Article: Dutch & Dutch 8c Loudspeaker Review

[mitchco]

5 hours ago, dc655321 said:

Nice review, @mitchco.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the acoustic/electric design of the rear-facing subs of the 8c, as it's unclear to me if the subs are designed to also produce or contribute to the controlled (cardioid?) radiation pattern. From the video clip you shared, it appears to my eyes that the subs are out of phase with each other. I could be deceived about this though given that only a small piece of the bottom driver is visible.

 

Given the recommended proximity to the front-wall, the subs will pick up some boundary gain. They will also radiate half of their power around the enclosure (less so if significant radiation-shaping is in play). Do the enclosed back-waves also contribute here? Add to this recipe the blending of the subs with the mid-range speaker and the result is that I'm both super-impressed and super-confused ?

 

A little help, please?

 

Thanks! Here is Martijn's (the designer of the 8c's) explanation from Gearslutz:

 

"The tweeter and midrange on the 8c's are acoustically aligned. They are both delayed to be aligned with the subs, so you get what is often called a virtual point-source. The two subs get the exact same signal. The bass works best when the 8c is placed relatively close to the front-wall. Then the wall and the speaker become a single system, with a hemispherical radiation pattern (this matches well with the cardioid radiation pattern above 100 hz). 

When the 8c is placed right up against the wall, the 'reflection' against the wall is not really a reflection, it is perfectly coincident with the direct sound from the drivers. When there is some distance between the 8c and the wall, the acoustic center of the combination of the woofers and the wall (the point from which the sound appears to emanate) shifts a little towards the wall. With the presets we add a little more delay to the tweeter and midrange to again align them with the bass, so the result is still a virtual point-source with both flat amplitude and phase."

 

If you look at the near field measurements I took of the 8c's in the Objective Measurements section, one can see that indeed the direct and reflected sound are coincident. The result is a virtual  point source with both flat amplitude and phase, as shown by my measurements.

 

Hope that helps.

[m3lraaHnevetS]

Hi Mitch, thanks for an other great review. any plans to review the Grimm LS1a? these are somewhat in the same price range and might be even better than the D&D's...

[mitchco]

Thanks @m3lraaHnevetS Let me look into it...

[mitchco]

On 9/11/2018 at 12:27 PM, joergchm said:

Quick but hopefully not silly question to all proud 8c owners(since I can’t find any description in the specs):

 

Do the speakers turn on (by music signal) and off (after some time without signal) automatically ?

 

Not at this time... But a good question for Martijn @mensink

[H_Space]

@mitchcoWould you trade your current rig for the D&Ds if you could?

I think I might need to sell off my entire inventory so I can buy these. 

[firedog]

6 minutes ago, H_Space said:

@mitchcoWould you trade your current rig for the D&Ds if you could?

I think I might need to sell off my entire inventory so I can buy these. 

I suggest you find a way to audition them and decide. I haven't heard them, but once I auditioned the Kii Three I sold my system and bought the Kiis.

[H_Space]

On 9/17/2018 at 11:17 AM, firedog said:

I suggest you find a way to audition them and decide. I haven't heard them, but once I auditioned the Kii Three I sold my system and bought the Kiis.

Wow, yeah everything about this concept (all-in-one, cardioid, endpoint capable, etc) is very enticing. I've got a demo lined up in the next month or so. Really looking forward to that.

[H_Space]

@mitchco Where'd you get the carpet? I'm looking for something similar.

[Emlin]

There's a review of the THREEs+BXT here:

 

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?p=935959

 

I get the general impression that he quite liked them!

[Emlin]

On 9/5/2018 at 8:26 AM, mitchco said:

@Emlin Ah, I see what you are saying and understood. I am hoping that Martijn @mensink can drop by and comment on the roadmap for the user interface. I know he was on his way to Beijing, so maybe a bit before he can comment...

 

@Em2016  Thanks! Good question. Yes, I understand Roon integration is being developed, but I am hoping like above, Martijn can join the conversation and comment on the streaming roadmap...

 

Hi Mitch, do you know if Martijn @mensink is going to get back to us or not?

[mitchco]

 Hi @Emlin  I reached out to Martijn @mensink and he said he would try to answer the q's today or tomorrow...

[Emlin]

31 minutes ago, mitchco said:

 Hi @Emlin  I reached out to Martijn @mensink and he said he would try to answer the q's today or tomorrow...

 

 

Thanks Mitch, very good of you, and thanks!

[Demetrios]

Hello Mitchco,

 

Thanks fot this review.

A question about DSP : it's easy now tu use softwares like Dirac or to build convolution filters to match your room. 

