Popular Post cjf Posted May 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2019 On 5/12/2019 at 10:55 AM, Paul R said: And... you really believe these ridiculous tariffs are going to combat the problem of IP theft? How else does one country go about punishing another country that never plays by any rules? Before answering, add to that the obvious which is that its in neither countries best interest to go to war with each other. Seems to me like tariffs are a pretty nasty non-lethal weapon if you know that your adversary has an economy heavily reliant on you purchasing their goods. Hit them in the pocket book, it works every time. And when your talking about money in the scales of magnitude this large; your going have their full undivided attention where otherwise you would only hear them laughing at you (as they have done for the past 25+ years.). The folks in the US bitching and moaning about the tariffs would rather buy cheap shit from an adversary (who may very well have stolen the plans to make said product) rather than building and funding their own economy. Shadders, jventer, lucretius and 1 other 3 1 My Audio System -Last Updated May 20 2021 Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted May 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2019 40 minutes ago, cjf said: How else does one country go about punishing another country that never plays by any rules? Before answering, add to that the obvious which is that its in neither countries best interest to go to war with each other. Seems to me like tariffs are a pretty nasty non-lethal weapon if you know that your adversary has an economy heavily reliant on you purchasing their goods. Hit them in the pocket book, it works every time. And when your talking about money in the scales of magnitude this large; your going have their full undivided attention where otherwise you would only hear them laughing at you (as they have done for the past 25+ years.). The folks in the US bitching and moaning about the tariffs would rather buy cheap shit from an adversary (who may very well have stolen the plans to make said product) rather than building and funding their own economy. I think you are taking an edge case and applying it as a generality. The vast vast majority of goods from China are either designed here or in other first world countries and contracted for production there. There are also Chinese designed goods that U.S. companies are paying to re-label as their own - often original Chinese designs. The Chinese are really good engineers designers and technical/manufacturing folks. They work their asses off over there. So tariffs - do they really hurt Chinese suppliers when the U.S. and most of the world market has no place else to get their goods? No, they do not. Do they hurt the middle class and poor U.S. consumers? Yes, they do. Why? They generate rage to be used by crooked politicians to deflect the public from more important things. It also serves to keep the "middle class" and poor in their places, because of course, the 1% and above are not going to care about a few extra hundred dollars here or there. Tariffs are just going to hurt people for the gain of "fat cat" politicians. Don't kid yourself they are there for any other reason. It is just the start of the 2020 election run, nothing more. Teresa, lucretius, opus101 and 1 other 3 1 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Shadders Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Hi, I did a quick check of things immediately around me at home. Google Chromecast - Made in China. Cherry Keyboard - Made in China. Dell Laptop - Made in China. Bosch Kettle - Made in China. Home Electricity Energy Tracking Device - Made in China. The reason goods are made in China is because of the profits to be made by the western companies due to the extremely cheap labour from China including material costs. It is not because they are good engineers - this is secondary at best. What i do not understand is, if patriotism is such an important thing in the US, then why do the US people ignore the product origins and why not only buy those goods that support US labour ? The current tarrifs may be politically motivated, but then, isn't this just supporting the patriotism that is part of the US culture ? Regards, Shadders. elcorso 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted May 20, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 20, 2019 Ugh - this is probably difficult to explain to someone not from here, but “Patriotism” is one of those words that means a lot of different things, and people hold radically different ideas about it. It is also another term used and abused by some politicians. Pretty much, most of us agree a Patriot puts the welfare of others, including the country as a whole, before their own. But it is quite debatable if the average politician ever does that. Trade agreements are especially subject to question. Most people see no benefit in paying more money for computers, frying pans, brushes, refrigerators, cars, washing machines, televisions, and so on. It really only advantages large corporations in that they pass on the costs to the consumer, and pay even less taxes. Oh, and the politician able to scare people into thinking he is their only hope to avoid even higher prices. That is not Patriotism to most people here, it is more like craven self interest, and I think, to a lot of people like me who were military, it is rather disgusting. Tariffs are not not seen by many as a Patriotic thing, because a trade war isn’t a real war, and especially, because one isn’t necessary right now. There are no resources being withheld to damage the country. As for example, oil was withheld from Japan in the late 1930s. That was not being “patriotic” either, just another shit situation with a lot of similarities to today. Except unlike Japan of 1938, China does not particularly need resources from us anymore, it is quite the opposite. They