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Soundstage Width cannot extend beyond speakers


STC

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45 minutes ago, semente said:

I thought you were using horns, not omni-directional speakers...

 

Ricardo, I do. Do you or anyone seriously think that there is one place only where one can listen decently to a stereo image ? (or listen casually to a decent stereo image :cool:).

If this is not the case then to me it looks like you have so many standing waves in the room that you seek a position not to catch them, or tweak them out to begin with.

Let's remember, I don't have even any - this could be important (and that in an untreated room all glass and concrete (floor carpeted)).

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8 minutes ago, STC said:

See wiki too.

 

Seriously.

 

Maybe you can explain to me that phenomenon then. Don't paste too much from WiKi pages.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Seriously.

 

Maybe you can explain to me that phenomenon then. Don't paste too much from WiKi pages.

 

 

 Peter, stereo works because of inter channel time and level delay. That is recorded from the center of the stage.  The reproduction must also be between the center of the two speakers. 

 

The simplest example of sweetspot is your headphones. Place on on over your ears and pull the other one about 2 or more inches away. 

 

Or or an example of a guitar recorded 60 degrees to the left of a stereo microphone. This sound will be at 60 degrees when the delay is about 250microseconds between left and right speakers. 

 

If if you move towards the left speakers, your sound will not come from 60 degree to your left but from the direction of the speaker. 

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38 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Ricardo, I do. Do you or anyone seriously think that there is one place only where one can listen decently to a stereo image ? (or listen casually to a decent stereo image :cool:).

If this is not the case then to me it looks like you have so many standing waves in the room that you seek a position not to catch them, or tweak them out to begin with.

Let's remember, I don't have even any - this could be important (and that in an untreated room all glass and concrete (floor carpeted)).

 

In my tiny room I get reasonable imaging anywhere along the long wall that faces the speakers. Side-wall seats get nice sound but no imaging width which seems logical. Tonally it's OK on side-wall seats and quite nice anywhere on the 3-seat sofa facing the speakers.

But I do have some standing waves bouncing around yes.

 

I had a pair of semi-omnis which sounded more even tonally in most parts of the room but imaging was not their forte.

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11 minutes ago, STC said:

That is recorded from the center of the stage.  The reproduction must also be between the center of the two speakers.

 

I hear you. But you forgot the reason of why.

That something is recorded from the center of the stage is irrelevant to begin with. Shift it to the left a little (2 meters, seen from the listener) and it will show up more to the left of the center (of your stereo speakers).

You make it sound like I now must sit 2 meters (or so) more to the left or else there is no stereo image ? This just doesn't make sense.

Of course you said that the mikes must be in the center of the recording. No wait, you don't say that either.

 

What are you saying ?

 

18 minutes ago, STC said:

Or or an example of a guitar recorded 60 degrees to the left of a stereo microphone. This sound will be at 60 degrees when the delay is about 250microseconds between left and right speakers

 

Aha, this gives some clues. You work with time delay.

No.

Nothing in your body works with time delay that I know of. It is all phase. And that per frequency. You obviously think that if you move your head (left / right) for one degree (but say your nose moves 1 cm and with that each of your ears 0.5 cm in opposite direction) that you suddenly are able to catch a time arrival difference between left and right ear of this one cm, which is at 340m/s how few ?

Of course with this you are also saying that for a nice stereo image your nose must point dead-center to the speakers (and must be in the middle of it) ?

 

All works with phase angles and differences between them. From that we derive angle (to the source). And just saying : might you move your head mentioned 1 cm (left/right) you can still envision the angle of where the source is. Or would you say that the source moves ? or that its distance changes ?

 

If a guitar was 60 degrees to the left of a stereo microphone setup (seen from the listener who is in the center of the stage) and you play this back through loudspeakers, if all is right the guitar shows up 60 degrees to the left of an imaginary center, which btw was created by the microphone's distance (to the guitar and all). So the distance is related, and not by means of time again. Just measurable distance by "meter". So if you approach the speaker, the angle to the guitar gets wider. This would happen in reality just the same if you only approach from the middle and keep on that center line.

