Popular Post Audiophile Neuroscience Posted March 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Racerxnet said: I am surprised Chris allows him to thread crap all over the site. We all know his take on sound reproduction. Only @The Computer Audiophile can answer this. On the whole Frank remains civil even if one dislikes the doctrinaire tone and absurd claims as judged by both objectivists and subjectivists alike.Perhaps Frank should get some sort of prize for alienating both sides of the divide. There is the ignore button.I just don't read his posts except when they appear in others quotes. What annoys me most is the straw man arguments in his replies like "Though, we all know Ferraris, say, are only worthwhile as a vehicle because they cost so much". Sometimes the assertion apples directly to who he is quoting and if seen is difficukt to ignore the mis-characterization lest others assume you imlicitly agree. Teresa and Confused 1 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted March 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2020 22 minutes ago, Racerxnet said: I am surprised Chris allows him to thread crap all over the site. We all know his take on sound reproduction. 1 minute ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: Only @The Computer Audiophile can answer this. On the whole Frank remains civil even if one dislikes the doctrinaire tone and absurd claims as judged by both objectivists and subjectivists alike.Perhaps Frank should get some sort of prize for alienating both sides of the divide. There is the ignore button.I just don't read his posts except when they appear in others quotes. What annoys me most is the straw man arguments in his replies like "Though, we all know Ferraris, say, are only worthwhile as a vehicle because they cost so much". Sometimes the assertion apples directly to who he is quoting and if seen is difficukt to ignore the mis-characterization lest others assume you imlicitly agree. To a certain degree we all have to do our best to get along. If you don't like reading @fas42's posts please put him on your ignore list. Perhaps also, @fas42 can take a look at what others are saying about his posts and determine if all his posts are necessary or if he can tone it down in an effort to improve the community. Confused and Teresa 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post kumakuma Posted March 5, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 5, 2020 2 hours ago, fas42 said: What I'm annoyed about is that the $100K systems sound like $10,000, $1,000, even $100 ... depending what recording is put on - a system that's working right doesn't do this Actually an accurate system does do this... I'm sure you remember GIGO from your time in the computer industry. Audiophile Neuroscience, The Computer Audiophile and Teresa 3 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 10 hours ago, Confused said: I am still unclear as to what you mean by this. Can you describe or explain what type of anomalies you are referring to specifically, in particular the more common types of distortion that disturb you? OK, let's get this thread back on track, 😉. Audio rigs, irrespective of cost, can commit a wide variety of sins - and I look for signs of any of these, in the rigs I come across. Of value, I will refer to specific instances I came across in the last audio show, without naming brands, 🙂. * The bass player is 100 feet tall, the other musicians are 1 foot tall effect: One of the most expensive rigs at that show suffered from this, the bass line was booming around the room, to satisfy some people's desire for this. * The sound disappears when it gets too low in volume: Digital is quite notorious for this, the music vanishes when the particular sound element drops below a certain level; if you bring a CD that you know well this sounds quite bizarre, whole chunks of the mix simply cease to be there; it's a glass 2/3rds full experience * Edginess: Everyone knows this one - a track will set your teeth on edge, and you're busting to have it finish - a typical response might be, "Well, it's a bad mastering" ... umm, no; it's faulty playback. A room of a famous English brand was almost putrid with this quality; how the people could stand listening to it, I don't know * The midget syndrome: the quality seems reasonable, but it's so tiny ... one room had a piano recording playing; I could have picked up the instrument and put in a suitcase; quite a few rooms might as well have had a transistor radio on, for the level of subjective impact it had * The PA pummelling trick: "I've got balls, and I'm gonna show it ..." - the sound is aggressive, in your face, takes no prisoners - fit for a bar, where everyone is talking at full volume * Horn systems which sound, well, horny: Famous brand, with high priced domestic units, which displayed all the traits once the volume was pushed a bit * General congestion: Any sort of complicated mix, with some driving rhythm - the SQ just falls to bits; a midfi unit could do just as good a job. Pretty generic problem at the show; the standout setups dealt beautifully with tracks like this Link to comment
