Increased Shipping Rates from China

[bluesman]

2 minutes ago, bluesman said:

 

Nuts - I hit "quote" instead of "edit"!  This is what happens when I try to keep up with the kids at a hackathon too........

[bluesman]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:03 PM, Shadders said:

Does increasing the import duty on non-USA goods mean that they become more expensive, allowing USA companies to compete ?

 

Isn't this a good thing ?

 

Sometimes yes, but more often no.  The cost of non-USA parts, materials, machinery etc also goes up, which increases what US manufacturers who use them all in production have to charge for their "made in USA" products.  There are few products today made solely from parts produced in the home country of the "manufacturer", who has become a general manufacturing contractor using parts and assembly subcontractors wherever they're cheapest.

[Ralf11]

Does the stealth DRM insertion by MQA constitute hacking?

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

@bluesmanI'd consider that more of a SCRUM dev tactic than "hacking".   Small teams dedicated to a dev goal in rapid time.

 

The term hacking has gotten hijacked to mean other things now.  There are sites dedicated to "life hacks" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.  People don't 'hack' their phone by installing some app that roots or jailbreaks it.  They installed an app and well that's about it.

 

To me, hacking means you are breaking something to gain access.  Either for good or evil.

[bluesman]

15 minutes ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

@bluesmanI'd consider that more of a SCRUM dev tactic than "hacking".   Small teams dedicated to a dev goal in rapid time.

 

The term hacking has gotten hijacked to mean other things now.  There are sites dedicated to "life hacks" whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.  People don't 'hack' their phone by installing some app that roots or jailbreaks it.  They installed an app and well that's about it.

 

To me, hacking means you are breaking something to gain access.  Either for good or evil.

 

You're certainly within your rights to consider it whatever you wish, but you're bucking a worldwide community of innovators.  Here's a list of 2019 North American hackathons with some info you might find eye-opening.  And here's a classic example of a high level hackathon that's a truly fine event here in Philadelphia, with great output that benefits us all.  

 

You're also bucking the wacky world of linguistics.  Language has to evolve in order to remain useful, and your examples clearly illustrate this even though you seem to be denying the value of such evolution.  Rooting used to mean cheering for your team, and jailbreaking was....um..... breaking out of jail.  Similarly, lean just used to mean skinny - but now it also means use of Toyota's patented Lean process improvement programs.  Six Sigma meant 6 standard deviations from the mean, but now it's a process design and improvement process at the core of a huge industry.  The SCRUM to which I assume you refer is yet another patented process / approach to problem solving, around which there is a growing for-profit industry of teaching and certification entities.  Remember when it was just a rugby term?  

 

And, of course, hijacking used to be the criminal offense of stealing a vehicle by force 🙂

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

I don't see how i'm bucking anything honestly, not dismissing what anyone does.  I'm just dismissive of what they call it.  Working collaboratively isn't hacking.  It used to be called 'teamwork'.  Last time i checked the meaning of teamwork didn't change.  I can call changing the oil in my car 'fred' but what's the point?

 

Calling collaborative work 'hacking' dismisses the actual skill work involved in true white/black hat hacking.  Seriously, it just craps right on them and everything they've dedicated their lives to learning.  True hacking is an actual thing, not just linguistics.  And it takes real skill and talent.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Yes, SCRUM is a certified method of software development within companies.  It is also literally, verbatim, how 'hackathons' are run apparently.  Same exact concept, why rebrand?

[Richard Dale]

2 hours ago, bluesman said:

 

I totally agree with your concept and approach - but using the term "hacking" may mislead those who don't understand the difference between creative hacking and malicious hacking.  Hacking used to mean bad computer behavior like breaking into & stealing from databases and systems or planting malware. But hacking today is also a term for rapid-fire sessions ("hackathons") for creation of apps and other problem-oriented coding projects.  It's important to know which is which to avoid condemning beneficial hackers.

 

I just don't want anyone to misunderstand the good that comes from positive hacking and hackathons.  We run one or two every year at the academic medical center in which I teach & do research.  Teams are given a problem and 2 or 3 days to come up with a workable solution, e.g. improve patient access to their medical records or use demographics for efficient pre-ordering of some components of inpatient care.  Many of our students work around the clock in a truly impressive display of youthful exuberance - the rest of us have to sleep a bit and eat more than Pringles 😁 The prizes, contributed by some of the largest businesses in the region, are both monetary support and career-building opportunities.