In some mysterious way when you are at say 5 meters from the speakers and walk sideways, the guitar goes ... where ?

I think the problem with your reasoning could be that you see that 60 degrees as fixed. This is obviously not so.

 

To the latter I should add that your perceived sweetspot also has a defined distance. And Oh, I already know, this is related to the toeing of the speaker, right ?

Wrong. The toeing of the speaker isn't related to a thing, except for waves meeting at another place. Waves of which a kazillion exist in parallel to begin with (just look at your loudspeaker driver(s) and how it radiates sound). If that total beam, thus of one speaker, would be 3 meters wide at the middle position at the distance you reside, you'd have 1,5 meters left/right margin to stay in both beams and perceive stereo image. With a somewhat longer room this 3 meters does not make sense and will merely be the total width of the room and you can be anywhere, sideways.

 

47 minutes ago, STC said:

If if you move towards the left speakers, your sound will not come from 60 degree to your left but from the direction of the speaker. 

 

This one again; yes you are correct. But this is only because the guitar, where-ever it resides, does not move. So if you sufficiently walk to the left then at some stage the guitar is in between you and the speaker. And it doesn't matter whether at first the guitar was in between the speakers somewhere at first, or that it was outside of it to begin with (which is harder to believe for you anyway).

The whole image shifts of course. This is because you're making the angle of "perceivement" smaller. The very same would happen when you'd walk sideways of the real-live stage. Be at 90 degree angle and you'd have all in one plane (longitudinal for you), assumed all the players stood/sat on one line (that line 90 degrees opposed to the normal audience).

 

By now I am not sure why I need all this explanation. I am not making up anything of what I perceive and what I regard normal. Come over and have a listen.

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59 minutes ago, semente said:

In my tiny room I get reasonable imaging anywhere along the long wall that faces the speakers. Side-wall seats get nice sound but no imaging width which seems logical.

 

Where I sit typing (this), is at approximately 7 meters from the left speaker, along the long wall and outside of where the speaker is. Thus, room 8 meters wide, speakers 6 meters apart and I am sitting against a side wall with my nose against the window. Okay, there is a monitor in between.

The whole picture is still present. I must add though that if I watch the mouth of the RH top horn (spitting mid/high) - I am on the left wall -  then I am just capable of seeing its throat, its right hand side of it. Where that not the case then all would lack from the RH speaker (except the bass) and no proper image would be present. And mind you, would both speakers be toed in more, then there would be much more headroom for this (I could sit closer to the LH speaker with still proper image).

 

1 hour ago, semente said:

I had a pair of semi-omnis which sounded more even tonally in most parts of the room but imaging was not their forte.

 

Like say the Ohm ?

Real omnis mess up in my book because they radiate on to everything (also the back) in even proportion and all will be a mess. You may receive a kind of coherent sound, but indeed not with proper imaging.

I have horns for a reason.

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In my current configuration with speakers 2 feet away from treated sidewalls I get an image that can extend up to about 1 meter from the outside of my speakers. The sounds don’t originate from the wall but rather they seem to bend/curve some distance away from the wall towards my listening position. Think of it like those curved screen computer monitors. Of course I’ve heard much wider at various shows.

 

I’m at a loss on how anyone could think there’s no soundstage beyond the speaker’s edge. The only thing I can think of is that you have a junk setup AND you’ve never been to an audio show or visited a decent dealer showroom.

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2 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Where I sit typing (this), is at approximately 7 meters from the left speaker, along the long wall and outside of where the speaker is. Thus, room 8 meters wide, speakers 6 meters apart and I am sitting against a side wall with my nose against the window. Okay, there is a monitor in between.

