Tidal app airplayed to Pioneer N50 to Esoteric K01 DAC

[MStream]

I have limited experience and understanding and am somewhat confused.

i am using the Tidal app on my iPad and using Airplay to stream to a Pioneer N50, which has its optical digital output connected to the Esoteric K01 DAC input. Works perfectly and sounds great. 

Am I getting full CD quality?

[Cebolla]

Assuming you have connected with a TIDAL HiFi subscription account, the only issue is that with AirPlay the audio is actually played by the TIDAL app, so it is routed through the iPad/iPhone. See, also:

 

So sound quality wise, you are likely to be better off if the Pioneer N-50 itself plays the the CD quality audio file tracks as supplied by TIDAL's online server and so untouched by the iDevice. For that you need to use a TIDAL HiFi supporting UPnP/DLNA controller app on your iPad, such as mConnect Player (free Lite version available).

[MStream]

Thank you for your reply Cebolla. Yes, I am connected to Tidal HiFi as a trial on my iPad.

 

I really would want to use my Esoteric DAC, not the N50. The N50 analogue outputs aren’t used in my setup at all. I want to use an iPad to control the selection of artists, songs etc. 

 

Just to check: What does the Tidal app do to the data? How is it the “player”? Surely it can’t be then going through the N50 DAC as well before being converted back to digital optical output to feed the Esoteric? 

 

I do stream wirelessly to the N50 from uncompressed WAV music folders on my laptop using the N50 app on my iPad as a control, with the N50 optical outputs then feeding my Esoteric. Great sound, but its not a user friendly app at all, and I can’t access Tidal content. I trust this is not going through the N50 DAC on it’s way, and arrives unchanged at my Esoteric DAC? As an aside, I was wondering if I can improve this situation with different software on my laptop and/or iPad that will talk to the N50 (JRiver and remote?).

 

I think you are also saying I can stream wirelessly this same way from internet connected Tidal software loaded on my laptop, and use the iPad as the control with mConnect? Could I use jriver ? I definitely can’t use the N50 app or DAC as solution for me. 

[Alcap]

Try Chromecast Optical out to your DAC its much beter than quality than AirPlay

[Cebolla]

23 hours ago, MStream said:

I really would want to use my Esoteric DAC, not the N50. The N50 analogue outputs aren’t used in my setup at all. I want to use an iPad to control the selection of artists, songs etc. 

 

Just to check: What does the Tidal app do to the data? How is it the “player”? Surely it can’t be then going through the N50 DAC as well before being converted back to digital optical output to feed the Esoteric?

 

I do stream wirelessly to the N50 from uncompressed WAV music folders on my laptop using the N50 app on my iPad as a control, with the N50 optical outputs then feeding my Esoteric. Great sound, but its not a user friendly app at all, and I can’t access Tidal content. I trust this is not going through the N50 DAC on it’s way, and arrives unchanged at my Esoteric DAC? 

 

First off (no idea where you got the notion from), in no way does any of this involve engaging the N-50's internal DAC, with the N-50 passing the resulting analogue audio to some mysterious ADC (it most definitely doesn't exist), to then output the 'reconverted' digital audio signal via its optical connection to the Esoteric DAC.?

 

The Pioneer N-50 automatically sends the digital audio signal output from its digital audio file player directly to its coaxial & optical output connection, which is totally separate to the connection to its internal DAC. In fact, the same hardware chip (the BridgeCo DM860 Networked Media Processor) that contains the player's audio engine, also handles AirPlay playback. So it is highly likely that the N-50 uses the same audio engine to playback the received AirPlay network audio stream!

 

 

23 hours ago, MStream said:

I think you are also saying I can stream wirelessly this same way from internet connected Tidal software loaded on my laptop, and use the iPad as the control with mConnect?

 

No, I'm actually saying that a TIDAL supporting standard UPnP/DLNA controller iOS app (like mConnect Player) is used to replace TIDAL's own app on the iPad. It provides its own user interface with its own TIDAL HiFi connection for navigating TIDAL's audio library and selecting the tracks for the N-50 to stream and play as supplied by TIDAL's online server.

 

 

23 hours ago, MStream said:

As an aside, I was wondering if I can improve this situation with different software on my laptop and/or iPad that will talk to the N50 (JRiver and remote?).

 

You just need to run a decent music dedicated UPnP media server on your laptop, such as the very well supported MinimServer to provide the audio files for the N-50 (don't use the default Windows DLNA media server, if the laptop is Windows) and any standard UPnP/DLNA controller app on the iPad - most will provide a far better user interface than the Pioneer ControlApp!

 

The only issue is that the Pioneer N-50 will only support gapless playback with the Pioneer ControlApp. However, if your laptop is Windows, you can get around this problem by using the foobar2000 player (with the foo_upnp & foo_out_upnp plugins) as the go between.

 

My current preference is the Linn Kazoo app on iOS, or on Android, the excellent BubbleUPnP app. However, Linn Kazoo is an OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions) streamer controller app, which can't access standard UPnP/DLNA streamers like the N-50. It requires you to run the BubbleUPnP Server helper software on a networked machine (NAS or computer) to get it to control a standard UPnP/DLNA streamer as if it were an OpenHome streamer.

 

BTW, both the Linn Kazoo app & the BubbleUPnP Android (only) app provide TIDAL HiFi access similar to the mConnect Player app.

[MStream]

...

 

[MStream]

Getting used to the forum tools... cut & paste.text size is retained!

 

Cebolla, you make me laugh at myself ... excuse my ongoing ignorance, and appreciate your help. I used dB to rip 600+ CDs to WAV and have used Windows and ControlApp to stream for a few years. I do wonder if WAV was the right choice?? Why is using Windows not a good idea?

