crenca Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 I also don't see much "middle" in MQA. Even the streaming case for it is now a non-starter given modern bandwidth, etc. Given that just about ALL claims of MQA have been demonstratively debunked, where is this "middle"? I appreciate the "pros vs. cons" perspective, but the "extreme" language is just the narrative that the trade publications/industry wants to leverage in an attempt to make MQA have some sense at all. Oh well, it would not be Audiophiledom if the truth was explicit... OE333 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 This is Audiophiledom, which is a largely (though this is slowly changing) factual free zone. Another way to think of it is a hobby/culture where factual truth is in short supply, so the audiophile is left judging the man, subjectively. This is mostly done in a kind of "balancing" or weighing exactly as Chris is putting it - putting all "opinions" (remember, there are no real facts, or too few) on a continuum. Since this continuum is not a factual based one but a subjective one, it is quite naturally an emotional one. So on one end you have "hate", and on the other you have "love" - both irrational or "extreme" even in a subjective context. So the middle becomes the only place anyone would want to be. "What do you think consumers should know?" I would say they need to be led away from the status quo subjective, emotional paradigm/continuum and shown the facts of MQA, which are many. Don't worry about the emotion from the consumers OR the old guard trade publication cabal OR the industry itself. You won't reach some or perhaps even most, but you will have done something sorely needed... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 3, 2018 Share Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, lucretius said: False equivalence. The dialectic itself (i.e. the terms) is false. If it were true (and it is the prevailing view from the "old guard", etc.), then the middle is where I and most everybody else who is not full of "hate" or extreme enthusiasm would want to be... daverich4 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 4, 2018 Share Posted October 4, 2018 27 minutes ago, Archimago said: Wow, had to do a double take this AM. Looks like subjective folks including Hans Beekhuyzen is now claiming that "often the linear phase version sounds the best - at least to my ears" (7:47): Hmmm, minimum phase Meridian / MQA / Ayre / Pono filters on the way out? Is he about to jump on the Chord linear phase 1M tap filter bandwagon? As the world turns ?. Hans Beekhuyzen?? As the subjectivist turns, or as the "what am I trying to sell you today" turns ? Ralf11 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 18 hours ago, Archimago said: Although I think @barrows and I would very much have disagreements in many ways ?, I agree with what he's saying. The hope as audiophiles desiring the "best possible" music for our enjoyment is to maintain the availability of lossless high-resolution and that one cannot beat that "studio master". MQA's propaganda to assert themselves as "exact" or "lossless" or "better" is the problem. Especially when they create this impression and expect to be further financially rewarded along the way. I certainly hope folks would not shun good hardware simply because of MQA compatibility, just as they should not avoid MP3 compatibility advertised on a box. I know for a fact that some companies are incorporating MQA compatibility out of that perception of consumer pressure to tick off all the boxes. But the engineers behind the scenes are far from impressed by the "technology" itself. Remember that there are NDAs signed and many who are able to speak about MQA are not at liberty to divulge their opinions. I don't normally disagree with Archimago but I will here. MP3, AAC and the like are not the equivalent in the market for several reasons. Manufacturers of DAC's are unfortunately in a bad position in that they are being leveraged by others in "the industry" into helping position MQA. As a consumer, MQA is so bad for my interests and niche Audiophiledom as a whole, they can not be left off the hook as innocent "victims" of market forces. Don't get me wrong, I really believe they are "innocent", but they are casualties so to speak. Don't blame consumers for rightly eschewing otherwise good products which happen to include the really bad "feature" of MQA. If other parts of "the industry" has leveraged you into signing an NDA and including functionality you know is garbage and bad for the consumer, well then that is on you - own it. If you go out of business because of MQA, or in spite of it, well that is the dog-eat-dog of world of business and consumers have no obligation (moral or practical) to support you either way. Consumers self interests and moral obligation is to a marketplace that supports their interests and needs and MQA is decidedly against that... MikeyFresh 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 8, 2018 Share Posted October 8, 2018 20 minutes ago, Derek Hughes said: Several of you have made comments about me from watching the video, that's OK. What is not OK is the comment about "the guy sleeping" next to me. Edwin is blind. Are you the chap with the British accent, telling Chris that because people "in the room" (i.e. the trade publication writers and MQA principles) told you that MQA is not DRM it must be so? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, FredericV said: MQA time domain for dummies: the non-periodic sound test As the kids say...OMG You could not have scripted this if you tried. Don't take me wrong, but the blind guy is the punctuation mark that only real life can deliver MikeyFresh 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, austinpop said: As a result, I was disappointed by the archaic methods of playback so many were using. I had gone expecting a lot of rooms to be streaming Qobuz, and had made an RMAF playlist I could point them to, but that didn't work except in one room. Many rooms wouldn't take requests, period. Others wanted physical media like CDs and records, surprisingly few could even deal with something like music on a USB stick, and only a handful could grok an iPhone playing out of a Lightning USB adapter. Disappointed but not surprised I hope. Audiophiledom in general has a problem with digital - most of them are so far behind the curve they play it safe by avoiding it altogether. Also, digital is empowering to the consumer in almost every way, so again the impulse is to control it at a show that is not about consumers, but about "the industry" putting on a show for and talking to itself. It's about empowering them, not the customers... wgscott 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, austinpop said: Other than Chris' seminar, and some pathetic MQA Live posters, MQA was a complete non-event at RMAF. Dig a little deeper. Behind the shallow surface, the "show within the show" among the insiders, no doubt MQA was "working it" very hard... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 28 minutes ago, Brinkman Ship said: threads... but in the threads the reps were raked over the coals with one or two Defenders...one was enamored with the “excellent “ Scoggins article. Is Hoffman a place where MQA has some traction normally? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Derek Hughes said: the seminar was about the pros and cons of MQA, that's what Chris tried to present. In MY OPINION, that was not what his presentation was... I can not defend or support MQA technically, I don't have the necessary skills... On the one hand, you have a very strong table-banging opinion, which happens to coincide with those who have $investment$ in MQA On the other hand, you admit you don't have the skills/knowledge to have an opinion one way or another. I guess INTEL does not mean what it used to mean. Don't worry, your a meme worthy representation of so much of what is wrong with Audiophiledom - lots of opinion, no actual knowledge. Also, I saw where your table banging frightened your blind friend. No wonder you are disgusted with yourself... phosphorein and maxijazz 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, look&listen said: What are perception problems of who "very easily missed"? Too much table banging nonsense going on to focus on anything else obviously, at least for most of us. Those who noticed through all the "I have an opinion even though I admit I should not have an opinion at all" table bangin are clearly in the minority and probably have other unusual and/or strange experiences which allow them to look around all the ignorant table bangin...such as yourself for example. What are these experiences of yours? Do you swim with the dolphins, or are you a porn actor perhaps? Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 1 minute ago, Brinkman Ship said: The focus should not be on Derek Hughes..it should be on the two MQA exec, Forsythe and Jbara. They were appalling. Oh I don't know. I can at least understand Forsythe and Jbara or even Scogins - they have their livelihoods invested in this MQA fraud, which at the end of the day is (at least for now) limited to seperating a small amount of cash from gullible "audiophiles". Table bangin opinion, from self admited ignorance, is a microcosm of so much that is wrong with this "hobby"... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Edwin’s blindness is a nonissue. Nobody in his right mind makes fun of a blind person because he is blind. Let’s move on from Edwin. Chris, Here is the outline and direction of your next MQA presentation: buonassi 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 9, 2018 Share Posted October 9, 2018 Ultimately the person responsible for the disrespectful treatment of Chris and the intentional disruption of his presentation is this person: Marjorie Baumert, show director. Is she interested in an allegedly important new digital format like MQA being treated with at least a modicum of investigation it deserves? OR, is she only interested in an industry first, anti-consumer perspective of too much of this industry? At the very least, she owes Chris an apology for the failure of the show to allow Chris to at least present... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 10, 2018 DRM is as DRM does. MQA is not only the "freemium" model of it, it is a good example. Neither audiophile trade publication writers, nor MQA executives, nor Chris get to define what it is... mansr, maxijazz and MrMoM 3 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 10, 2018 4 hours ago, ARQuint said: Thought that you might want to hear from a proud member of the "civility police." I feel that an attack on Marjorie Baumert is very much off base. Marjorie is a truly gracious person who continues to run RMAF, in part to honor her late husband, Al Steifel, who founded the Colorado Audio Society many years ago. Her goal has been to maintain the generous spirit of inclusiveness that Al was known for. Keep in mind that, more than other shows, RMAF isn't an industry event. To be sure, they get professional help to organize and administer the show, and the manufacturers, distributors, and dealers are there to generate business, but ultimately, RMAF is an event for consumers. The guys and gals at the tables when you enter the Marriott, giving you your badges and show guides, are CAS volunteers. The RMAF seminars are generally not ideas of the show's organizers—they are proposed by the presenters. I moderated the first seminar on Sunday morning ("Multichannel Music: Promise and Problems") and I had pitched the idea early in the year to Marjorie and to Ramsay Thurber, who coordinated the sessions for 2018. RMAF gets many more proposals for seminars than there are slots to accommodate them and final decisions aren't made until late summer. RMAF gives no recommendations regarding how a seminar should be run. They assign a time slot and advise that the session will be A/V recorded. I'm an