You’ve got the time line for the origination of the two meanings of ‘hacking’ the wrong way round. The term was first used in the MIT Model Railway Club in the early sixties, and that is the same meaning for describing the activities at ‘Hackerthon’ events. Describing breaking into computer systems as ‘hacking’ is a more recent usage.

[Paul R]

On 5/8/2019 at 12:16 PM, jtwrace said:

You can't please everyone it's nearly impossible.  However, as a small business in the USA you can certainly do your part and that starts by sourcing parts in the USA and not pointing fingers at the White House.  While I don't like Schitt sonically, one has to admire their model and its success.  They have proven that it can be done on US soil and I've said it for years that it can.  

 

I was under the impression that Schitt was designed and may be assembled in the US, but sourced from the cheapest supplier. 

 

Like it or not, China is taking over as the #1 superpower in the world, already there in terms of manufacturing. They are no slouch in design either, coming up with innovation after innovation after innovation. And don't forget, they are doing more original research than we are. 

 

If you are a small business in the U.S., and say, want to sell Ultrasonic record cleaners, you can source from the U.S. or Europe. But you will just be buying repackaged Chinese ware at 3X-5X what you could source it from directly.

 

Look at the folks here who take $280 sourced Ultrasonic Record Cleaners, and re-sell them here for $875+.  Or look at Chi-Fi Amplifiers, which are multiplying like rabbits. Most of them sound pretty darn good too. You *can* pay $3000 for Primaluna, or you can pay $799 for Chi-Fi gear that sounds either almost as good or in some cases, just as good. Maybe even better. Same components. Even hand assembled, with good attention to detail. 

 

I see no reason to make this kind of stuff, as well as 80% of what is in every Walmart, more expensive for people like me. But then, I don't see any reason why income tax had to go up so dramatically this year either, while corporations and their CEOs enjoyed record tax windfalls. 

 

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Who cares if they take over manufacturing.  Let them ruin their environment like we did for decades, go for it.

 

What matters is they cheated to win.  Nortel going down fast and Huawei enjoying explosive growth at the same time was no coincidence.  One of many reasons Huawei needs to be shut out of the global 5G game, IMO.

 

China also needs to crack down on counterfeit goods.  Amazon is enjoying the profits too much though so it probably will never happen.

 

Our own military is concerned about counterfeit overseas components polluting the supply chain.  The forgers have real skill.  Only way to know the part is fake is to run it through mil-spec qualification and it will fail. But it will pass commercial grade qualification and look visually like a real mil-spec part, with fake testing stamps and everything.

[bluesman]

16 hours ago, Richard Dale said:

You’ve got the time line for the origination of the two meanings of ‘hacking’ the wrong way round. The term was first used in the MIT Model Railway Club in the early sixties, and that is the same meaning for describing the activities at ‘Hackerthon’ events. Describing breaking into computer systems as ‘hacking’ is a more recent usage.

The term was used by the MIT club in the context of their model train signals, not computer code. It then caught on with their AI lab, who later (~1970, as I recall) decided to write their own OS for the DEC computers they used rather than use the one written for the PDP 10. What the collective actually did was to create the internet, although neither they nor the rest of the world knew where their efforts would lead.

 

I was there. I went to Brandeis, where we only had a puny IBM 1620 for student use. But we were allowed to go over the Charles to MIT to use their brand new system 30, and that scene was truly thrilling in the mid-60s.

 

I’m not sure how hacking morphed from good to bad, but it’s now back to good again.

[firedog]

On 5/8/2019 at 4:51 PM, jtwrace said:

Maybe you'll change your tune if/when your products are totally copied and sold for 1/4 of the price.  And don't think they can't be, if you only knew what they do copy you'd probably shit yourself.  

The stealing IP issue has little to do with the tariffs issue. Remains to be seen if Trump will negotiate real benefits to the US in that area. He almost never mentions it as an issue. 

[firedog]

16 hours ago, Paul R said:

Look at the folks here who take $280 sourced Ultrasonic Record Cleaners, and re-sell them here for $875+.  Or look at Chi-Fi Amplifiers, which are multiplying like rabbits. Most of them sound pretty darn good too. You *can* pay $3000 for Primaluna, or you can pay $799 for Chi-Fi gear that sounds either almost as good or in some cases, just as good. Maybe even better. Same components. Even hand assembled, with good attention to detail. 

Many times not. You can have "the same" component at different quality levels. One is reliable, meets or exceeds spec,  and long lasting, the other isn't. Look the same, have the same number printed on the outside. Some Chinese items are inexpensive b/c they are using the crap versions, which on paper are '"the same" as more expensive items. 