Streaming Tidal:

Sounds simple. Use mConnect Player controller app to stream from Tidal server to N50 player. Is Airplay used in this scenario? My hifi is high and I am happy to pay for better or more mainstream software that will endure. Are there alternatives apps I should consider?

Streaming WAV better:

i like the N50, but seems it’s a problem re gapless playback if I want to ditch ControlApp. Assuming there is no software update that fixes this, should I really consider a new streamer?

Comtinuing with the N50, and this will sound dumb, I need Foobar2000 player on the laptop as well as or instead of MinimServer? Or load the Foobar app on the iPad? Seems like a challenge if on the laptop. Once the software is set up on the laptop, does it become easy/invisible in use? Is there alternative software to consider here? Is it easily reversible later when the streamer/software are changed?

if Foobar is for the laptop, I need a ControlApp replacement on the iPad. Will mConnect do this also? What other apps should I consider? JRiver is often mentioned. 

 

Thanks again for the help!

[MStream]

I loaded mConnect app.

Clean and simple to use, and significant improvement in the clarity and especially the treble sparkle when compared with using the Tidal app, and it does seem like CD quality now, so thanks for this recommendation. I notice the app has a gapless play switch, which I set to “on”, but not sure if it changes anything. Gapless means no stopping between tracks? I also notice the tracks can be anything from roughly around 600 to 1700 kbs. Is that normal with Tidal?

I am impressed so far with Tidal streamed this way. 

 

[MStream]

Further comparisons all day today, and this is the best outside service streaming I have achieved to date. My hifi is extremely resolving, and CD still has the edge most often, but not always, and on some occasions it’s hard to audibly separate the two. I am very confused as to why mConnect does not show 1411kbs all the time with Tidal as it did when I trialled it to stream my WAV files off my laptop. Usually mConnect shows that it is running lower with Tidal’s stream, in the range of around 800 to 1000. Rarely it does give me 1411, and on one occasion it surpringly showed somewhere around 1700. Something appears wrong with the set up, or my understanding.

[Cebolla]

Good to see you are now using the mConnect Player app - so you've most likely worked out the answers to your original questions regarding its use for yourself by now!

 

There's nothing wrong with those TIDAL track bitrates that the mConnect Player app is displaying. If you are not already aware, TIDAL's online server supplies its audio file tracks in the lossless but compressed FLAC file format. Unlike WAV files, the bitrate for FLAC is variable because it's dependent on the audio content. Certainly you should expect the bitrate of CD resolution (ie, 16 bit/44.1kHz)  FLAC tracks to usually be between about half to two thirds of that of 1411kbps WAV files - so consistent with the ~600-1000 kbps bitrates you are observing.

 

The surprising 1700kbps FLAC file track was likely a hires undecoded/distribution TIDAL MQA masters file track (can be either 24 bit/44.1kHz or 24 bit/48kHz), which the mConnect Player app provides access to in addition to TIDAL's standard CD resolution FLAC file tracks.

 

 

Incidentally, regarding:

On 9/14/2018 at 3:52 PM, MStream said:

I used dB to rip 600+ CDs to WAV and have used Windows and ControlApp to stream for a few years. I do wonder if WAV was the right choice?? Why is using Windows not a good idea?

I didn't say using Windows is not a good idea, only using the built-in default DLNA media server that comes with it.

 

In the latest versions of Windows, its built-in DLNA media server is enabled by the user turning on the Windows media streaming setting. The Windows DLNA media server has a poor reputation for providing audio files, as it's not very configurable and error prone. It has even been known to unexpectedly & unnecessarily transcode WAV files to lossy MP3 while streaming!

 

If you have turned on Windows media streaming and have not installed a UPnP/DLNA media server of your own, then it's likely you are using the Windows DLNA media server. A big clue if you are using the Windows DLNA media server is its name - it uses the same name as the computer's network name. Because of this people often confuse streaming media files from the Windows DLNA media server with accessing stored files on the computer's networked shared folders - they are most definitely not the same thing!

 

BTW, you don't need to turn on Windows media streaming if you install & use your own UPnP/DLNA media server such as MinimServer (I mentioned in my last post).

 

[MStream]

I have installed MinimServer after installing Java per the instructions. Do I really need Java?After some fiddling, finally got it working and eventually managed to change the ContentDir setting to D:\ , where my uncompressed WAV files are located. It scanned in seconds.  Excellent. I can now see artwork and tracks in correct order, etc on mConnect. What a pleasure this is to use, and I can switch back to Tidal when I like. A revelation for me!

 

It does show the source in the browser screen in the “local server” window on mConnect as “MinimSever[DESKTOP-DUC6B.....]” which is the same name in the box marked “displayName” in the mConnect server properties. Also listed in the mConnect browser screen is another choice: “DESKTOP-DUC6B...+ my windows username”. Accessing this one is the same as using pioneer ControlApp, and turning Windows media streaming off drops this choice from the mConnect browser’s local servers window. The MinimServer choice appears to function the same regardless of whether Windows media streaming is on or not, and perhaps I can leave it on, provided I have selected MinimServer in the browser under “local server”. Does this sound right?

 

Also, I have set both “Gapless by App” and “Gapless to Renderer” to “on” in mConnect’s settings. What do each of these mean......?

I have not tested with these settings off, but I saw that Pioneer did an N50 firmware update which added “Gapless play”, whatever they meant by that. Perhaps I don’t need these mConnect settings “on”?

In a quick test, it seems like I am getting gapless playback somehow, but I would like to find a better test. Gaps between tracks appear close to normal vs CD, maybe 1 second longer, but not sure yet. Is there a more definitive test? 

 

 

[gugnafurku]

Not really, but if you are asking due to stream quality effect believe me it hardlly makes any different. Better you can stick with what you are using rather that upgrading for few more pixels in stream.