Popular Post Audiophile Neuroscience Posted March 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 6, 2020 21 minutes ago, kumakuma said: Actually an accurate system does do this... I'm sure you remember GIGO from your time in the computer industry. I totally agree that if the playback makes everything sound pleasant it is adding coloration, sonic sunglasses. That said, IMO, a great system can bring out the best in a recording to the extent that old favorites can be "rediscovered' but agreed, it will be warts and all. STC, Teresa, Confused and 1 other 2 2 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, fas42 said: What I'm annoyed about is that the $100K systems sound like $10,000, $1,000, even $100 Since you don’t have such a system, I highly recommend not wasting your emotional capital on this. You can safely ignore such systems. Teresa 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 34 minutes ago, kumakuma said: Actually an accurate system does do this... I'm sure you remember GIGO from your time in the computer industry. I'm afraid you're wrong... 🤨. What a well sorted $100,000 system does is bring out the music captured at the time, without distracting you with inadequacies of the recording technique; what a poor $100,000 system does is present an assortment of the flaws I mentioned in my previous post. Audiophile Neuroscience, kumakuma, Teresa and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post STC Posted March 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: Oh,haha. I thought you meant the thread was solved,specifically there is no "magic" in Frank's "rig", just his head. I was agreeing. Frank's nonsense is driven by confirmation bias. We all know that if we listened to Franks system,as described, it would likely sound terrible. Frank would of course think otherwise to which I say all power to him. What I dislike is that Frank needs attention and therefore spams every thread with his magic beliefs. I think we should know by now that whatever magic sound he was referring to l, that happened 35 years ago, happened with a proper hifi system. He is still chasing for that sound with Philips, Sharp and laptops which will not materialize but he somehow believed that it did on several occasions. Sometimes, I also ask myself whether my tiny phone could produce the same sensation as my main system if I ignore the volume. It is funny that I can actually equate the same sound with the main system. It is just the state of the mind. But to believe that it is actually the same as the main system is just delusional. Teresa and Audiophile Neuroscience 2 ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 12 minutes ago, fas42 said: I'm afraid you're wrong... 🤨. What a well sorted $100,000 system does is bring out the music captured at the time, without distracting you with inadequacies of the recording technique; what a poor $100,000 system does is present an assortment of the flaws I mentioned in my previous post. Huh? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 1 minute ago, STC said: I think we should know by now that whatever magic sound he was referring to l, that happened 35 years ago, happened with a proper hifi system. He is still chasing for that sound with Philips, Sharp and laptops which will not materialize but he somehow believed that it did on several occasions. Sometimes, I also ask myself whether my tiny phone could produce the same sensation as my main system if I ignore the volume. It is funny that I can actually equate the same sound with the main system. It is just the state of the mind. But to believe that it is actually the same as the main system is just delusional. ST, you work so hard at confusing yourself - it's fascinating to watch, 😉. One important aspect of the SQ goal is that the speakers become impossible to detect; this is when the fully immersive presentation occurs, and the acoustics of what's on the recording completely dominate - this has happened on the original system, on variations since, including the DIY amp, on the Philips HT rig - only on the NAD and Sharp combo has it not hit this particular high point. But on the latter it hasn't really mattered, because it can still throw a very deep and detailed soundstage, with tonality in a very good space - Led Zep I, say, comes over beautifully, with tremendous clarity of the spatial effects. Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Huh? My POV is that the $100k rig needs sorting just as much my budget combinations - if everything is equally dealt with, then of course the higher quality of the more expensive gear will easily be heard to be superior to the cheap stuff. But if the exercise of resolving issues is not carried out, then the lower priced rig will win, in terms of making recordings satisfying to listen to. Link to comment
STC Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 2 hours ago, sandyk said: Well recorded Stereo can sound very good indeed. However if recorded in say Dolby Surround, then down converted to Stereo, a good system can extract quite a good Surround sensation from just 2 stereo speakers, including with movies such as Avatar and many others, as well as quite a few Video performances such as The Eagles- Hell Freezes Over, and some from Queen such as The Game . I disagree. Dolby surround is stereo plus surround. The stereo sound is always there whether it is 2.0, 2.1,5.1,7.1, 9.2, ATMOS, AURA3D, WFS and etc etc. You need stereo to produce the frontal stage as close as the original event. Stereo is the simplest way. When you refer to downsampled version of DTS or Dolby, how do you know it is the downsampled version? Dolby surround is object based. Stereo recording is channel based. Most of my collection that I like were from original motion picture sound. The audio CDs will be in stereo. However, the videos or movies will have the songs in surround. how the downsampled the original version for stereo is depends on the mastering engineer. Can they sound more 3 Dimensional because they were downsampled? If so why as the front stereo is now supposedly produce the sound meant to come from the direction of the surround speakers. How do you think these can make the 3D sound? Are you referring to object or channel based audio? ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 45 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: That said, IMO, a great system can bring out the best in a recording to the extent that old favorites can be "rediscovered' but agreed, it will be warts and all. Yes, that's the basic process ... the difference, for me, is that I have determined, over many years of working with this, that the "warts and all" can be made to be less and less subjectively distracting - the mind can be coaxed into "tuning into" the 'space' of the recording, and accepting and compensating for the recording issues. Here I can think of a very specific track, which I've mentioned a couple of times - a BBC magazine cover disk, with a historical recording of the first performance of a classical piece ... if the system is not "in the zone", then it sounds like an old fashioned, over the kitchen radio, effort; get the tweaking good enough, and it, yes, 'magically ' transforms into a group of musicians doing their thing - now, if the state of the rig slides backwards what I hear goes back to sounding pretty mediocre; the fact that I know that it can sound better doesn't help one bit to compensate, if the SQ at that moment is not there to support the "illusion". Link to comment
STC Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, fas42 said: ST, you work so hard at confusing yourself - it's fascinating to watch, 😉. Not as confused or delusional as you are Who is trying to convince the world that the laptop speakers can sound as good as the B&W. 18 minutes ago, fas42 said: One important aspect of the SQ goal is that the speakers become impossible to detect; You made this statement so please explain why that is so start with:- Speakers wired out of phase, can make the speakers disappear. Can I now say the SQ goal has been achieved? 18 minutes ago, fas42 said: this is when the fully immersive presentation occurs, and the acoustics of what's on the recording completely dominate - this has happened on the original system, on variations since, including the DIY amp, on the Philips HT rig - only on the NAD and Sharp combo has it not hit this particular high point. But on the latter it hasn't really mattered, because it can still throw a very deep and detailed soundstage, with tonality in a very good space - Led Zep I, say, comes over beautifully, with tremendous clarity of the spatial effects. This is irrelevant if can’t explain the earlier. Anyway, I take it here the best sound sound you had was from the proper hifi system. That is the final word about your 35 years journey. Teresa 1 ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 3 hours ago, STC said: Now you are are talking like a typical audiophile. It is a normal behavior to find that your system not to sound optimum and lacking once your initial euphoria of getting a new toy is gone. Dr Henry Augus Bowes identified this as audio neurosis in 1957. It is your brain reminding you that the stereo sound is not natural. Silly boy ... what the original system had, and I have described this numerous times, is the exceedingly annoying characteristic that the peak SQ would only sustain for about a quarter of an hour, even less. The quality of the presentation would slowly sag, until it reverted to normal stereo, while you listened - the solution, every time, was to switch everything off, let the power supplies, etc, drain and reset - switch on again, and full SQ was restored. I could do this as an endless repeating sequence, all day long if I wanted ... Frustrating? ... you betcha!!! At that time I had very little understanding of what could be going on - took years to get a better handle on things ... Link to comment
Popular Post sandyk Posted March 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 6, 2020 43 minutes ago, STC said: I disagree. Dolby surround is stereo plus surround. The stereo sound is always there whether it is 2.0, 2.1,5.1,7.1, 9.2, ATMOS, AURA3D, WFS and etc etc. You need stereo to produce the frontal stage as close as the original event. Stereo is the simplest way. ST I am not going to argue this with someone who believes that 40.3 is the way to go . I will never convince you of anything in this area. I also seriously doubt that there are any other members that even have setups remotely close to what you have. From previous discussions you appear to both see and hear things differently to most people, and you have conceded this too,which is fine, but it's not mainstream by any means. Alex The Computer Audiophile and 4est 1 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 35 minutes ago, STC said: You made this statement so please explain why that is so start with:- Speakers wired out of phase, can make the speakers disappear. Can I now say the SQ goal has been achieved? Good thing I'm using the word "frustrating" at the moment ... 🤣. Okay. (takes deep breath ...) Here's an exercise: go and read the set of posts here, that I've pointed to a number of times already, on AS ... 10 times, before you go to bed ... promise? https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/177403-linkwitz-orions-beaten-behringer-153.html Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 Stop the sophomoric posts people. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