The whole picture is still present. I must add though that if I watch the mouth of the RH top horn (spitting mid/high) - I am on the left wall -  then I am just capable of seeing its throat, its right hand side of it. Where that not the case then all would lack from the RH speaker (except the bass) and no proper image would be present. And mind you, would both speakers be toed in more, then there would be much more headroom for this (I could sit closer to the LH speaker with still proper image).

 

 

Like say the Ohm ?

Real omnis mess up in my book because they radiate on to everything (also the back) in even proportion and all will be a mess. You may receive a kind of coherent sound, but indeed not with proper imaging.

I have horns for a reason.

 

My short experience with horns was very positive in terms of imaging and in reducing side-wall reflections.

I may go back to them at some point, but for now I'm stuck in this minuscule university accomodation.

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3 hours ago, semente said:

In my tiny room I get reasonable imaging anywhere along the long wall that faces the speakers. Side-wall seats get nice sound but no imaging width which seems logical. Tonally it's OK on side-wall seats and quite nice anywhere on the 3-seat sofa facing the speakers.

But I do have some standing waves bouncing around yes.

I do too, but then I have a pair of curved-screen electrostatics. The section of the ESL driver that's facing you acts like a line source (it seems), so as long as the listener is within the arc of both drivers, he/she/it gets a decent stereo image. Obviously a speaker such as the MLB Radialsthaler does a similar thing, but over an obviously wider arc.

George

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15 minutes ago, semente said:

My short experience with horns was very positive in terms of imaging and in reducing side-wall reflections.

 

Maybe I'm confusing, but at this time of year, the curtains on the side walls are opened when the sun is down and the music starts, because I kind of need the reflections. Not to disagree with you, but only indicating that without the side wall reflections things don't work well (with beaming horns) which is a kind of opposite this (I think good) thread is about.

In winter time when the curtains kind of need to be closed, there are far less U-F-O's in this room.

 

Scotty ...

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My system would, as far as I know, be considered modest but decent in the context of this forum and your typical audiophile discussion. It's also in a small room, approx 110 sq ft, with some asymmetries, with the speakers 5 feet apart (from vertical center of driver to vertical center of driver) and not quite as far from the side or rear walls as I'd ideally like (1.5 ft from side walls, 1 ft from rear wall).

 

I don't have special room treatments, but the room is "naturally" pretty good, as it has wall-to-wall carpet, an upholstered loveseat in the listening position, and a ceiling that's about 7'8" (in other words not the dreaded even 8') - in other words it's not acoustically dead, but it's not a problematically reflective room.

 

Even with this far from ideal setup, I regularly hear sounds coming from outside the width of the speakers. I don't hear it all the time. With some recordings my speakers are not "invisible" as I'd prefer, but I never feel like I'm listening to just two boxes, and with some recordings the stereo image absolutely floats in space independently of the speakers. I also sometimes hear enough soundstage depth where some sounds seem to be in a plane aligned more or less with the rear of the speakers, if not actually behind them.

 

I'm not an expert on psychoachoustics or even just acoustics. But based on my own experience - not to mention a few decades of hearing my father's various high-end systems and many systems in showrooms and such - it's possible, and not super-rare, for the stereo image to seem wider than the speakers.

 

In fact, I found the number-one, most significant improvement in stereo imaging - including image width - was to move my speakers closer to each other and farther from the side walls. In my experience, most people array their speakers too far apart for their listening distance, with the understandable but misguided idea that wider speaker placement must equal wider soundstage. In my experience that's not the case. Moving mine from 6 feet apart to 5 feet apart made a huge difference.

 

I haven't messed with my setup in recent months because I'll be moving into a new house, with a dedicated listening room, in 4-6 months, so I figure there's no point since my current setup already gives me daily enjoyment even if it's not perfect. I am looking forward to having a slightly larger, more symmetrical space in the future, though - i am hopeful that the new room will enable me to further enhance the soundstage performance of my current equipment

 

Finally, my secondary system is hyper-non-optimized. It's my TV system, and audio-wise it's a pair of those Pioneer BSLR22 speakers, on either side of a flat-screen TV. The speakers are not even 3 feet apart, and they rest on a bench-type piece of furniture. and they are backed by a partial wall, with the result that the L speaker has solid wall behind it but the R speaker only has part of a wall behind it. And the listening distance is barely 5 feet. And even with that, I regularly hear sounds coming from beyond the width of the speakers.

