marce Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Here is your starter for 10, it's one of my go to documents for anyone wanting to learn PCB design http://www.x2y.com/filters/TechDay09kr_hpa_Track2_1_Precision_Analog_Designs_Demand_GoodPCBLayouts _JohnWu.pdf From the references: http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/june2001pcd_mixedsignal.pdf Link to comment
fas42 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 2 hours ago, marce said: Look at the dates, things move on... Why do you always look for something to support the negative view, why not post some real info on how it cna be done, look for some of the positive information. Jeez if I worked like this I would never get a job done, because a lot look impossible when you start, so you don't go it can't be done, you start with reading the active devices data sheets and planning out the critical signal flows, both local to circuitry and accross the board between blocks of circuitry... You don't look for reasons why it cant be done, that's giving in before you start. 2009? The latest book from the author you suggested I read, in the previous post ... I was reacting to your comment that it was "well documented" - when in fact there is much material pointing out the common design errors made, and mistaken ideas clung to. IOW, it's not trivial to ensure an absolutely clean separation between the areas - and the USB link for audio seems to be a prime area for issues to arise, going by the number of, yes, negative comments about the performance of the standard design methods. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 huh! John Wu - does he design the action-packed PCBs in slo-mo?? esldude 1 Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 John Wu Vice President of Facilities Sde Business Partnering Llc John Wu Department System Analyst CSAA Inter-Insurance Bureau John Wu Chief Technology Officer Alibaba.Com Corporation John Wu Senior Vice President of Supply Chain, Merchandising and Global Sourcing Partsearch Technologies Inc John Wu President King Of Fans Inc John Wu Founder and Chief Executive Officer Perfect Lending Solutions John Wu Senior Oracle Database Administrator Michaels Holdings LLC John Wu Senior Systems Analyst-telecom Susan Davis International John Wu Information Technology Director Shihab & Associates, A Legal Professional Association John Wu IT Director The Rubber Manufacturers Association Inc John Wu Chief Office Of Quality Government of The United States John Wu Business Operations Manager Cisco Systems, Inc. John Wu Director of Engineering Cole Hersee Company John Wu K12 Teacher Kent School District John Wu Venture Partner Northern Light Venture Capital John Wu Senior Scientist Johnson & Johnson John Wu Chief Executive Officer Solar Power Industries, Inc. John Wu Environmental Manager Daimler AG John Wu Senior Unix System Administrator County of Santa Clara John Wu Director, Product Planning Boxwood Technologies Inc John Wu Systems Engineer Network Solutions, Inc. John Wu Faculty Richland College Dallas County Community College District John Wu President, Chief Executive Officer Digicon Corporation (US Headquarters) John Wu Loan Officer Direct Source Funding John Wu Isa State of Calif Government John Wu Operations Manager Silverwings Unique Inc John Wu Lead Of Quality Assurance Engineer Expedia, Inc. John Wu Sales Executive Coldwell Banker John Wu Senior Service Fellow United States Department of Health and H John Wu Chief Financial Officer Chapal Inc. John Wu Payments Product Manager TSYS Corporation John Wu Vice President Wu Enterprises Inc John Wu Tpm Amazon.com, Inc. John Wu President VIAWORLD ADVANCED PRODUCTS INC John Wu Senior Technical Support Engineer Attune Systems Inc. John Wu Network Manager The Agency Group John Wu R and D Special Projects Information Systems Moody Bible Institute John Wu Chief Technical Officer Alibaba.com Limited John Wu Chief Executive Officer Digicon Corporation John Wu Owner Ameditech John Wu Manager, Facilities, Environmental and Building Services Mercedes-Benz U.S. International, Inc. John Wu Staff Geophysicist TOTAL SA John Wu Owner Dependable Collision John Wu President Information Dynamics Inc John Wu Research Intern Carnegie Mellon University John Wu Scientist Pfizer Inc John Wu Credit Lending Club Corporation John Wu Product Manager Xerox John Wu Consultant The Boston Consulting Group John Wu Architect Citigroup Inc. John Wu Program Engineering Manager Northrop Grumman Corporation John Wu Vice President of Software Engineering Novatel Wireless, Inc. John Wu Software Architect Intel Corporation John Wu Auto Advertising Coordinator CHENG SHIN RUBBER IND. CO., LTD. John Wu Senior Director of International Tax Salesforce.com, Inc. John Wu Chief Executive Officer Global Strategic Connections John Wu Director And Professor State of California John Wu Associate Jefferies & Company, Inc. John Wu Consultant Citigroup Inc. The man has many faces. And still that is not him. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 But might you have a question about the document : 972 995-3773. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