outnumber us, have a much bigger military, nuclear weapons, and the largest economy in the world. Much more dangerous than Japan ever was to mess with. In in any event, I envy you guys - you went through where we are today centuries ago, and figured out ways to make it work. But you only had 4 (6?) states to contend with. We have 50 and a couple protectorates, some of which are larger than the entire UK as well as being more populous. We are always doing the delicate dance of state’s rights vs. the federal government. And we always have so many people disagreeing with everything and each other. That may be our most valuable freedom, but it is also our biggest vulnerability. Free people are quite vulnerable to coordinated misinformation attacks by groups with agendas that override any morality. “We are going to lie to them, but it is for their own good!” That is what is often disguised as Patriotism here, and it is anything but. The tariffs are a great example. IMHO, YMMV, etc. lucretius, Teresa and Shadders 1 2 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 a few trade policy tidbits... China needs resources from us (soybeans, etc.) and needs materials from Africa other countries have produced shoddy goods for export - Japan in the 1950s and early '60s - tho you would not realize it today (partly due to JIS and similar efforts) the US also produced shoddy goods for export -- in the mid to late 1800s - they/us/US produced el cheapo furniture for England Today, the US is a manf. giant (but not in consumer goods - if you need a gas turbine or aircraft, pharma - the US is where it's at) Manf. in the US has not decline much or any - but manf. jobs have ---> it will get worse as robotics claims more & more of those jobs. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Ralf11 said: a few trade policy tidbits... China needs resources from us (soybeans, etc.) and needs materials from Africa other countries have produced shoddy goods for export - Japan in the 1950s and early '60s - tho you would not realize it today (partly due to JIS and similar efforts) the US also produced shoddy goods for export -- in the mid to late 1800s - they/us/US produced el cheapo furniture for England Today, the US is a manf. giant (but not in consumer goods - if you need a gas turbine or aircraft, pharma - the US is where it's at) Manf. in the US has not decline much or any - but manf. jobs have ---> it will get worse as robotics claims more & more of those jobs. I would debate that China can get anything we supply from other places. As you point out, they have been developing resources in Africa for decades. We extend enormous resources in Africa too, but mostly on humanitarian projects. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 and on military projects... besides soybeans, rice & lumber (they can get the latter form Canada tho) anyway - every economist will tell you to make stuff where it is cheapest and engage in trade - that will always work out best in the long run OTOH, one of the greatest economists noted that "In the long run we shall all be dead." Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 7 hours ago, Ralf11 said: OTOH, one of the greatest economists noted that "In the long run we shall all be dead." Entropy is the great equalizer... Ralf11 1 No electron left behind. Link to comment
Popular Post MetalNuts Posted May 21, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2019 Why there is a trade deficit? At least one of the many reasons is self-made: US forbid or try to forbid exporting high tech products to China which should be more valuable than the agricultural products. US has only 1/3 of the population of China but they buy from China more than China buying from US. Are the US more wealthy then or they get into the culture of over spending? How much average savings a US citizen has compared to the citizen of China? If US has over spent then where does the money come from? One of the sources is the US government bond sold to China and China holds a substantial percentage of the total US government bond. This may mean that China is actually at least in part funding US for the import and trade deficit with other countries including China. The trade war is mostly not for the welfare/benefit of the ordinary US citizen who will somehow suffer from the increased price of the imported products. The trade war has one very important goal which is to suppress other country or countries to become economic strong enough that the politicians consider a threat and what else could be better than justifying it as national security which affords almost unquestionable power to the authorities. What are the threats? How many of you will consider it likely that China will send its army to US and engage warfare and how many of you will consider it the other way round? Or the threat is the fear that US will lose its international supremacy. If so, what means should US to maintain its supremacy? It seems that the earlier generation had and did improve itself in many ways to maintain its supremacy but now it seems that it does not try to improve itself and adopt the strategy of suppressing other countries from developing. I did not in anyway comment who or what is right or wrong. It is not for me to comment on what the politician should or should not do. I just plainly laid down those facts for you to consider. Below is a local gag translated for you: In the meeting between the high ranking government representatives between US and China: US : "Before we proceed with the agenda of the meeting, I would like to ask whether your government will buy more our government bond and we are running out of money to spend" China: "Yes, of course, we have been holding a lot of your government bond and will continue to do so" US: "Good" China: "We really want to narrow the trade deficit with you and we want to buy from you high technologies and save money on developing them and we can buy more your government bond