[Richard Dale]

7 minutes ago, firedog said:

Many times not. You can have "the same" component at different quality levels. One is reliable, meets or exceeds spec,  and long lasting, the other isn't. Look the same, have the same number printed on the outside. Some Chinese items are inexpensive b/c they are using the crap versions, which on paper are '"the same" as more expensive items. 

Primaluna are made in China, but built to a higher standard than most 'Chi Fi' amplifiers. China is a large country and there is no reason why manufacturing standards should be the same throughout the country.

[Paul R]

41 minutes ago, firedog said:

Many times not. You can have "the same" component at different quality levels. One is reliable, meets or exceeds spec,  and long lasting, the other isn't. Look the same, have the same number printed on the outside. Some Chinese items are inexpensive b/c they are using the crap versions, which on paper are '"the same" as more expensive items. 

 

I wish I could find a study on it. Most of the big expensive brands appear to be made in China, or at least sourced from Chinese parts these days. 

 

While there is certainly Chinese crap out there, there is a lot of good stuff too.   There is also an enormous markup for that good stuff when it appears here as name brand audiophile parts. That supports the industry, yes, but if one is more interested in the sound than in the audiophile “cred” - I just don’t know.

 

It is kind of like the pro-gear vs Audiophile gear thing. Pro gear sounds just as good as audiophile gear, or better.  Obviously - since the recordings were made with pro gear. But we kind of ignore that. 

 

 

 

 

 

[bluesman]

5 hours ago, Richard Dale said:

Primaluna are made in China, but built to a higher standard than most 'Chi Fi' amplifiers. China is a large country and there is no reason why manufacturing standards should be the same throughout the country.

 

Absolutely! My Prima Luna amp is soooo fine, and hand carved Eastman guitars are wonderful at about 1/3 the cost of equivalent American models.  OTOH, I've heard from some Eastman dealers that their QC isn't what it used to be and an increasing number are returned by dealers because they're unacceptable.

[Ralf11]

Japan solved the problem of low manf. stds. with JIS

 

China should do the same to remove the bad rap they are getting...

[Richard Dale]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Japan solved the problem of low manf. stds. with JIS

 

China should do the same to remove the bad rap they are getting...

What effect has JIS had on the Japanese HiFi industry?

[cjf]

On 5/8/2019 at 1:50 PM, Richard Dale said:

Is it a problem? What does the term 'intellectual property' actually mean? Can you provide examples what 'serious problems' have been caused by China 'stealing' intellectual property'?

Wow..please do yourself a favor and come out from under that rock and open your eyes!

 

Only an enemy of the state would fail to see the many problems that can arise from stolen time, money and trade secrets.

 

Perhaps you've never heard of Cisco and Huawei, or Huawei & T-Mobile or Apple or Oreo Cookies or......? Maybe you need a more serious example such as the one posted by someone else earlier in this thread dealing with fighter jets, missiles, nukes, battleships or "fill in the blank here".

 

You say your a software guy...I'm sure you wouldn't mind then if you spent years of your personal time creating a program or something in hopes of it being your bread/butter to feed your family to then all of a sudden find out that it was stolen off your computer and patented by the enemy before you even had a chance.

 

Yup..move on..nothing here to see..No problem 🤕

[Paul R]

13 minutes ago, cjf said:

Wow..please do yourself a favor and come out from under that rock and open your eyes!

 

Only an enemy of the state would fail to see the many problems that can arise from stolen time, money and trade secrets.

 

Perhaps you've never heard of Cisco and Huawei, or Huawei & T-Mobile or Apple or Oreo Cookies or......? Maybe you need a more serious example such as the one posted by someone else earlier in this thread dealing with fighter jets, missiles, nukes, battleships or "fill in the blank here".

 

You say your a software guy...I'm sure you wouldn't mind then if you spent years of your personal time creating a program or something in hopes of it being your bread/butter to feed your family to then all of a sudden find out that it was stolen off your computer and patented by the enemy before you even had a chance.

 

Yup..move on..nothing here to see..No problem 🤕

 

And... you really believe these ridiculous tariffs are going to combat the problem of IP theft? 

[Richard Dale]

45 minutes ago, cjf said:

Wow..please do yourself a favor and come out from under that rock and open your eyes!

 

Only an enemy of the state would fail to see the many problems that can arise from stolen time, money and trade secrets.