marce Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 5 hours ago, PeterSt said: John Wu Vice President of Facilities Sde Business Partnering Llc John Wu Department System Analyst CSAA Inter-Insurance Bureau John Wu Chief Technology Officer Alibaba.Com Corporation John Wu Senior Vice President of Supply Chain, Merchandising and Global Sourcing Partsearch Technologies Inc John Wu President King Of Fans Inc John Wu Founder and Chief Executive Officer Perfect Lending Solutions John Wu Senior Oracle Database Administrator Michaels Holdings LLC John Wu Senior Systems Analyst-telecom Susan Davis International John Wu Information Technology Director Shihab & Associates, A Legal Professional Association John Wu IT Director The Rubber Manufacturers Association Inc John Wu Chief Office Of Quality Government of The United States John Wu Business Operations Manager Cisco Systems, Inc. John Wu Director of Engineering Cole Hersee Company John Wu K12 Teacher Kent School District John Wu Venture Partner Northern Light Venture Capital John Wu Senior Scientist Johnson & Johnson John Wu Chief Executive Officer Solar Power Industries, Inc. John Wu Environmental Manager Daimler AG John Wu Senior Unix System Administrator County of Santa Clara John Wu Director, Product Planning Boxwood Technologies Inc John Wu Systems Engineer Network Solutions, Inc. John Wu Faculty Richland College Dallas County Community College District John Wu President, Chief Executive Officer Digicon Corporation (US Headquarters) John Wu Loan Officer Direct Source Funding John Wu Isa State of Calif Government John Wu Operations Manager Silverwings Unique Inc John Wu Lead Of Quality Assurance Engineer Expedia, Inc. John Wu Sales Executive Coldwell Banker John Wu Senior Service Fellow United States Department of Health and H John Wu Chief Financial Officer Chapal Inc. John Wu Payments Product Manager TSYS Corporation John Wu Vice President Wu Enterprises Inc John Wu Tpm Amazon.com, Inc. John Wu President VIAWORLD ADVANCED PRODUCTS INC John Wu Senior Technical Support Engineer Attune Systems Inc. John Wu Network Manager The Agency Group John Wu R and D Special Projects Information Systems Moody Bible Institute John Wu Chief Technical Officer Alibaba.com Limited John Wu Chief Executive Officer Digicon Corporation John Wu Owner Ameditech John Wu Manager, Facilities, Environmental and Building Services Mercedes-Benz U.S. International, Inc. John Wu Staff Geophysicist TOTAL SA John Wu Owner Dependable Collision John Wu President Information Dynamics Inc John Wu Research Intern Carnegie Mellon University John Wu Scientist Pfizer Inc John Wu Credit Lending Club Corporation John Wu Product Manager Xerox John Wu Consultant The Boston Consulting Group John Wu Architect Citigroup Inc. John Wu Program Engineering Manager Northrop Grumman Corporation John Wu Vice President of Software Engineering Novatel Wireless, Inc. John Wu Software Architect Intel Corporation John Wu Auto Advertising Coordinator CHENG SHIN RUBBER IND. CO., LTD. John Wu Senior Director of International Tax Salesforce.com, Inc. John Wu Chief Executive Officer Global Strategic Connections John Wu Director And Professor State of California John Wu Associate Jefferies & Company, Inc. John Wu Consultant Citigroup Inc. The man has many faces. And still that is not him. A quick search would find who he is... The fact its got Ti (Texas Instruments) all over the presentation would possibly give you a hint. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Just now, marce said: A quick search would find who he is... I gave you guys his number ... Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
marce Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 21 hours ago, fas42 said: 2009? The latest book from the author you suggested I read, in the previous post ... I was reacting to your comment that it was "well documented" - when in fact there is much material pointing out the common design errors made, and mistaken ideas clung to. IOW, it's not trivial to ensure an absolutely clean separation between the areas - and the USB link for audio seems to be a prime area for issues to arise, going by the number of, yes, negative comments about the performance of the standard design methods. Disagree, do this every day, just recently done two boards with microwave (analogue), 24 bit DAC's, digital and SMPS's... work perfectly, USB is a doddle by comparison... But then this is audiophile audio so normal rules don't apply... Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Just now, marce said: But then this is audiophile audio so normal rules don't apply... What could be odd without real notice at first glance, is that you'd always have two channels fighting each other (I tend to direct to possible oscillation). Besides that we usually have more than one clock domain - same thing. Question about the latter (no 7500 to be earned) : how would you approach the virtually required two different oscillators for 44.1 vs 48 base ? Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
