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Hi,

I did a quick check of things immediately around me at home.

 

Google Chromecast - Made in China.

Cherry Keyboard - Made in China.

Dell Laptop - Made in China.

Bosch Kettle - Made in China.

Home Electricity Energy Tracking Device - Made in China.

 

The reason goods are made in China is because of the profits to be made by the western companies due to the extremely cheap labour from China including material costs. It is not because they are good engineers - this is secondary at best.

 

What i do not understand is, if patriotism is such an important thing in the US, then why do the US people ignore the product origins and why not only buy those goods that support US labour ?

 

The current tarrifs may be politically motivated, but then, isn't this just supporting the patriotism that is part of the US culture ?

 

Regards,

Shadders.

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a few trade policy tidbits...

 

China needs resources from us (soybeans, etc.) and needs materials from Africa

 

other countries have produced shoddy goods for export - Japan in the 1950s and early '60s - tho you would not realize it today (partly due to JIS and similar efforts)

 

the US also produced shoddy goods for export -- in the mid to late 1800s - they/us/US produced el cheapo furniture for England 

 

Today, the US is a manf. giant (but not in consumer goods - if you need a gas turbine or aircraft, pharma - the US is where it's at)

 

Manf. in the US has not decline much or any - but manf. jobs have ---> it will get worse as robotics claims more & more of those jobs.

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1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

a few trade policy tidbits...

 

China needs resources from us (soybeans, etc.) and needs materials from Africa

 

other countries have produced shoddy goods for export - Japan in the 1950s and early '60s - tho you would not realize it today (partly due to JIS and similar efforts)

 

the US also produced shoddy goods for export -- in the mid to late 1800s - they/us/US produced el cheapo furniture for England 

 

Today, the US is a manf. giant (but not in consumer goods - if you need a gas turbine or aircraft, pharma - the US is where it's at)

 

Manf. in the US has not decline much or any - but manf. jobs have ---> it will get worse as robotics claims more & more of those jobs.

 

I would debate that China can get anything we supply from other places.

 

As you point out, they have been developing resources in Africa for decades. We extend enormous resources in Africa too, but mostly on humanitarian projects. 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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and on military projects...

 

besides soybeans, rice & lumber (they can get the latter form Canada tho)

 

anyway - every economist will tell you to make stuff where it is cheapest and engage in trade - that will always work out best in the long run

 

OTOH, one of the greatest economists noted that "In the long run we shall all be dead."

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China is now making noises about rare earths...

 

people all over the world have the fear that the US will lose its international supremacy - if you have one country in charge of a planet, it is best to choose carefully -- and even the Germans don't want their fellows or govt. to be in charge; so who is left?  Japan?  maybe France? (if you have to be colonized by a Euro-power, they were likely the best bet; good food and they can run things ok)

 

OTOH, nobody wants a trumped up USA in charge

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

maybe France? (if you have to be colonized by a Euro-power, they were likely the best bet; good food and they can run things ok)

Ralf,
Which is your perspective on how France is running things???
2 bottles of Huet and everything is looking ok from your veranda? 
I'd say, for an example,  Switzerland or Netherlands are running (most) things ok, their economic/social/political coordinates are much less problematically than the same facts for France. La France has as well a presidential system, where parliament and goverment have effectivly only a small impact on decision making, which in turn feeds the need of other forces (like SNCF/Gilets Jaunes/Students/Farmers) to make their interest being heard/manifested in their particular ways. There is no effective social balancing by the state in F..
How should that France find an equilibrium for the world ?

Cheers, Tom

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On 5/20/2019 at 1:52 PM, Paul R said:

. They outnumber us, have a much bigger military, nuclear weapons, and the largest economy in the world. 

 .

 

They have a fraction of the nuclear weapons we have and while they have more boots on the ground, their military is also a fraction of the size of ours. 

 

https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_China_vs_USA

 

And they wish they had our GDP. (Although probably not our debt).

 

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/usa

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4 hours ago, daverich4 said:

 

They have a fraction of the nuclear weapons we have and while they have more boots on the ground, their military is also a fraction of the size of ours. 

 

https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_China_vs_USA

 

And they wish they had our GDP. (Although probably not our debt).

 

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/usa

 

Absolutely true. :). 

 

However, though they have a fraction of the nuclear weapons we have, they also have the capability to deliver those weapons. Something very few hostile countries have. We do not have a perfected capability to knock them out of the air before they reach our territory either.  On top of that, the Chinese now have space capability -- which means that they can target those devices accurately. And they have the capability to interfere with sat based communications. That adds up to a pretty nerve-wracking set of capabilities! 

 

I agree as well about the numbers in boots, but they have roughly twice as many active military personnel as we do, and something like 8 million reservists. Unlike 30-40 years ago, those numbers now mean a lot more because they are backing much more high tech weaponry, and are capable of using that high tech effectively. They are constantly increasing that capability as well. 

 

Another factor is that the Chinese military is becoming much more a professional fighting force, emulating the U.S., British, USSR Era, and French military forces. Pride and Espirt d'Corps is considered important in the modern Chinese military. Corruption is also being slowly wiped out in their armed forces. 

 

They don't wish for our GPD, because they can barely handle the explosion and cultural changes as it is, and they do have one of the hottest economies on the planet. But they will get it anyway, and I wish them all the troubles we have with ours. 

 

I absolutely love this subject, so please excuse any excess enthusiasm that leaks through in this reply. :)

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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2 hours ago, Paul R said:

is becoming much more a professional fighting force, emulating the U.S.

 

The Chinese really copy everything, do they ? O.o

 

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

And they have the capability to interfere with sat based communications.

