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MQA vs HiRez: an apples-to-apples comparison - FINAL


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6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Send me the audio file, and I’ll run it through Deltawave. My software doesn’t analyze screen shots from other software ;)

 

LOL!

 

4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

@pkane2001, what can your software make of this ?

 

Was I stupid there or was  !!

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All right. For some entertainment (and maybe a bit of education) :

 

BDR09.thumb.png.25a9e9eed726a38c23953d1f1bc57900.png

 

4 hours ago, esldude said:

the banding of dips in the noise floor are what I've seen already.   So what are you making of it?  I've seen ADCs with filtering like that.  Or it could be a resampling artifact.

 

Dennis, perfect answer. And exactly why I posed this one.

 

This is a 24 bit 192 KHz 2ch recording with a pair of measurement microphones and it is drums only (the whole kit). But ... the measurement microphones do not go beyond 22KHz much. For @manisandher, this is the "famous" drum kit recording we (and in the end quite some others) listened to as the most "way beyond normal" recording of drums (at that time with the 12" woofers so not 100% indistinguishable for the kick drum and stomach thing - but at the time also in 16/44.1 fashion (!)). 

 

I myself don't even know what I am seeing exactly, except for the banding, which may be some anomaly in the empty not-so-noisy space ? (Dennis ?)

The great fun of this graph could be that you also see quite nice black areas. I'd need to play it back to know what that is, but most probably this is no-cymbals or cow bells or hi-hats, as when I recorded that I also practiced in-a-gadda-da-vida and this is without cymbals etc. The beginning is just lead in and the end lead out.

As this is mostly about comparing cymbals against reality, all the mere intensified area will be about that.

 

If we look at the part which starts at 440s you can see aliasing around close to 45KHz. I don't know why that this, but the more practiced eye can see it. But it also means that everything circling that 45KHz - this is not only above it but also under it - is "fake". This, while most will judge it as "Hires frequency". So the "fake" (better : failed) starts at 25KHz and goes all the way up to in this case 60KHz because nothing more shows.

Knowing this, we can also tell that it is not only at 440s towards the right side happening like this, but it happens throughout. At least the band close to 45KHz is easily visible throughout. It seems a play on its own and even shows energy (like at 250s or 415s).

All look like real mirrors.

 

More fun it is that because of something failing in the ADC indeed we are triggers by "anomaly all over". This can't be Hires !

 

But it is. A 24 bits and 192 KHz of it.

 

That the microphones coincidentally have limited range is a bit of a bummer for something which is 192KHz capable, but this doesn't mean the signal is suddenly band limited. And this is crucial because it implies that no reconstruction is required. Still it is so that the spectral energy we see might be a disturbing factor somewhere. It is really there you know. It might even do some things because of the pattern (say that each 5KHz upwards there's a gap) and it could cause "oscillation" somewhere.

 

More dangerous is the data dependent anomaly. Look at the 440s and rightward again. The difference in the base frequency can be found in the lower frequencies. So they are louder now (more yellow) and thus suddenly we have a mirror at close to 45 KHz.

Possibly there's just a 5KHz thing going on in the ADC.

 

I hope it is clear that I came up with this example, to show you how difficult it is to judge a file for being Hires or not. I myself would have sworn that this one has been manipulated or is heavily failed otherwise. Still it is a real Hires. But the gear failed.

 

3 hours ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

and now I take the other way position : this ECM hires is not flawed. Maybe I'm too naive

 

So what if I tell you that I made this recording in 2010, but *only yesterday* I found this to be the result. And I only found this because I wanted to show you guys how a genuine Hires should look like.

With this I only want to say : I think I am decently going about with everything. I don't fake, I don't lie and if I make up things it is because I don't know better. BUT we all make mistakes. I do and did too. A very best recording ever, but I did not check in the file itself.

Why would I ?

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4 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

All right. For some entertainment (and maybe a bit of education) :

 

BDR09.thumb.png.25a9e9eed726a38c23953d1f1bc57900.png

 

 

Dennis, perfect answer. And exactly why I posed this one.