 

Perhaps you've never heard of Cisco and Huawei, or Huawei & T-Mobile or Apple or Oreo Cookies or......? Maybe you need a more serious example such as the one posted by someone else earlier in this thread dealing with fighter jets, missiles, nukes, battleships or "fill in the blank here".

 

You say your a software guy...I'm sure you wouldn't mind then if you spent years of your personal time creating a program or something in hopes of it being your bread/butter to feed your family to then all of a sudden find out that it was stolen off your computer and patented by the enemy before you even had a chance.

 

Yup..move on..nothing here to see..No problem 🤕

My point is that you need to be more specific about what exactly you mean by 'Intellectual Propery Theft'. It could be about copyrights, patents, trademarks, trade secrets amongst other things. It may be possible to negotiate to attempt to harmonize some of those things legal frameworks individually. For instance you might want to persuade China that it was a really good idea to have excessively long copyright terms for music and books like the USA does.

 

However, the examples you are giving are about industrial espionage and you can't really expect to have negotiations with a country and have them end up signing a treaty to 'do less industrial espionage'. The only way to counter that is to improve you law enforcement, deport suspected spies and so on. Imposing tariffs to get China to 'do less espionage' doesn't make any sense.

 

Hence, my suspicion that in this instance it is really about US protectionism under the guise of countering 'Intellectual Property Theft' to justify keeping Huwei out of the US 5G mobile phone infrastructure market for instance.

[Ralf11]

On 5/10/2019 at 4:13 PM, Richard Dale said:

What effect has JIS had on the Japanese HiFi industry?

 

duh

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, cjf said:

Wow..please do yourself a favor and come out from under that rock and open your eyes!

 

Only an enemy of the state would fail to see the many problems that can arise from stolen time, money and trade secrets.

 

Perhaps you've never heard of Cisco and Huawei, or Huawei & T-Mobile or Apple or Oreo Cookies or......? Maybe you need a more serious example such as the one posted by someone else earlier in this thread dealing with fighter jets, missiles, nukes, battleships or "fill in the blank here".

 

You say your a software guy...I'm sure you wouldn't mind then if you spent years of your personal time creating a program or something in hopes of it being your bread/butter to feed your family to then all of a sudden find out that it was stolen off your computer and patented by the enemy before you even had a chance.

 

Yup..move on..nothing here to see..No problem 🤕

 

The real problem with Huawei goes far beyond "industrial espionage" to real espionage -- the Chinese Govt. gets or can get all data flowing thru any Huawei device.  And we are talking WAN here, not just phones.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

6 hours ago, Richard Dale said:

However, the examples you are giving are about industrial espionage and you can't really expect to have negotiations with a country and have them end up signing a treaty to 'do less industrial espionage'. The only way to counter that is to improve you law enforcement, deport suspected spies and so on. Imposing tariffs to get China to 'do less espionage' doesn't make any sense.

 

Industrial espionage is not what is occurring here.  That is when two companies are involved in an act of theft.

 

China is a different case.  Their government was the one breaking into companies, like my former employer Nortel.  Then the IP gets handed off to a company, usually headed by a former army officer.

 

State sponsored corporate theft is where the line needs to be drawn.  It's being done to grow their economy at an astronomical rate,  and at everyone else's expense.

 

Another problem is having to open up your technology to the govt just to do business there.  Chinese govt used to demand design documentation and code to get into the market, sure they still do.  Then gets handed off to a retired officer to go make money with.

 

Efficacy of tariffs here is debatable, personally I don't think it will do much except screw consumers.  But China is cheating at our expense, and at some point we have to do something substantial about it.

[Richard Dale]

9 hours ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

 

Industrial espionage is not what is occurring here.  That is when two companies are involved in an act of theft.

 

China is a different case.  Their government was the one breaking into companies, like my former employer Nortel.  Then the IP gets handed off to a company, usually headed by a former army officer.

 

State sponsored corporate theft is where the line needs to be drawn.  It's being done to grow their economy at an astronomical rate,  and at everyone else's expense.

 

Another problem is having to open up your technology to the govt just to do business there.  Chinese govt used to demand design documentation and code to get into the market, sure they still do.  Then gets handed off to a retired officer to go make money with.

 

Efficacy of tariffs here is debatable, personally I don't think it will do much except screw consumers.  But China is cheating at our expense, and at some point we have to do something substantial about it.

I agree with the above points. I was only trying to say the talking about 'Intellectual Property Theft' doesn't make much sense without specifying the specific type of problems in more detail, as you have done.