marce Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 6 minutes ago, PeterSt said: I gave you guys his number ... It's a TI telephone number, why? Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Just now, marce said: It's a TI telephone number, why? It is his number. Did you try it ? OK. Closed now. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Jud Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 10 hours ago, PeterSt said: John Wu Vice President of Facilities Sde Business Partnering Llc John Wu Department System Analyst CSAA Inter-Insurance Bureau John Wu Chief Technology Officer Alibaba.Com Corporation John Wu Senior Vice President of Supply Chain, Merchandising and Global Sourcing Partsearch Technologies Inc John Wu President King Of Fans Inc John Wu Founder and Chief Executive Officer Perfect Lending Solutions John Wu Senior Oracle Database Administrator Michaels Holdings LLC John Wu Senior Systems Analyst-telecom Susan Davis International John Wu Information Technology Director Shihab & Associates, A Legal Professional Association John Wu IT Director The Rubber Manufacturers Association Inc John Wu Chief Office Of Quality Government of The United States John Wu Business Operations Manager Cisco Systems, Inc. John Wu Director of Engineering Cole Hersee Company John Wu K12 Teacher Kent School District John Wu Venture Partner Northern Light Venture Capital John Wu Senior Scientist Johnson & Johnson John Wu Chief Executive Officer Solar Power Industries, Inc. John Wu Environmental Manager Daimler AG John Wu Senior Unix System Administrator County of Santa Clara John Wu Director, Product Planning Boxwood Technologies Inc John Wu Systems Engineer Network Solutions, Inc. John Wu Faculty Richland College Dallas County Community College District John Wu President, Chief Executive Officer Digicon Corporation (US Headquarters) John Wu Loan Officer Direct Source Funding John Wu Isa State of Calif Government John Wu Operations Manager Silverwings Unique Inc John Wu Lead Of Quality Assurance Engineer Expedia, Inc. John Wu Sales Executive Coldwell Banker John Wu Senior Service Fellow United States Department of Health and H John Wu Chief Financial Officer Chapal Inc. John Wu Payments Product Manager TSYS Corporation John Wu Vice President Wu Enterprises Inc John Wu Tpm Amazon.com, Inc. John Wu President VIAWORLD ADVANCED PRODUCTS INC John Wu Senior Technical Support Engineer Attune Systems Inc. John Wu Network Manager The Agency Group John Wu R and D Special Projects Information Systems Moody Bible Institute John Wu Chief Technical Officer Alibaba.com Limited John Wu Chief Executive Officer Digicon Corporation John Wu Owner Ameditech John Wu Manager, Facilities, Environmental and Building Services Mercedes-Benz U.S. International, Inc. John Wu Staff Geophysicist TOTAL SA John Wu Owner Dependable Collision John Wu President Information Dynamics Inc John Wu Research Intern Carnegie Mellon University John Wu Scientist Pfizer Inc John Wu Credit Lending Club Corporation John Wu Product Manager Xerox John Wu Consultant The Boston Consulting Group John Wu Architect Citigroup Inc. John Wu Program Engineering Manager Northrop Grumman Corporation John Wu Vice President of Software Engineering Novatel Wireless, Inc. John Wu Software Architect Intel Corporation John Wu Auto Advertising Coordinator CHENG SHIN RUBBER IND. CO., LTD. John Wu Senior Director of International Tax Salesforce.com, Inc. John Wu Chief Executive Officer Global Strategic Connections John Wu Director And Professor State of California John Wu Associate Jefferies & Company, Inc. John Wu Consultant Citigroup Inc. The man has many faces. And still that is not him. Steely Dan even wrote a song about him. lucretius 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 They even made a movie of him. Jud 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
lucretius Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Jud said: Steely Dan even wrote a song about him. There's nothing a songwriter won't write to make a rhyme, LOL! mQa is dead! Link to comment
marce Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 7 hours ago, PeterSt said: What could be odd without real notice at first glance, is that you'd always have two channels fighting each other (I tend to direct to possible oscillation). Besides that we usually have more than one clock domain - same thing. Question about the latter (no 7500 to be earned) : how would you approach the virtually required two different oscillators for 44.1 vs 48 base ? I'd refer ti Ti and the such for options... http://www.ti.com/lit/an/scaa088/scaa088.pdf Link to comment
Popular Post PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2018 15 minutes ago, marce said: I'd refer ti Ti and the such for options... Yes, and that wouldn't result in an audio product whatsoever. Not even back in 2008. Say that this shows that knowing a few things about signal integrity is only related for 50% or less to audio. The remainder plainly fails. And no TI or AD etc. papers and articles are going to help out. Also do notice that these are commercial papers, and the first time I'd pick the referenced chip etc. from such a paper yet has to come. One can learn quite a few things from those papers, though. Especially how not to do it. But furthermore and more importantly, the data is there. So we can use those papers for hints. A lot is related (indeed) to those papers being obsolete in no-time. You can already see it by datasheets coming up with new versions of them and e.g. different bypassing methods (like for OpAmps). Same chip, but new datasheet and way better application. That is audio. And since there is no education for audio, "we" need to do it ourselves. General message : Never think you know a lot when you weren't there for real ... look&listen, fas42, Superdad and 1 other 4 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 9 minutes ago, PeterSt said: Yes, and that wouldn't result in an audio product whatsoever. Not even back in 2008. Are you suggesting that TI way “back in 2008” wasn’t interested in audio or rather that they, then, didn’t consider audio in need to high speed design techniques? 