 

This is a 24 bit 192 KHz 2ch recording with a pair of measurement microphones and it is drums only (the whole kit). But ... the measurement microphones do not go beyond 22KHz much. For @manisandher, this is the "famous" drum kit recording we (and in the end quite some others) listened to as the most "way beyond normal" recording of drums (at that time with the 12" woofers so not 100% indistinguishable for the kick drum and stomach thing - but at the time also in 16/44.1 fashion (!)). 

 

I myself don't even know what I am seeing exactly, except for the banding, which may be some anomaly in the empty not-so-noisy space ? (Dennis ?)

The great fun of this graph could be that you also see quite nice black areas. I'd need to play it back to know what that is, but most probably this is no-cymbals or cow bells or hi-hats, as when I recorded that I also practiced in-a-gadda-da-vida and this is without cymbals etc. The beginning is just lead in and the end lead out.

As this is mostly about comparing cymbals against reality, all the mere intensified area will be about that.

 

If we look at the part which starts at 440s you can see aliasing around close to 45KHz. I don't know why that this, but the more practiced eye can see it. But it also means that everything circling that 45KHz - this is not only above it but also under it - is "fake". This, while most will judge it as "Hires frequency". So the "fake" (better : failed) starts at 25KHz and goes all the way up to in this case 60KHz because nothing more shows.

Knowing this, we can also tell that it is not only at 440s towards the right side happening like this, but it happens throughout. At least the band close to 45KHz is easily visible throughout. It seems a play on its own and even shows energy (like at 250s or 415s).

All look like real mirrors.

 

More fun it is that because of something failing in the ADC indeed we are triggers by "anomaly all over". This can't be Hires !

 

But it is. A 24 bits and 192 KHz of it.

 

That the microphones coincidentally have limited range is a bit of a bummer for something which is 192KHz capable, but this doesn't mean the signal is suddenly band limited. And this is crucial because it implies that no reconstruction is required. Still it is so that the spectral energy we see might be a disturbing factor somewhere. It is really there you know. It might even do some things because of the pattern (say that each 5KHz upwards there's a gap) and it could cause "oscillation" somewhere.

 

More dangerous is the data dependent anomaly. Look at the 440s and rightward again. The difference in the base frequency can be found in the lower frequencies. So they are louder now (more yellow) and thus suddenly we have a mirror at close to 45 KHz.

Possibly there's just a 5KHz thing going on in the ADC.

 

I hope it is clear that I came up with this example, to show you how difficult it is to judge a file for being Hires or not. I myself would have sworn that this one has been manipulated or is heavily failed otherwise. Still it is a real Hires. But the gear failed.

 

 

So what if I tell you that I made this recording in 2010, but *only yesterday* I found this to be the result. And I only found this because I wanted to show you guys how a genuine Hires should look like.

With this I only want to say : I think I am decently going about with everything. I don't fake, I don't lie and if I make up things it is because I don't know better. BUT we all make mistakes. I do and did too. A very best recording ever, but I did not check in the file itself.

Why would I ?

 

Upload the audio file, Peter! I'm now curious to see if there's any ringing in it. Sharp filters could also result in such ringing that I saw in Mani's hires version, but why would anyone apply sharp 24KHz filters to an ostensibly pure hires capture at 96KHz?

 

 

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21 hours ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

Thank you Peter,

 

Which versions do you recommend for Court and Waltz?

 

I own a Pink original Island LP of Court and always marveled at its sound, especially of cymbals, and am OK with the 24/96 remaster that you quote as a negative case for hires ; I own a test pressing of the Analogue Productions 45 RPM of Waltz and have always been puzzled that it doesn’t sound as good as Sunday (I also own a test pressing of the Analogue 45 RPM) ; is it the Stubblebine 24/192 that you criticize ? how about the xrcd or the Analogue SACD mastered by Doug Sax?  Those 3 sound quite different but none is bad IMO

 

As of Brothers, I recommend the MFSL SACD

 

@Mani : a good case for MQA might be Amy Winehouse : sounds better (through HQP’s mqa filter ) than the original LP and 24/96, those 2 never satisfied me ; so maybe something has been made right with the MQA ; a different master?

 

Regards,

Le Concombre

Which Amy Winehouse album and can you recommend any MQA jazz albums? 

Cheers! 