then, we have policies to encourage joint ventures in manufacturing products which involved those high technologies, we provide the land for the establishment, invest the capital needed and you can have cheap labours and tax advantage and have equal share of the profits of such joint ventures" US: "It is very tempting, it suit us if we do not have to pay you a cent and a bigger share of the profits but we will not allow to share with you the technology" China: "Then forget about the joint ventures, how about selling directly to us those high technology products cos' the import of those to us will surely narrow the trade deficit" US: "No, No. That is not on the table" China: "Then what else can we buy from you, those you offer to sell are what we can produce at a much lower price, and some of those you offer is in fact made in the factory in our country" US: "Peace, your submission to our demand will release you from our imminent threat temporarily". Paul R, Teresa and PeterSt 1 2 MetalNuts Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted May 21, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 21, 2019 54 minutes ago, MetalNuts said: Why there is a trade deficit? At least one of the many reasons is self-made: US forbid or try to forbid exporting high tech products to China which should be more valuable than the agricultural products. US has only 1/3 of the population of China but they buy from China more than China buying from US. Are the US more wealthy then or they get into the culture of over spending? How much average savings a US citizen has compared to the citizen of China? If US has over spent then where does the money come from? One of the sources is the US government bond sold to China and China holds a substantial percentage of the total US government bond. This may mean that China is actually at least in part funding US for the import and trade deficit with other countries including China. The trade war is mostly not for the welfare/benefit of the ordinary US citizen who will somehow suffer from the increased price of the imported products. The trade war has one very important goal which is to suppress other country or countries to become economic strong enough that the politicians consider a threat and what else could be better than justifying it as national security which affords almost unquestionable power to the authorities. What are the threats? How many of you will consider it likely that China will send its army to US and engage warfare and how many of you will consider it the other way round? Or the threat is the fear that US will lose its international supremacy. If so, what means should US to maintain its supremacy? It seems that the earlier generation had and did improve itself in many ways to maintain its supremacy but now it seems that it does not try to improve itself and adopt the strategy of suppressing other countries from developing. I did not in anyway comment who or what is right or wrong. It is not for me to comment on what the politician should or should not do. I just plainly laid down those facts for you to consider. Below is a local gag translated for you: In the meeting between the high ranking government representatives between US and China: US : "Before we proceed with the agenda of the meeting, I would like to ask whether your government will buy more our government bond and we are running out of money to spend" China: "Yes, of course, we have been holding a lot of your government bond and will continue to do so" US: "Good" China: "We really want to narrow the trade deficit with you and we want to buy from you high technologies and save money on developing them and we can buy more your government bond then, we have policies to encourage joint ventures in manufacturing products which involved those high technologies, we provide the land for the establishment, invest the capital needed and you can have cheap labours and tax advantage and have equal share of the profits of such joint ventures" US: "It is very tempting, it suit us if we do not have to pay you a cent and a bigger share of the profits but we will not allow to share with you the technology" China: "Then forget about the joint ventures, how about selling directly to us those high technology products cos' the import of those to us will surely narrow the trade deficit" US: "No, No. That is not on the table" China: "Then what else can we buy from you, those you offer to sell are what we can produce at a much lower price, and some of those you offer is in fact made in the factory in our country" US: "Peace, your submission to our demand will release you from our imminent threat temporarily". Well said. For decades, China has been developing their own resources, educated here and other places around the world. They hardly need the U.S. anymore for technology. Just in 2018, they performed the most accurate measurement of the gravitational constant to date, cloned some Maque Monkeys, created nanobots to fight cancer, picked up some darn mysterious signals related to dark matter, had some archeological achievments, and visualized the atomic structure of hydrated atoms. And who knows what else? Hard science achievements like that - over such a wide range of subject areas - are not done by second rate countries. 4est, Teresa, bunno77 and 1 other 3 1 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 China is now making noises about rare earths... people all over the world have the fear that the US will lose its international supremacy - if you have one country in charge of a planet, it is best to choose carefully -- and even the Germans don't want their fellows or govt. to be in charge; so who is left? Japan? maybe France? (if you have to be colonized by a Euro-power, they were likely the best bet; good food and they can run things ok) OTOH, nobody wants a trumped up USA in charge Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 Well, that is history happening. Those who refuse to study history are doomed to repeat it, and there is little question that the U.S. is in a decline right now. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 of course, those who do study history are doomed to misinterpret it... lucretius 1 Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: of course, those who do study history are doomed to misinterpret it... Naw, merely to be ignored. It’s like constantly explaining Nyquist-Shannon. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