STC Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Stop the sophomoric posts people. So my posts were sophomoric? one delusional guy took us a ride for over thousands of post when all along he was describing the sound of an average high fidelity equipment and another one with damaged hearing siting with headphones lecturing me about downsampled Dolby. and my posts got deleted. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 21 minutes ago, STC said: So my posts were sophomoric? one delusional guy took us a ride for over thousands of post when all along he was describing the sound of an average high fidelity equipment and another one with damaged hearing siting with headphones lecturing me about downsampled Dolby. and my posts got deleted. Settle down. This is audio. It’s a hobby. Posts from more people than you were removed. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Racerxnet Posted March 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 6, 2020 On 3/4/2020 at 6:31 PM, Racerxnet said: Franks diatribe has no bounds. Nobody should have to be a martyr for Franks pleasure and insistence. The above spells out where we stand. STC and Teresa 2 Link to comment
STC Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Settle down. This is audio. It’s a hobby. Posts from more people than you were removed. That is the point. This is audio. Not about someone’s mental condition or belief. I have always been open to others opinions irrespective of the equipments or background. Disagreement is normal when things involve subjectivism but that doesn’t take away the hard evidence. For three years, the Premium member Fas42 gave the impression that the magic sound was possible with laptop speakers or the Philips and sharp system. Now it turned out that he was describing to a system that was made of B&W speakers and Perreaux Amplifier. The hobby has developed to hallucination. And another man with damaged hearing who listeners with headphones is describing 3D sound from downsampled Dolby. This is audio and I respond to that. But it was too late that I forgot that his post was liked by the forum owner otherwise I would have refrained from commenting as I believe that never argue with idiots because onlookers may not able to tell the difference. Teresa 1 ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Popular Post Jeff_N Posted March 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 6, 2020 Somebody needs to create a new account, then post something like "I spent $100K on my system. I bought all these expensive shiny little add-on boxes that the manufacturers told me would make my rig sound great, but it still sounds like crap! If only someone could help me, and explain to me how to make my rig sound good. But I guess that will never happen." Then let Frank launch into his "35 years ago, suddenly it just 'clicked,' the mind 'fills in the missing bits,' and the speakers 'disappear,'" speech. Then program a bot to keep replying to his posts "Wait, but how does it work Frank?" "Can you explain in more detail?" "Tell me more" etc. Teresa and Audiophile Neuroscience 2 Link to comment
fas42 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 11 minutes ago, STC said: For three years, the Premium member Fas42 gave the impression that the magic sound was possible with laptop speakers or the Philips and sharp system. Now it turned out that he was describing to a system that was made of B&W speakers and Perreaux Amplifier. The hobby has developed to hallucination. The trouble, ST, is that you kept insisting that I was saying that laptop delivered special sound - and I kept on correcting you on this; what my interest was, the optimising, tweaking of all the little settings to get a better standard than the default, went straight past you - I merely was doing a variation on what, say, PeterSt does for a living. Link to comment
Popular Post kumakuma Posted March 6, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted March 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jeff_N said: Somebody needs to create a new account, then post something like "I spent $100K on my system. I bought all these expensive shiny little add-on boxes that the manufacturers told me would make my rig sound great, but it still sounds like crap! If only someone could help me, and explain to me how to make my rig sound good. But I guess that will never happen." Then let Frank launch into his "35 years ago, suddenly it just 'clicked,' the mind 'fills in the missing bits,' and the speakers 'disappear,'" speech. Then program a bot to keep replying to his posts "Wait, but how does it work Frank?" "Can you explain in more detail?" "Tell me more" etc. I disagree. 6665 posts to date essentially repeating the same two points proves that Frank needs no encouragement. Teresa and 4est 1 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
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