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7 hours ago, Ryan Berry said:

C. Definitely MQA.  Sounds like someone pressed the bass-boost/loudness button.  Individual players loose their "realness."  

 

I agree, the highs come across as more accentuated in C vs. B. But I'm certainly not hearing any bass-boost in C vs. B. Quite the opposite - the bass sounds tauter and more tuneful in C.

 

To my ears, it seems that MQA (C) is 'correcting' the mess made in the creation of the hires (B), and therefore sounding more like the redbook (A).

 

I'm still totally done with all hires. It seems to me that if you can't get properly done hires from ECM/Qobuz, then you're not likely to get it from anywhere. And no wonder MQA sounds strange to some people, if most of it has been derived from 'fake' hires.

 

Mani.

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6 minutes ago, manisandher said:

And no wonder MQA sounds strange to some people, if most of it has been derived from 'fake' hires.

 

Hi Mani - Assumed I was right on this one in the first place (but Paul's observation seems to support this), then it is still the first one I saw. This does not mean that I look at them all but as you know XXHighEnd contains the spectrograph feature, so it can be done easily and comfortably. But where ever I looked, it looked fine to me. Of course, an old master tape full with noise which is presented as hires because the digital transfer was to 24/96, also looks fine to me as in "not faked".

 

So I think this has been an accident, but with the notice that the source seems to be new to us. Qobuz.

And I must emphasize again (OK, I did not really, previously) : all what's fake Hires on HDTracks, did not come out as fake MQA at all. And you can bet I tried a few.

 

Anyway, in my view no reason to ditch MQA. And oh, you can ditch it all right, but I wouldn't do it for this reason. This was just an unlucky pick.

I don't think anyone will blame you for it.

 

Peter

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1 hour ago, manisandher said:

 

I agree, the highs come across as more accentuated in C vs. B. But I'm certainly not hearing any bass-boost in C vs. B. Quite the opposite - the bass sounds tauter and more tuneful in C.

 

To my ears, it seems that MQA (C) is 'correcting' the mess made in the creation of the hires (B), and therefore sounding more like the redbook (A).

 

I'm still totally done with all hires. It seems to me that if you can't get properly done hires from ECM/Qobuz, then you're not likely to get it from anywhere. And no wonder MQA sounds strange to some people, if most of it has been derived from 'fake' hires.

 

Mani.

bass sounds tauter and more tuneful in... B

Whatever...

How do you make sure the masters are the same? Musiscope, yeah, but how does this work? guess that if we hear different, it looks different.

One think I hate MQA for is the standpoint to deliberately deprive us from the top definition of masters for our beloved record companies don't get deprived of the "crown jewels" + I trust as much @mansr and @Miska than @Peterst when it comes to maths and they don't like the maths (leakage etc) at all.

However, I wonder if one issue with hires would come from it NOT being wrongly done but rather not done or created at all. That is, the equivalent of a flat transfer. 

I'll be happy to be enlightened/corrected but my understanding is that there's a mixing when the multi mikes of a mighty drums recorded in a booth are seamed with the multi mikes of the gentle oud recorded in a different space etc etc. And then there used to be a mastering, different engineer, making the stuff palatable for buyers. His tools : eQ, compression, de-essing... and obviously support constraint adaptation if you take the 24/96 to vinyl... But also the choice of hardwares, psu, whathaveyou. In best case scenario there would be a target curve at listening position for the engineer that we can reproduce home and a target SPL, say 92 C at forte.

Besides adaptation to vinyl, or downsampling to CD,  a good mastering never/rarely was a flat transfer, was it ? is it?

I wonder if there's any mastering done between 24/96 mixed in the studio and 24/96 delivered for download...

Let's imagine there's no mastering either, in the sense of eQ, compression etc, to get redbook and mqa, there's still a choice of harwares, softwares, filters made with a human touch. And that might be this human touch I liked better in the Chopin (with redbook) and you with this oud recording with mqa

 

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18 hours ago, Rexp said:

Which Amy Winehouse album and can you recommend any MQA jazz albums? 

Cheers! 

I'm hardly a proponent of mqa and have actually only one : Amy's Back to Black

I was triggered by Peter's suggestion that better/good ones masters were used for Mqa and had always been puzzled by Back to Black, either vinyl or hires.

