog (L/R) and digital section is often even better.

[matthias]

@austinpop

Excellent review,

I like these comparisons.

 

Matt

[PeterG]

On 10/26/2018 at 6:30 PM, Ralf11 said:

Thx - either way, far better than contemporary reviews by "professionals"

 

I agree with Ralf.  I have great appreciation for many professional reviewers, but your reviews are more interesting and informative than those done by most of the guys who are doing this professionally.  One great thing about the series is that as your stable of DACs has grown, your comparisons have become ever deeper.  As I've probably said in the past, at these levels of performance, just about everything is really good, so it's all about the tradeoffs.  Bravo!

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, PeterG said:

 ... at these levels of performance, just about everything is really good, so it's all about the tradeoffs.

 

I really appreciate the positive feedback, and I'm particularly pleased that this point (above) is resonating. I credit it to the sophistication and knowledge of the CA reader. One of the advantages of writing on this site!

[Kelly]

It is too bad that the iDSD doesn't function as a Roon Ready endpoint. Another reviewer said that the built-in networking seemed the best way to feed the Pro iDSD (to him anyway.) That is a really big deal, if they would just make it work with roon I would buy one no questions asked.  That said, it is too bad you didn't evaluate and report on how the iDSD sounded when fed by non-USB sources. I understand you are committed to USB for your own purposes, but for readers it may be important to know which inputs are stronger than others. 

 

An excellent review as always.

[austinpop]

5 hours ago, Kelly said:

it is too bad you didn't evaluate and report on how the iDSD sounded when fed by non-USB sources.

 

Let me clarify a couple of things. I did drive the Pro iDSD via AES in the comparison with the Yggy A2, since my friend drives his Yggy that way, and it gave me a chance to try the AES input.

 

But I think you're asking a more abstract question - which input sounds best?

 

This is more complex than it sounds. Why? Because the chain upstream of the DAC affects the sound quality - certainly in my experience, and this is why i have optimized this path. Now - to compare inputs, you'd need to equally optimize the upstream path for each input type to ensure that what you are comparing are only the DAC inputs under test. In practice, this is incredibly difficult.  Each input type requires a different device upstream.

• In the case of USB, I use a USB regenerator (SOtM tX-USBultra), disciplined by a reference clock (Ref-10).
• For AES and S/PDIF, I'd have to use a different DDC (digital to digital converter) like the Mutec MC-3+ USB, the SOtM dX-USB HD Ultra, both of which can be disciplined by a reference clock, or a Singxer SU-1, which cannot
• For I2S, the choices are fewer, primarily the Singxer
• For Ethernet, a reclocked switch like my Linear Solutions OCXO switch, or the SOtM sNH-10G.

The point is that these DDCs all have their own sound quality, so in effect, you're comparing different chains, not just the DAC's inputs.

 

In the end, I had to manage this complexity, and picked USB as my standard. My review was difficult and complex enough!

[PeterG]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

In the end, I had to manage this complexity, and picked USB as my standard. My review was difficult and complex enough!

 

I agree that the complexity would be overwhelming at this stage.  But Kelly does raise an interesting question.  On an anecdotal level, I was stunned by the difference a cable change made on my DAC (and for reasons that I will spare you, I am certain it was not all in my head). 

 

Maybe after you find your favorite DAC, you'll write on your quest to optimize your DAC?  Obviously the lessons would not apply as directly, but they would at least offer prescreened hypotheses to readers.  Just a thought ?

[rando]

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

This is more complex than it sounds. Why? Because the chain upstream of the DAC affects the sound quality - certainly in my experience, and this is why i have optimized this path. Now - to compare inputs, you'd need to equally optimize the upstream path for each input type to ensure that what you are comparing are only the DAC inputs under test. In practice, this is incredibly difficult.  

 

Optimized or not, some people can't refuse the need to tinker and see what happens.  Obviously this would be on the order of an almost unmentionable side note where the article was concerned.  Unless...  

 

I hope you are enjoying yourself in all of this testing and structuring of your thoughts for us.  The level of analysis you are putting these through will mostly want to disappear once your choice is made.  At the end I hope you step back and subject your decision to a scrutiny more similar to that used in building your system instead of an audience.  As a consumer, most of your foot is still on that side of the line still, one can never take their eyes off the horizon.  Anticipating the next move and how long the industry will drag out your wait for that improvement to be realized is an ever present danger to be monitored.

 

That toe crossed over the line once you started writing here and getting demo units.  I'll be curious to see if it impacts you to the point of leaning towards a review system for future articles.  Which is at least slightly divergent from past aims.  It certainly doesn't mean breaking with your sound testing regimen that allows as equal of comparison as you can effect equipment to in your own listening (+ a friends speakers).  It might mean being able to feed components with sources not originating from USB.  So maybe that previous paragraph only existed to get to this point.  By way of @Kelly's question it might be worthwhile to at least consider what would expand on your ability to do headphone based listening reviews.  In that you are unique among the few who care to contribute articles here on varied equipment and personal experiences. 

[matthias]

After a good review the reader knows exactly whether a device fits the bill or not.

Thanks @austinpop I do now.

 

Matt

[lmitche]

Hi Rajiv,

 

I enjoyed reading your review. Your notion of scalability was original and a good way to describe this capability.