DuckToller Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: maybe France? (if you have to be colonized by a Euro-power, they were likely the best bet; good food and they can run things ok) Ralf, Which is your perspective on how France is running things??? 2 bottles of Huet and everything is looking ok from your veranda? I'd say, for an example, Switzerland or Netherlands are running (most) things ok, their economic/social/political coordinates are much less problematically than the same facts for France. La France has as well a presidential system, where parliament and goverment have effectivly only a small impact on decision making, which in turn feeds the need of other forces (like SNCF/Gilets Jaunes/Students/Farmers) to make their interest being heard/manifested in their particular ways. There is no effective social balancing by the state in F.. How should that France find an equilibrium for the world ? Cheers, Tom Ralf11 1 Link to comment
daverich4 Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 On 5/20/2019 at 1:52 PM, Paul R said: . They outnumber us, have a much bigger military, nuclear weapons, and the largest economy in the world. . They have a fraction of the nuclear weapons we have and while they have more boots on the ground, their military is also a fraction of the size of ours. https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_China_vs_USA And they wish they had our GDP. (Although probably not our debt). https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/usa Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 4 hours ago, daverich4 said: They have a fraction of the nuclear weapons we have and while they have more boots on the ground, their military is also a fraction of the size of ours. https://armedforces.eu/compare/country_China_vs_USA And they wish they had our GDP. (Although probably not our debt). https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/usa Absolutely true. :). However, though they have a fraction of the nuclear weapons we have, they also have the capability to deliver those weapons. Something very few hostile countries have. We do not have a perfected capability to knock them out of the air before they reach our territory either. On top of that, the Chinese now have space capability -- which means that they can target those devices accurately. And they have the capability to interfere with sat based communications. That adds up to a pretty nerve-wracking set of capabilities! I agree as well about the numbers in boots, but they have roughly twice as many active military personnel as we do, and something like 8 million reservists. Unlike 30-40 years ago, those numbers now mean a lot more because they are backing much more high tech weaponry, and are capable of using that high tech effectively. They are constantly increasing that capability as well. Another factor is that the Chinese military is becoming much more a professional fighting force, emulating the U.S., British, USSR Era, and French military forces. Pride and Espirt d'Corps is considered important in the modern Chinese military. Corruption is also being slowly wiped out in their armed forces. They don't wish for our GPD, because they can barely handle the explosion and cultural changes as it is, and they do have one of the hottest economies on the planet. But they will get it anyway, and I wish them all the troubles we have with ours. I absolutely love this subject, so please excuse any excess enthusiasm that leaks through in this reply. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
PeterSt Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Paul R said: is becoming much more a professional fighting force, emulating the U.S. The Chinese really copy everything, do they ? 2 hours ago, Paul R said: And they have the capability to interfere with sat based communications. Yeah, they said to have set their Honor phones to target at the US. But now you are the first not to buy them. That's sad. Btw, of what I understood it is going to be a bit useless to cut out Huwawei as a hardware provider because each single other party who can provide the hardware requires licenses from Huwawei. It seems we (yea, we too over here in Europe) can't get around them much. All you can do is throw an old woman in jail. But even that is not going to help. No any more. Overpowered. This psychological warfare costs trillions a day at this moment. And if I were Trump I'd put out a bad tweet on day one after his conglomerate going short on the stocks involved (e.g. blue chips), and next day go long on them prior to a happy tweet. And at this moment I suspect him of doing that for real. There's a pattern visible by now. Now how do I get friends with dear Donald ... Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Paul R Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 1 hour ago, PeterSt said: The Chinese really copy everything, do they ? Not from the US, at least not yet. The do seem extraordinarily gifted at taking the best parts of whatever they really like though. Quote Yeah, they said to have set their Honor phones to target at the US. But now you are the first not to buy them. That's sad. Btw, of what I understood it is going to be a bit useless to cut out Huwawei as a hardware provider because each single other party who can provide the hardware requires licenses from Huwawei. It seems we (yea, we too over here in Europe) can't get around them much. All you can do is throw an old woman in jail. But even that is not going to help. No any more. Overpowered. Well, I do have to admit I was very annoyed to find out my DJI drone was sending stuff back to a China via the internet. If they infringe on one of my photos, I will do my best to start an international incident. 🤪👹 Quote This psychological warfare costs trillions a day at this moment. And if I were Trump I'd put out a bad tweet on day one after his conglomerate going short on the stocks involved (e.g. blue chips), and next day go long on them prior to a happy tweet. And at this moment I suspect him of doing that for real. There's a pattern visible by now. Now how do I get friends with dear Donald ... No argument from me. Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