Different songs order, obviously different Rehab, that is grotesque in 24/96, much tauter tighter drums and bass with MQA; but when I compared other songs, the differences were tinier and harshness in Amy's voice in the MQA version turned me off and I ended listening the 24/96 versions of the other songs

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2 hours ago, manisandher said:

I'm still totally done with all hires. It seems to me that if you can't get properly done hires from ECM/Qobuz, then you're not likely to get it from anywhere. And no wonder MQA sounds strange to some people, if most of it has been derived from 'fake' hires.

 

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

Anyway, in my view no reason to ditch MQA. And oh, you can ditch it all right, but I wouldn't do it for this reason. This was just an unlucky pick.

 

Make that 2 unlucky picks then. I think there was an identical issue with the hires I chose in the original apples-to-apples thread (well-reputed label and downloaded from HDTracks):

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_nIJnB5_WspDOMa_-So4LTB-d11b3Qdv

 

I'm not at home right now to check, but IIRC, this has lots of energy going right up to 44.1 kHz (88.2 sample rate), which looks suspicious. I did actually email the label to ask them where all the HF energy was coming from, but never got a reply.

 

Mani.

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Respectfully and for sake of learning I have to admit that I am not convinced by the arguments provided until now supposed to demonstrate the Hi-Res is 'fake':

- Cymbal energy not decaying

- slight differences in Cepstral analysis between HiRes and MQA.

Well, looking at the 16/44.1 what about Energy and Cepstrum ? Fake 16/44.1 ?

I am not an audio engineer and have limited experience in audio time-frequency analysis, nevertheless in non acoustic and non mixed recordings I am not shocked by the spectrogram  of Mani's files.

Thanks

 

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On 10/29/2018 at 6:42 AM, church_mouse said:

... my conclusion was A and C similar, but I preferred A, with B definitely different but not in good way.  The lower end on B was definitely fuller, but the start and stop off the notes seemed to have gone, the thwack on the string missing, and the top end seemed slightly off.

 

Sorry c_m, I forgot to comment on your post. It seems you're hearing things in pretty much the same way I am.

 

On 10/29/2018 at 6:42 AM, church_mouse said:

I now discover that, as with your previous challenge, I liked the Hi-Res least!

 

That makes 3 of us.

 

On 10/29/2018 at 6:42 AM, church_mouse said:

Grasping for a silver-lining; I guess I can look with cool detachment as vendors seek to tempt me to update my library with with MQA or Hi-Res versions, confident/resigned to the fact that I will probably prefer the Redbook.

 

?

 

Mani.

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4 hours ago, manisandher said:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_nIJnB5_WspDOMa_-So4LTB-d11b3Qdv

 

I'm not at home right now to check, but IIRC, this has lots of energy going right up to 44.1 kHz (88.2 sample rate), which looks suspicious. I did actually email the label to ask them where all the HF energy was coming from, but never got a reply.

 

1952871917_spctr-SampleD.thumb.png.1bb353732e46539dcd68ad3d89962c83.png

(this is 88.2 and please ignore the fact that I display more than 44.1 of frequency range)

 

I see what you mean.

I just listened to it two times and I can't really recognize what this is doing. However, I seem to vaguely see through a. more low energy and b. more "mess" doing this. So for this track what's not doing this : The cymbals, the voice, the (I think) tenor sax. But when it more rumbles with some low frequency something, it's there and it seems also to be encouraged by the what I now call bongos. They may incur for some more squary sound, but it's not that.

It's almost as if I listen to an other track than what this spectrograph is from.

 

Possibly something is just overloading somewhere during the mastering (or mixing). Just too many sounds. Ehm ... a multichannel downmix with this time insufficiently given headroom to do that (like from 4 to 2 requires 6dB extra headroom) ? I have no idea whether that is even possible or how it would look like. Or whether a multichannel exists of this (I suppose you mentioned the artist album title somewhere).

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3 hours ago, manisandher said:

That makes 3 of us.

 

Hmm,  I went back and listened, and still clearly like B better than A.

 

Guess we need to start listing our full chains to the DAC. And whether we used SW OS, or fed native sample rate to the DAC.