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33 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

Even with this far from ideal setup, I regularly hear sounds coming from outside the width of the speakers. I don't hear it all the time. 

 

Are these real stereo recordings made with a pair of mics?

 

Are you using valves anywhere in your system?

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4 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Are these real stereo recordings made with a pair of mics?

 

Are you using valves anywhere in your system?

All solid state, and I'd also say a pretty darned neutral and detailed-sounding system. I have some two-mic/binaural recordings, but very few, so generally speaking, no, not "real" stereo recordings.

 

One thing I forgot to mention in my prior comment, which goes along with the "I'm not an expert" comment, is that I cannot claim that when I hear sounds outside the width of the speakers, I am hearing a 100% accurate or natural soundstage. 

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1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

 

Maybe I'm confusing, but at this time of year, the curtains on the side walls are opened when the sun is down and the music starts, because I kind of need the reflections. Not to disagree with you, but only indicating that without the side wall reflections things don't work well (with beaming horns) which is a kind of opposite this (I think good) thread is about.

In winter time when the curtains kind of need to be closed, there are far less U-F-O's in this room.

 

Scotty ...

 

My own living room back home has 3.3m high thick solid stone and brick plastered walls...very reflective stuff. This is why I liked the beaminess of the tractrix round midrange horns.

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3 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

All solid state, and I'd also say a pretty darned neutral and detailed-sounding system. I have some two-mic/binaural recordings, but very few, so generally speaking, no, not "real" stereo recordings.

 

One thing I forgot to mention in my prior comment, which goes along with the "I'm not an expert" comment, is that I cannot claim that when I hear sounds outside the width of the speakers, I am hearing a 100% accurate or natural soundstage. 

 

That explains it. Real stereo does not produce images outside of the speakers but this can be done with processing during production of multi-track recordings.

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8 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Competent stereo sound has an "everywhere" sweet spot - that's the good part of the experience.

 

Here's the definition of sweet spot as per Stereophile's Glossary:

 

sweet spot That listening seat from which the best soundstage presentation is heard. Usually a center seat equidistant from the loudspeakers.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/sounds-audio-glossary-glossary-r-s

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7 hours ago, semente said:

From what I understand, with a real stereo two-track recording you can't get images produced outside of the are between the speakers.

 

Why not? I don't know where this assumption comes from. There are many different types of speakers. In the most extreme case, IEMs, or any headphone, the soundstage clearly extends beyond the "speakers", front, back, side to side ... 

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1 minute ago, jabbr said:

 

Why not? I don't know where this assumption comes from. There are many different types of speakers. In the most extreme case, IEMs, or any headphone, the soundstage clearly extends beyond the "speakers", front, back, side to side ... 

I was not talking about earspeakers (I don't really care for them).

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23 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

No but it should be evident to anyone that has used them, that sound emanates from two points (stereo) and the soundstage as reconstructed by the ear/brain extends far far beyond the physical location of the transducers.

Indeed. But as far as I understand the topic is about loudspeakers, not earspeakers.

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1 minute ago, semente said:

Indeed. But as far as I understand the topic is about loudspeakers, not earspeakers.

 

Ok, so let's take some small planar loudspeakers -- do those count?

 

Now place one directly to the side of your right ear and the second one directly to the side of your left ear.

 

Listen.

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25 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Ok, so let's take some small planar loudspeakers -- do those count?

 

Now place one directly to the side of your right ear and the second one directly to the side of your left ear.

 

Listen.

 

Why do you want me to be wrong?

Are speakers meant to be positioned like that?

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

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