What is, according to you, the best way for the D&D 8C : use the internal DSP or a soft like Roon with a convolution filter ?

 

Thanks,

Arnaud from France.

[Emlin]

On 10/23/2018 at 7:04 PM, mitchco said:

 Hi @Emlin  I reached out to Martijn @mensink and he said he would try to answer the q's today or tomorrow...

 

Hi Mitch, could to please reach out again, because he hasn't responded?

[hifi_swlon]

Was there any reason Kii Threes were used as a main comparison, and not the Devialet Phantom Golds which I read your review of? I’m just curious since no one seems to compare the 8c to the Phantoms, yet your Phantom review was favourable and they’re quite a bit cheaper.  The Phantoms aren’t for me but just curious as there’s not much ‘pro’ feedback. 

 

Does anyone have more info on D&D plans to make a proper physical volume control? I’ve heard rumours but nothing solid. On paper these speakers are perfect for me and I’d love to demo a pair, but that would be a deal breaker for me in a home environment where there’s no mixing desk! Using an outboard DAC or digital volume control seems counter intuitive since the speaker has everything built in already. 

 

As a general question, are there custom stands and can they be fixed to the stands? I have a young child and would be worried about them getting knocked over and hurting someone or worse (or no doubt damaging the speaker)

[firedog]

29 minutes ago, hifi_swlon said:

Was there any reason Kii Threes were used as a main comparison, and not the Devialet Phantom Golds which I read your review of? I’m just curious since no one seems to compare the 8c to the Phantoms, yet your Phantom review was favourable and they’re quite a bit cheaper.  The Phantoms aren’t for me but just curious as there’s not much ‘pro’ feedback. 

 

Does anyone have more info on D&D plans to make a proper physical volume control? I’ve heard rumours but nothing solid. On paper these speakers are perfect for me and I’d love to demo a pair, but that would be a deal breaker for me in a home environment where there’s no mixing desk! Using an outboard DAC or digital volume control seems counter intuitive since the speaker has everything built in already. 

 

As a general question, are there custom stands and can they be fixed to the stands? I have a young child and would be worried about them getting knocked over and hurting someone or worse (or no doubt damaging the speaker)

I think no one compares them because everyone who has heard either the Kii or the 8C and the Phantoms says the Phantoms aren't in the same leaque, in terms of SQ....

As far as I know people who want a physical volume control or a remote - not software - volume control for the 8C are doing exactly what you suggested - buying an outboard box to add in to the setup. BTW, the same thing happens with the Kiis. If  you want a HW volume control or a HW remote - you buy the Kii Control. The difference is that the Kii Control is made to work with the Kii system and gives you all sorts of other advantages beyond volume. 

[hifi_swlon]

Mitch seemed impressed with Phantoms and their measurements?

 

Yes I think had the Kii Control been wireless, and the inputs on a hidden wired box somewhere else  (a far more elegant and domestically friendly solution IMO) I’d probably have bought kii’s earlier in the year! 

 

In a way glad I didn’t as there’s at least one other option now. 

 

Would really just love a beautiful remote and input selector on something like an 8c. Am spolit with my Devialet Expert remote which is beautiful and perfect and frankly one of the best things about the hardware. Hard to go back to something ‘worse’.....

 

 

 

 

 

[mitchco]

 Hi @Emlin  I reached out to Martijn again. I have seen part of his travel schedule and could be a while  May I suggest you reach out directly to Dutch and Dutch at their website, Facebook or twitter contacts.

[Emlin]

3 minutes ago, mitchco said:

 Hi @Emlin  I reached out to Martijn again. I have seen part of his travel schedule and could be a while  May I suggest you reach out directly to Dutch and Dutch at their website, Facebook or twitter contacts.

Hmmm, this seems like fog to me.

[mitchco]

On 10/29/2018 at 3:48 AM, Demetrios said:

Hello Mitchco,

 

Thanks fot this review.

A question about DSP : it's easy now tu use softwares like Dirac or to build convolution filters to match your room. 

What is, according to you, the best way for the D&D 8C : use the internal DSP or a soft like Roon with a convolution filter ?

 

Thanks,

Arnaud from France.

 

Hi Arnaud,

 

Can you take measurements? I would suggest trying the on board DSP first. If you can get ±3 dB tolerance in the frequency response using the on board DSP, then you have achieved studio control room frequency response accuracy.

 

If not, then yes, external DSP control can be used to achieve the goal. It would be nice if the external DSP correction is from about 500 Hz on down and leave the natural voice of the speaker alone above 500 Hz. Even in my problematic room ratio room, I was able to achieve ±3 dB accuracy with the on board DSP.

 

Good luck!