admirer of Chris C and the CA site, but I feel he made a mistake—as someone else in this thread has already suggested—in not laying down ground rules at the outset, that questions and comments should be saved until the end of the presentation. I'm pretty sure that Chris had structured his talk so that there would have been plenty of time for audience participation after he'd finished. This is exactly what I did for the seminar I ran with panelists Kal Rubinson and Brian Moura—and my topic was far less contentious than MQA. Chris instead permitted the microphone to be handed to the MQA representatives seated near the rear of the amphitheater and that's when he got derailed. Chris specifically noted early in this thread, ahead of the event, that "people can chime in if they want." I would have lost my train of thought and momentum too. Chris inadvertently set the stage for what happened. Those guys came loaded for bear and…well, the rest is history. A question worth asking is why the MQA people felt that they could and should be as aggressive as they were. And here, I feel, is where Chris has to take some responsibility as the person who makes the rules at CA. As you've heard from me before, my perception (and the perception of plenty of others) is that, when it comes to MQA, a small number of posters adopt a provocatively shrill and insulting tone that's out of sync with a hobbyist/enthusiast site: As Chris noted in his talk, "Nobody is saving babies in HiFi / Nobody is killing puppies in HiFi." But you wouldn't think that was the case from some of the comments from a few online participants in CA's various MQA threads over the past two years. Were the MQA people "rude" as they defended their product? Maybe. But perhaps not in the context of what the forum for which Chris is the face of has been issuing. Civility-wise, what goes around, comes around. So, yes, the MQA cadre on Sunday afternoon was inflamed—interrupting-the-speaker, pounding-the-table inflamed—but, certainly, there's been a lot of inflammation on the other side as well. Everyone should take a whole lot of deep breaths. Andrew Quint The Absolute Sound 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I wouldn’t put any blame on Marjorie. She relies on adults to behave like adults and we (those of us presenting) understand that she isn’t involved with this aspect of the show. Marjorie Baumert should take responsibility, even if she is not directly responsible as she is the organizer and director and the abuse of Chris took place under her watch. The buck stops with her. If RMAF is really "an event for consumers" as Andrew Quint believes (who is a TAS trade publication writer for those who do not know) then she will admit that a consumer oriented presentation was shouted down by a few MQA executives/employees and industry insiders and this is anti-consumer. As an "Old Guard" insider Mr. Quint, we are all very aware you would like to put the internet genie back into the bottle because of it has proved to be much more helpful to consumers than to the Old Guard such as yourself. Chris is not going to moderate the consumers back into the Old Guard line/narrative because he understands that there is no future in it. Even if he were to do this, consumers would just pop up on another forum (and another and another...). You are not going to whack-a-mole consumers back down so that you can continue reaping the $fruits$ of the audiophile confidence game. I don't blame you for trying, but really, how successful do you imagine you and your cohorts are going to be? Look folks, there is a reason that Mr. Quint is speaking like this and @John_Atkinsongave him an upvote. They don't like being debunked, exposed, not being able to control the narrative. Who can blame them? MQA more than anything else has revealed just how gullible, technically incompetent, and anti-consumer they are - and they don't even understand why! It is exactly as Mr. Quint says, what goes around comes around. What happened at RMAF was payback for Chris not falling into the Old Guard line. You can be assured that it is just the tip of the iceberg in that Chris is receiving much more abuse behind the scenes. What he, ourselves, and most everyone else knows is that Mr. Quint's and @John_Atkinson way of doing things is coming to an end. Sonicularity, pedalhead, askat1988 and 4 others 7 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, sls said: ....Most of the MQA chatter seems to come from the USA, possibly because there is no alternative hi-res streaming service to Tidal. Qobuz will change that and, unlike Tidal, it has a workable business plan... I think sls is right here. Literally, in days, we will have a viable competitor to Tidal and we can put MQA into the trash bin of history where it belongs. The Old Guard insiders (such as Scoggins, @John_Atkinson, etc.) will continue to fight for MQA if for no other reason than their reputation, but that reputation is more and more being seen for what it is with each passing day... wgscott 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 1 minute ago, sls said: Roon users may also be pleasantly surprised at the quality, organisation and information on the Qobuz platform. It's come on a huge amount in recent years and is an absolute joy - I mostly use OSX from a 13" MBP 2018. The Qobuz OSX app has uPnP and I also use Devialet Air. Faultless at 24/192. Very good to hear. I like Roon's convient (and honestly, not that limited) DSP, and I have become rather dependant on its HQPlayer interop. That said, if the Qobuz interface gets me part way to being Roon free then all the better. I have heard rumors (have not been on the Roon forum lately) that Roon is trying to bring Qobuz interop. They probably have to do this if they are going to be viable in the US market. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, sls said: Roon probably needs Qobuz more than the other way around. They are apparently talking. I agree 100%, my last sentence was vague... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said: I gave Andy Quint an upvote because I agree with what he said regarding the nastiness expressed on this forum expressed toward Marjorie Baumert. I see that Chris Connaker has also said the same thing. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile I could have missed it but I have seen no "nastiness" towards her. Yes she should step up in her role of director and give Chris the apology he deserves, and consumers the assurance that industry insiders will not be allowed to shout them down again. I notice that the actual "nastiness" of MQA resentatives and Industry insiders such as yourself is not on your radar, or did I miss your condemnation of Chris's treatment? Ralf11, MikeyFresh, maxijazz and 2 others 4 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said: Why does Marjorie need to give Chris an apology? Yes, she gave him the space and time for his presentation but having watched the video, he failed to control the narrative. People will always try to interrupt, but the presenter has to deal with it. All he needed to say was that there would be plenty of time for a Q&A after his slide show. That's what I did in my presentation Friday afternoon, which included some discussion of MQA - ask RT66indierock, he was there - and things didn't spin out of control like they did in the Chris in the Middle event. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile I agree with you Chris did not control the room and his presentation like he should have. In fact, Chris comes across as a wee bit naive when he says and acts (e.g. how he structured his presentation) like there can be a "dialogue" with industry insiders such as yourself about MQA. Neither MQA employees nor trade publication editors and writers are honest and faithful dialogue partners about MQA and many other things about this industry and hobby. You made your mind up at the very beginning and have stuck to your guns no matter how dishonest, irelevant, and anti-consumer you appear. Marjorie however has a constituency she has to think about, that is the show goers, the consumers that her show is supposedly about and serves. We know that you are insulated to a certain degree from your readers, because your readers are not the customers whom you serve. Perhaps Marjorie is in a similar position and showgoers are kind of necessary inconvenience. Yet even here the question has to be asked why she would privilege MQA industry insiders over Chris, who is in fact an Industry insider...of sorts... I notice that you have once again chosen not to condemn the poor behavior of MQA and other industry insiders who were there. MikeyFresh 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shadders said: Hi, My interpretation is that the manufacturers are informed that DRM is coming to audio for streaming, and that MQA will be the only format streamed, or downloadable in the future - the record labels have signed up to this too. Someone published the MQA investors - which included Sony etc. Whether you like it or not, the record labels are going to implement the same control over audio as per DVD etc. Why should audio be any different ?. Regards, Shadders. I chalk it up to dumb momentum. Streaming providers don't need MQA to implement encryption or any other form of control. The status quo, where they all implement their own schemes is good enough. Why would they want to pay MQA do what they already do more effectively? I suppose it's possible that these manufacturers have inside information that says that the labels are going to require MQA, but I think this is a stretch of a speculation at this point... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted October 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted October 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, John_Atkinson said: I do a lot of public speaking - there are ways of dealing with interruptions (though I'm glad RT66indierock didn't bring his blue laser to my own presentation.) With all due respect, Chris appeared to be out of his depth as the presenter of a seminar. He wasn't able to control what was happening and let things get away from him. The fact that he shut it down at 42 minutes into the planned hour was disappointing. That wasn't Marjorie's fault or even the MQA guys' fault. That is down to Chris. John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile I notice you have yet to condemn your cohorts for their behavior. You will find that on this new fangled thing called the internet, your attempts to control the narrative will be in vain ? Chris's mistake was thinking he could have an honest dialogue with folks such as yourself, MQA, etc. But at least that's a mistake of hopefulness and innocence. I noticed you have yet to condemn those who shouted down a pro consumer viewpoint... pedalhead, rischa, phosphorein and 5 others 5 3 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
crenca Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 10 minutes ago, Lee Scoggins said: Look, at the end of the day, this forum wields little power over MQA. Their customer is the label, producer, and artist. Armchair engineers hiding behind a username is not their customer. If MQA gets established with a major streaming service then there is enough royalty to be very successful financially. One of the many great things about free markets is that anyone can create a new, better codec. If that person can convince the labels and producers that there is value in the new codec then sign them up to master a back catalog and then offer it on a streaming service then people are going to make money. Sony needs money; I suspect that potential return on investment is more real than some DRM fantasy espoused here. Politics or simple sophistry? Neither, its AUDIOPHILEDOM! ? Let them talk however - lies beget lies, and belittling consumers can only help the truth... wgscott 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
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