9 minutes ago, PeterSt said: Say that this shows that knowing a few things about signal integrity is only related for 50% or less to audio. The remainder plainly fails. And no TI or AD etc. papers and articles are going to help out. Also do notice that these are commercial papers, and the first time I'd pick the referenced chip etc. from such a paper yet has to come. One can learn quite a few things from those papers, though. Especially how not to do it. But furthermore and more importantly, the data is there. So we can use those papers for hints. A lot is related (indeed) to those papers being obsolete in no-time. You can already see it by datasheets coming up with new versions of them and e.g. different bypassing methods (like for OpAmps). Same chip, but new datasheet and way better application. That is audio. Like for the PCM1704? Does TI have an updated data sheet? 9 minutes ago, PeterSt said: And since there is no education for audio, "we" need to do it ourselves. General message : Never think you know a lot when you weren't there for real ... Rather than dismiss that presentation fromTI out of hand, please point to specifics where it is so wrong. TI actually has come out with a wide variety of IC directly targeted at audio, including high end — indeed you use them, they also have a wide variety of USB IC so tell me why they wouldn’t be in the best position to know? Shadders 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 8 hours ago, PeterSt said: It is his number. Did you try it ? OK. Closed now. Seriously? Are we arguing about his name? A 10 year old phone number? What about the specific content of the presentation? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 27 minutes ago, jabbr said: Are you suggesting that TI way “back in 2008” wasn’t interested in audio or rather that they, then, didn’t consider audio in need to high speed design techniques? Um ... that paper is about audio. Did you even open it ? And next read it ? (yes you can do that in a minute or five without missing too much) 28 minutes ago, jabbr said: Like for the PCM1704? Does TI have an updated data sheet? Same thing or else similar. Did you read it and next did you read the specs of your Phasure DAC ? And ? do they match somewhat ? BBZZZZzzzzzzzz OK ? 30 minutes ago, jabbr said: please point to specifics where it is so wrong. You can do it ... you can do it. 31 minutes ago, jabbr said: TI actually has come out with a wide variety of IC directly targeted at audio, including high end Hahahaha. You mean the EOL ones, right ? So No. And No, I won't give examples either. You know it or you don't. Hint : And again I bought those all. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Just now, jabbr said: What about the specific content of the presentation? Wait. Am I to judge that or something ? Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 1 minute ago, PeterSt said: You can do it ... you can do it. No you can do it, I’m not making fun of the guys name or phone number Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 35 minutes ago, jabbr said: Rather than dismiss that presentation fromTI out of hand Wait again. You seem to mix up two presentations. One is a presentation and the other is a paper. I dismiss the paper. Anything else ? Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Just now, jabbr said: No you can do it, I’m not making fun of the guys name or phone number Get real. Have lunch. Whatever. What's up anyway ? Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Just now, mansr said: @PeterSt Please stop fucking up my thread. Fucking threads can be fucked. I have fun with it. You don't understand it either ? not unexpected. If you have nothing serious to do, start laying out where it went wrong. I'll read about it tomorrow. Thanks. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
jabbr Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 1 hour ago, marce said: I'd refer ti Ti and the such for options... http://www.ti.com/lit/an/scaa088/scaa088.pdf This is how I’d criticize this paper: While this technique is one of several that can be used, the close-in phase error at 60-70 dB/Hz @ 100Hz is not close to the best than can be obtained eg 90-120 @ 1Hz ... a lower phase error technique is to use knowledge of which clock family is to be used — which is obtained from the USB driver — and directly select the correct clock family and integer divisor ?♂️ Nothing personal PeterSt 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
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