Mitch

[mitchco]

8 hours ago, hifi_swlon said:

Mitch seemed impressed with Phantoms and their measurements?

 

...

 

Hi @hifi_swlon Yes, they had a very nice midrange up to about 4 kHz and then got way too bright for me. Also the bass quality is different. Don't know how best to describe it, but certainly no cabinet sound.

 

Here is an overlay of the D&D and Phantom Gold frequency response measured at the listening position:

 

 

 

One can see a smoother and flatter low frequency response of the 8c due to is unique passive cardioid design and DSP . Then both perform more or less equal from about 300 Hz to about 4 kHz - like I say, nice midrange and directivity. Then from 4 kHz on up, the Phantom simply has way too much high frequency energy for my ears.

 

Of course, I can easily apply external DSP. But that can be applied to any speaker... So what can the speaker do itself? Unless something has changed with Devialet, it is a shame that they don't at least have a treble or tone contour control. But then that leaves the bottom end peak and dip...

[mensink]

Hi everybody, 

 

I've been meaning to properly reply to the many remarks and questions, but I've had the flu and I've been buried in work lately. But it's taken too long now. I'll try to reply to one post at a time!

 

Mitch, I've already thanked you for your wonderful review of the 8c's in private, but here too I'd like to express my gratitude for such an incredibly in-depth expert review! Still reading up on all the references .

 

I'll be back!

 

Cheers, Martijn

[hifi_swlon]

Great to see you contributing here @mensink. I love the look of these and planning to demo them very soon (having a very challenging home living room space) as soon as a demo pair become available and I have a spare weekend!

 

I have a few questions that I can’t find answers to on the D&D website if/when you have time (apologies if have already been asked above):

 

What bit depth/sample rate does the internal DAC/DSP run at? 

 

Are the DAC, streaming module and amps proprietary or third party? Can you tell us a bit more about each?

 

Whats the max input rate that can be fed in via AES and network (assuming RoonReady).

 

Do you know whether they will be true RoonReady (ie be able to be grouped with other RoonReady devices) or a specific setup for D&D only. 

 

The website mentions a native native app for volume etc (which one would hope could run within a local LAN only), but all reviews point only to a very basic looking web app. 

 

How do the electronics keep cool?  Many actives have large heat sinks even for class D, but these appear to have only a very small fan. I guess I’m thinking electronics lifespan being as they’re quite expensive and have a relatively short warranty. 

 

When a lower max volume is set at the speaker level, what’s happening? Is it a DSP reduction or are the amps running at lower power. 

 

How does servicing/repair work? Again, just thinking about longer term ownership. 

 

Would love to see a beautiful hardware wireless remote (Bluetooth or radio) for volume and input, and an ‘input box’ for additional sources to make them more family friendly (airplay etc). But this can all come later. 

 

Exciting times.

 

[Emlin]

On 11/13/2018 at 4:11 PM, mensink said:

Hi everybody, 

 

I've been meaning to properly reply to the many remarks and questions, but I've had the flu and I've been buried in work lately. But it's taken too long now. I'll try to reply to one post at a time!

 

Mitch, I've already thanked you for your wonderful review of the 8c's in private, but here too I'd like to express my gratitude for such an incredibly in-depth expert review! Still reading up on all the references .

 

I'll be back!

 

Cheers, Martijn

 

 

Where are you Martijn, he who is so concerned about our simple questions? You have time over on Gearslutz to diss the Kiis (ineffectually), but none to reply here!

[mensink]

On 9/5/2018 at 3:15 AM, Emlin said:

 

Thanks for getting back to me, but I was not so much concerned about the quality of the web app volume control, but more its usability. As the 8Cs don't have a USB input to connect a PC running JRiver (or whatever), it looks like another (expensive) box with remote control would be necessary for my needs if the app isn't up to it (as I've heard elsewhere). As good as these things seem to be, the lack of a decent interface in a domestic environment could be their Achilles heel, it seems. What are your thoughts on that? Thanks.

 

You're right Emlin, the web-app is fully functional, but has its practical limitations. For instance, it looks rather basic and it takes some time for the web page to load and connect with the 8c's. Once you're in, the 8c's do respond instantly to commands, but the web-app isn't really suitable for use as a remote, because for that you'd want more or less instant control. We are working on native apps for Android, iOS en Windows with a better user experience.

 

The 8c's indeed don't have a USB input. We believe USB doesn't have a future in high end audio. We believe in audio over internet protocol (AOIP). Roon is the first step, but expect many other formats soon after the 8c's become Roon Ready. We're in the final stages of being certified by Roon. 

 

We are also working sort of a preamp/streamer box with remote control for those who would like to connect many different sources and want to have a physical device to interface with.