 

The hard work you put into this review is obvious to the reader and much appreciated.

 

Well done,

 

Larry

[rickca]

This is so much more useful than the usual product review.  The comparisons to other DACs and scalability tests with better clocks and power supplies make this article an outstanding contribution. 

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, PeterG said:

Maybe after you find your favorite DAC, you'll write on your quest to optimize your DAC?  

 

That's an interesting question.

 

In fact, as many CA'ers know, I have spent the last couple years optimizing the chain upstream of my DAC, as an active participant, and then steward of the monster A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming thread. I talked about this in my intro article to the DAC series as well. It was only when I reached the point of diminishing returns in the upstream chain did I turn my attention to a DAC upgrade, with this series as the result.

 

While that thread has benefited from the contributions of many generous and knowledgable CA'ers, it is a daunting prospect to read now. I've tried to maintain an index, but even that is an incomplete summary.

 

One of the ideas I've toyed with for a future article, or series, is to summarize the empirical findings from the "novel" thread, and pose them as a call to action to manufacturers. These are controversial findings, and many objectivists reject them out of hand. I'm not sure what the appetite for such a series would be. Let me know what you all think.

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, rando said:

 

Optimized or not, some people can't refuse the need to tinker and see what happens.  Obviously this would be on the order of an almost unmentionable side note where the article was concerned.  Unless...  

 

I hope you are enjoying yourself in all of this testing and structuring of your thoughts for us.  The level of analysis you are putting these through will mostly want to disappear once your choice is made.  At the end I hope you step back and subject your decision to a scrutiny more similar to that used in building your system instead of an audience.  As a consumer, most of your foot is still on that side of the line still, one can never take their eyes off the horizon.  Anticipating the next move and how long the industry will drag out your wait for that improvement to be realized is an ever present danger to be monitored.

 

That toe crossed over the line once you started writing here and getting demo units.  I'll be curious to see if it impacts you to the point of leaning towards a review system for future articles.  Which is at least slightly divergent from past aims.  It certainly doesn't mean breaking with your sound testing regimen that allows as equal of comparison as you can effect equipment to in your own listening (+ a friends speakers).  It might mean being able to feed components with sources not originating from USB.  So maybe that previous paragraph only existed to get to this point.  By way of @Kelly's question it might be worthwhile to at least consider what would expand on your ability to do headphone based listening reviews.  In that you are unique among the few who care to contribute articles here on varied equipment and personal experiences. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts. 

 

I write here because I enjoy writing, but it's not for a living . My understanding with Chris is that I will write only on topics that excite me, that I plan to explore anyway, and only if it is fun for me to do. I'm not a professional reviewer, and don't plan to turn into one.

 

What that means is I don't plan to build or assemble systems purely for the purpose of reviews. I'll only write on topics related to my own audio journey. As it relates to these DAC articles/reviews: any review is necessarily incomplete. While I try to be thorough, it was never my intention to cover all the bases. My hope is that others will be motivated to experiment and report their own findings, especially in areas I didn't cover.

 

Lest people think I spend all my hours doing A/B comparisons - horrors! As a fellow contributor on the "Album of the evening" and other music-related threads here, @rando, you know how much I love music itself. Without that there would be no point to any of this!

[rickca]

15 minutes ago, austinpop said:

One of the ideas I've toyed with for a future article, or series, is to summarize the empirical findings from the "novel" thread, and pose them as a call to action to manufacturers.

I think that's an excellent idea.  I've followed that thread closely from the beginning, but I think lots of people would find what you're proposing extremely helpful.  Netting it all out so manufacturers can understand how we got to our current best practices would be awesome. 

[gordec]

On 10/26/2018 at 11:28 AM, Superdad said:

Dear Rajiv:

 

On behalf of myself and John Swenson, I wish to thank you for again including UpTone Audio's unique JS-2 choke-filtered, dual-rail, 5-7 amp linear power supply as a companion piece in your highly informative ongoing survey of DACs.

 

The only further piece of information that I would like to convey is that the JS-2 ($925 with 1 custom 1.5m Oyaide/Belden heavy-gauge, shielded star-quad DC cabe; $75 more for a second cable) is always readily available--in continuous production of about 25 units per month. (I pinch myself when reflecting that its been over 4 years and close to 700 units!)

 

We do sell out most every month, so although there is no AddToCart button on the JS-2's web page, a simple e-mail to us via the contact form will be replied to promptly with a guaranteed ship date (typically 1-2 weeks) and a reasonable freight quote for international FedEx or domestic Priority Mail delivery.

 

Again, we are glad that you have so enjoyed partnering the JS-2 with such fine DACs.  It always delights us—and our clients—when the JS-2 is used to power a quality audio component such as a DAC or DDC (as opposed to various computers, NAS, etc.—which it does fine for as well).

 

With kind regards,

--Alex Crespi

 

Alex,

 

I'm interested in the JS-2. It should be able to power both Pro iDSD and Violetric V281 amp right? I'm new to the whole LPS thing. Also do I need 2 additional power cables to go from the JS2 to the DAC and amp?

[rickca]

I just reread iFi's description of the Pro iDSD power supply, including the use of supercapacitors for the digital section.  Don't you find it weird that this unit responds so markedly to good external PSUs?