Shadders Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Hi, To add to this - there is a current issue in regards to British Steel (was hived off from Tata) in that it has now gone into receivership today. Why did this occur - please see : https://news.sky.com/story/the-surprising-facts-behind-the-declining-steel-industry-11725482 The last paragraph states "And yet it is still struggling, amid competition from China, environmental costs and the difficulties of competing against foreign counterparts who get constant support from their governments" So in the UK we have to meet carbon targets, and China doesn't care about those. They are constantly getting help from their governments, where under European Law we cannot help. One aspect is, the Chinese government are wilfully and purposefully driving down the costs of steel to ensure that no other country can compete. The Chinese government are actively and intentionally, harming the other businesses in the world. So, what else can you do, if your ethos and strategy is to create a fair and open trading culture, bound by laws, and another country is determined to undermine you, at the very least ? Whether you like Trump or not, at least he is taking action against aggressive foreign power. Regards, Shadders. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, Shadders said: Whether you like Trump or not, at least he is taking action against aggressive foreign power. As a chicken without a head, as we say over here. I agree with what you say, but that doesn't mean that 90% (just naming a number) of other goods are a necessity to obtain from China because they don't exist elsewhere. Not in this world anno 2019. I have an other one for you from a couple of years ago - you may recall it: Chinese workers came to Europe (I forgot the country(s)) which were actually prisoners and thus could work for 100% free. By this means work was obtained which obviously was infinitely more expensive when it would have been executed by locals. Smart eh ? A meanest thing to do but smart. Trumpeteers will lose from such means. Btw, China can use some pigs in due time. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Chinese-prisoners-used-as-labourers-in-developing-countries-19180.html I guess I referred to this. A bit of context could be that in the US this may not be 100% strange because in the US (ankle chained) prisoners do government work like cleaning roads or working in the woods etc. In Europe we don't know about this phenomenon that I know of. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Shadders Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Hi, I was not aware of the Chinese allowing their people to be used in such a manner. I am surprised that Europe allowed this - as the EuCHR would not allow for this. In the UK, people do have to complete community service if they commit crimes, else it is gaol. As you can see, it is the Chinese regime that is the problem, not the people. What is annoying, is that within the EU, the UK abides by all the rules, yet some states ignore them, and the EU does nothing. We in the UK abide by the rules to the detriment of UK industry, but other countries flout the laws and ensure that their own industries take preference. This is one of the reasons that Brexit was voted for. Regards, Shadders. Link to comment
lucretius Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 On 5/21/2019 at 2:45 AM, MetalNuts said: The trade war is mostly not for the welfare/benefit of the ordinary US citizen who will somehow suffer from the increased price of the imported products. The trade war has one very important goal which is to suppress other country or countries to become economic strong enough that the politicians consider a threat and what else could be better than justifying it as national security which affords almost unquestionable power to the authorities. I don't see how another country becoming an economic threat/power is a bad thing, unless the US develops a dependency on one trading partner (or cartel of partners colluding against the US). Trade benefits both sides. Restricting trade for national security or human rights reasons is another thing. mQa is dead! Link to comment
lucretius Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 17 hours ago, DuckToller said: Ralf, Which is your perspective on how France is running things??? 2 bottles of Huet and everything is looking ok from your veranda? I'd say, for an example, Switzerland or Netherlands are running (most) things ok, their economic/social/political coordinates are much less problematically than the same facts for France. La France has as well a presidential system, where parliament and goverment have effectivly only a small impact on decision making, which in turn feeds the need of other forces (like SNCF/Gilets Jaunes/Students/Farmers) to make their interest being heard/manifested in their particular ways. There is no effective social balancing by the state in F.. How should that France find an equilibrium for the world ? Cheers, Tom LOL! It would seem that there is an election for which country should be in charge of a planet. mQa is dead! Link to comment
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