 

In my case, I was running:

  • Zenith SE (Roon) > tX-USBultra (ref clocked by Ref-10) > Ayre QX-5 Twenty DAC 
  • Native stream (24/96) sent to DAC
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On 10/28/2018 at 2:32 PM, manisandher said:

Care to tell us which of the samples sounds "obviously" inferior to you? (Understanding of course that we can't generalise your subjective thoughts to everyone else.) 

 

"What sound better" is not matter when we compare a lossless and lossy formats.

 

I consider pure math:

 

Ethalon -> thru a lossless format -> Ethalon

 

Ethalon -> thru a lossy format -> Ethalon + Error

 

I had experience of group opinion bias in sound perception. When same apparatus with same settings sound differently enough in various time moments for single group of people. I suspect, that it was mood matter.

 

So, I prefer don't discuss, what sample sound better for me. Because my opinion and ears are subjective and unstable, result depend on number of variables and say a bit for general conclusions. Even for my own. It is not careful approach to serious claims.

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Mani

 I wouldn't write off genuine high res just yet. Barry Diament's Soundkeeper Recordings will soon be releasing a new album in 16/44.1, 24/96 and a GENUINE 24 /192 resolution. It will be available in .aiff format which it was recorded in, as well as .wav files.

 

Regards

Alex

 

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2 hours ago, sandyk said:

I wouldn't write off genuine high res just yet. Barry Diament's Soundkeeper Recordings will soon be releasing a new album in 16/44.1, 24/96 and a GENUINE 24 /192 resolution. It will be available in .aiff format which it was recorded in, as well as .wav files.

 

Alex, I would love to believe in genuine 24/192. But take a look at the spectrogram for 'Jason Vitelli - Confluence - 06 Say No More':

 

372634305_JasonVitelli-Confluence-06SayNoMore.thumb.JPG.c7852c3c381b30f3e9d67dd61786e11e.JPG

 

Which instrument has energy right up to 96 kHz (!)?

 

I did ask Barry (quite a few years ago now) what could be causing this, and he said he'd ask around... but he never got back to me.

 

Look, I'm not suggesting that this or any other hires is 'fake', in the sense that it's been deliberately derived from a lower resolution master. But the spectrograms do look odd, which suggests that something is off. (Oh, and one of those faint lines lies right on 88.2 kHz!)

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

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Here's the spectrum/spectrograph for 2L's BEETHOVEN Op. 74 Harp Poco Adagio - Allegro in 24/384352.8:

 

337351751_2L-BEETHOVENOp.74HarpPocoAdagio-Allegro24_384.thumb.JPG.9653669b6d9bafc2d77a9ce1dbfb7438.JPG

 

Yes, there's definitely music >22.05 kHz, so a good case for hires perhaps. But this could be captured easily with an 88.2 sample rate. I mean, what on earth is the point of sampling at 384352.8 when there's nothing but noise above 44.1 kHz?

 

Oh, and that faint line lies exactly on 44.1 kHz (!).

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

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8 minutes ago, manisandher said:

Here's the spectrum/spectrograph

 

Mani, more clean is not possible.

IOW, I waited 5 minutes but I think you forgot something to post ...

 

Ahead of things : the 2L recordings do not use any filtering at all - I think they are special at that. But it could also be the difference, when looking at spectrographs of such files.

So show us ... :ph34r:

 

PS: FWIW : I have always said that the 2L DXD recordings (24/352.8) are the only recordings of which I really have the "this is Hires" sensation.

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2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

IOW, I waited 5 minutes but I think you forgot something to post ...

 

2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

So show us ... :ph34r:

 

Should be up now.

 

Mani.

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1 minute ago, manisandher said:

Should be up now.

 

Yep. And exactly how I promised. Including no filtering.

So maybe the ADC's filtering is the bad boy ? Too bad it looks to be a music-frequency-correlated bad boy.

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1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

Yep. And exactly how I promised. Including no filtering.

So maybe the ADC's filtering is the bad boy ? Too bad it looks to be a music-frequency-correlated bad boy.

 

Maybe you didn't see this edit:

 

15 minutes ago, manisandher said:

Oh, and that faint line lies exactly on 44.1 kHz (!).

 

Mani.

Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs

Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers

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