 

Yeah, they said to have set their Honor phones to target at the US. But now you are the first not to buy them. That's sad.

 

Btw, of what I understood it is going to be a bit useless to cut out Huwawei as a hardware provider because each single other party who can provide the hardware requires licenses from Huwawei. It seems we (yea, we too over here in Europe) can't get around them much. All you can do is throw an old woman in jail. But even that is not going to help. No any more.

Overpowered.

 

This psychological warfare costs trillions a day at this moment. And if I were Trump I'd put out a bad tweet on day one after his conglomerate going short on the stocks involved (e.g. blue chips), and next day go long on them prior to a happy tweet.

And at this moment I suspect him of doing that for real. There's a pattern visible by now.

Now how do I get friends with dear Donald ...

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1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

 

The Chinese really copy everything, do they ? O.o

 

Not from the US, at least not yet. The do seem extraordinarily gifted at taking the best parts of whatever they really like though. 

 

Quote

 

 

Yeah, they said to have set their Honor phones to target at the US. But now you are the first not to buy them. That's sad.

 

Btw, of what I understood it is going to be a bit useless to cut out Huwawei as a hardware provider because each single other party who can provide the hardware requires licenses from Huwawei. It seems we (yea, we too over here in Europe) can't get around them much. All you can do is throw an old woman in jail. But even that is not going to help. No any more.

Overpowered.

 

Well, I do have to admit I was very annoyed to find out my DJI drone was sending stuff back to a China via the internet. If they infringe on one of my photos, I will do my best to start an international incident. 🤪👹

 

Quote

This psychological warfare costs trillions a day at this moment. And if I were Trump I'd put out a bad tweet on day one after his conglomerate going short on the stocks involved (e.g. blue chips), and next day go long on them prior to a happy tweet.

And at this moment I suspect him of doing that for real. There's a pattern visible by now.

Now how do I get friends with dear Donald ...

 

No argument from me.

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Hi,

To add to this - there is a current issue in regards to British Steel (was hived off from Tata) in that it has now gone into receivership today. Why did this occur - please see :

 

https://news.sky.com/story/the-surprising-facts-behind-the-declining-steel-industry-11725482

 

The last paragraph states "And yet it is still struggling, amid competition from China, environmental costs and the difficulties of competing against foreign counterparts who get constant support from their governments"

 

So in the UK we have to meet carbon targets, and China doesn't care about those. They are constantly getting help from their governments, where under European Law we cannot help.

 

One aspect is, the Chinese government are wilfully and purposefully driving down the costs of steel to ensure that no other country can compete. The Chinese government are actively and intentionally, harming the other businesses in the world.

 

So, what else can you do, if your ethos and strategy is to create a fair and open trading culture, bound by laws, and another country is determined to undermine you, at the very least ?

 

Whether you like Trump or not, at least he is taking action against aggressive foreign power.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

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35 minutes ago, Shadders said:

Whether you like Trump or not, at least he is taking action against aggressive foreign power.

 

As a chicken without a head, as we say over here.

 

I agree with what you say, but that doesn't mean that 90% (just naming a number) of other goods are a necessity to obtain from China because they don't exist elsewhere. Not in this world anno 2019.

 

I have an other one for you from a couple of years ago - you may recall it:

Chinese workers came to Europe (I forgot the country(s)) which were actually prisoners and thus could work for 100% free. By this means work was obtained which obviously was infinitely more expensive when it would have been executed by locals.

Smart eh ?

A meanest thing to do but smart.

Trumpeteers will lose from such means.

 

Btw, China can use some pigs in due time. :|

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http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-prisoners-used-as-labourers-in-developing-countries-19180.html

I guess I referred to this.

 

A bit of context could be that in the US this may not be 100% strange because in the US (ankle chained) prisoners do government work like cleaning roads or working in the woods etc. In Europe we don't know about this phenomenon that I know of.

 

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Hi,

I was not aware of the Chinese allowing their people to be used in such a manner. I am surprised that Europe allowed this - as the EuCHR would not allow for this.

 

In the UK, people do have to complete community service if they commit crimes, else it is gaol.

 

As you can see, it is the Chinese regime that is the problem, not the people.

 

What is annoying, is that within the EU, the UK abides by all the rules, yet some states ignore them, and the EU does nothing. We in the UK abide by the rules to the detriment of UK industry, but other countries flout the laws and ensure that their own industries take preference. This is one of the reasons that Brexit was voted for.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

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On 5/21/2019 at 2:45 AM, MetalNuts said:

The trade war is mostly not for the welfare/benefit of the ordinary US citizen who will somehow suffer from the increased price of the imported products.  The trade war has one very important goal which is to suppress other country or countries to become economic strong enough that the politicians consider a threat and what else could be better than justifying it as national security which affords almost unquestionable power to the authorities. 

 

I don't see how another country becoming an economic threat/power is a bad thing, unless the US develops a dependency on one trading partner (or cartel of partners colluding against the US). Trade benefits both sides. Restricting trade for national security or human rights  reasons is another thing.

mQa is dead!

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17 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Ralf,
Which is your perspective on how France is running things???
2 bottles of Huet and everything is looking ok from your veranda? 
I'd say, for an example,  Switzerland or Netherlands are running (most) things ok, their economic/social/political coordinates are much less problematically than the same facts for France. La France has as well a presidential system, where parliament and goverment have effectivly only a small impact on decision making, which in turn feeds the need of other forces (like SNCF/Gilets Jaunes/Students/Farmers) to make their interest being heard/manifested in their particular ways. There is no effective social balancing by the state in F..
How should that France find an equilibrium for the world ?

Cheers, Tom

 

LOL!  It would seem that there is an election for which country should be in charge of a planet.

mQa is dead!

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