Popular Post mitchco Posted September 5, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 5, 2018 1 hour ago, christopher3393 said: Thanks for the review, Mitch. Very promising. Looks like only a 2 year warranty ( https://dutchdutch.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/8c-Manual-English.pdf, p. 15. Not clear if this has to be sent to Netherlands, but looks like it. The weight involved is going to be challenging for shipping. I wonder how good their packaging is? I am glad you liked it! The packaging is excellent, double thick cardboard boxes with foam inserts that float the speaker. I believe there is a dealer network, but, it is unlikely that the whole speaker would need to be shipped back to the Netherlands unless there was physical damage to the cabinet or drivers. The electronics panel has 6 screws on the bottom and 3 cables to unclip to be able to remove the panel and ship. So in the unlikely event that the loudspeaker needs servicing, it is more likely that it would be the electronic panel that needs shipping, which is small and weighs less than 5 lbs. The Computer Audiophile, markvandepas and christopher3393 1 2 Accurate Sound Link to comment
mitchco Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 22 hours ago, mitchco said: Depending on how lively your room is will depend on whether you ditch the room treatments or not. In the article, I reference industry guidelines for studio control rooms and critical listening rooms, which there is a spec for decay time based on the volume of the room. Mostly it is a range. Even with a few broadband absorbers on the back wall and heavy acoustic drapes on the front wall, my room is at the upper limit of the spec for being almost too lively, but the response is smooth across the frequency range. It's late now, but I will post the decay time of my room tomorrow. Just following up and posting the RT60 or REW decay time for my room. This is with 4 x 2' x 4' broadband absorber panels on the back wall, 2 more on the left side wall, that you can see in the room pic. 2 x bass traps on the left, in front of an unused fireplace. Keeps the metal from rattling and the cavity from resonating. Heavy 20 oz velour acoustic curtains. Thick carpet with double underlay between the speakers and couch. While I get a nice flat response for reverb/decay time, it is at the top range of recommended reverb (i.e. decay) time for my room. volume. Top range is 400 ms. Meaning, while the room has an even decay time over a broad frequency range, it is still a lively room. You can hear it on the sub recording above in Rihanna's voice about 3 seconds before the video ends... asdf1000 1 Accurate Sound Link to comment
mitchco Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 12 hours ago, PeterG said: Interesting question in two ways, starting with the "reference". Now that you push me, I see that I do not mean reference in the literal sense--I mean that a reviewer needs to put us in the ballpark of how he is defining "good". The answer I was looking for would be something like--"beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you should listen for yourself, but the 8c's are good competition for other stand-mounts in the $5-10K range such as....Of course you'll need to buy an amp for those". Virtually every professional review does this, including your own. Back to your assertion that the room is the biggest instrument. That may be the answer to the big question--maybe the 8c's are not in the big leagues in a good room, but jump to the front of the pack in a problem room? I am not asserting that either of these things is true I also do not accept the idea that these are unique in the way that matters most--i.e. there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd really like to know how a person might evaluate the 8c's and a headphone amp (as Mitchco has done) against a price comparable combo of amp/speakers/room correction, or just amp/speakers in a typical room. The whole area of room correction is fascinating, important, and debatable--let's have the debate! Big picture--I think CA's guest reviewers bring a welcome fresh take. Mitchco has written a terrific piece that we never would have read elsewhere. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are certain things that every review should include. Price and performance against some defined competition are two of those things. Peter, as you may or may not know, I am big into digital room correction. You will find four articles here on CA, plus a book. I understand what you are saying. Based on the directivity and voicing of the 8c's, I would say that super smooth, tilted response would sound similar to the Revel Salon2's. If one overlaid the frequency responses measured at the LP, they are quite alike... The issue is that many speakers are still voiced using a flawed approach, as mentioned in the soapbox section and elsewhere. Sean Olive and other studies have shown that there is no correlation between price and frequency response. When it comes to speakers, frequency response is the determining factor for our subjective opinion of sound quality. This makes it harder to compare to other speakers... Accurate Sound Link to comment
jtwrace Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 6 hours ago, mitchco said: I understand what you are saying. Based on the directivity and voicing of the 8c's, I would say that super smooth, tilted response would sound similar to the Revel Salon2's. If one overlaid the frequency responses measured at the LP, they are quite alike... Based on this comment, I'll stick with my JBL M2's. I still much prefer them over the Salon2's. Now I just need to get focused on Audiolense when time allows. W10 NUC i7 (Gen 10) > Roon (Audiolense FIR) > Motu UltraLite mk5 > (4) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference +4 subs Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 19 hours ago, PeterG said: Interesting question in two ways, starting with the "reference". Now that you push me, I see that I do not mean reference in the literal sense--I mean that a reviewer needs to put us in the ballpark of how he is defining "good". The answer I was looking for would be something like--"beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so you should listen for yourself, but the 8c's are good competition for other stand-mounts in the $5-10K range such as....Of course you'll need to buy an amp for those". Virtually every professional review does this, including your own. Back to your assertion that the room is the biggest instrument. That may be the answer to the big question--maybe the 8c's are not in the big leagues in a good room, but jump to the front of the pack in a problem room? I am not asserting that either of these things is true I also do not accept the idea that these are unique in the way that matters most--i.e. there's more than one way to skin a cat. I'd really like to know how a person might evaluate the 8c's and a headphone amp (as Mitchco has done) against a price comparable combo of amp/speakers/room correction, or just amp/speakers in a typical room. The whole area of room correction is fascinating, important, and debatable--let's have the debate! Big picture--I think CA's guest reviewers bring a welcome fresh take. Mitchco has written a terrific piece that we never would have read elsewhere. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are certain things that every review should include. Price and performance against some defined competition are two of those things. Thanks for the well thought out reply Peter. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post JR_Audio Posted September 6, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2018 Hi Mitch. Wow, another great review from you. Congrats on that. I enjoyed every paragraph you have written. I am familiar with both speakers (Dutch & Dutch 8c and Kii THREE) and do agree with many points you have described. But for most, it is great to see such thorough review of speakers with the focus, how they behave at home, and not mainly in anechoic chambers. Juergen asdf1000, mitchco and esldude 3 Link to comment
Popular Post PeterG Posted September 6, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 6, 2018 15 hours ago, mitchco said: Peter, as you may or may not know, I am big into digital room correction. You will find four articles here on CA, plus a book. I understand what you are saying. Based on the directivity and voicing of the 8c's, I would say that super smooth, tilted response would sound similar to the Revel Salon2's. If one overlaid the frequency responses measured at the LP, they are quite alike... The issue is that many speakers are still voiced using a flawed approach, as mentioned in the soapbox section and elsewhere. Sean Olive and other studies have shown that there is no correlation between price and frequency response. When it comes to speakers, frequency response is the determining factor for our subjective opinion of sound quality. This makes it harder to compare to other speakers... Thanks, Mitch--I will read all of these. I am just getting started in my thinking on room correction, but I expect it to be very helpful. I have a pretty good system (Naim Uniti Core into Yggy into McIntosh C22/MC275 VI into B&W 805D3 and DB3D) in a compromised room (the open concept living room I share with my wife who insists that our living room look like a living room). It's on my to-do list for the Fall to try out a MEN220, but I'm open to anything that will fit into the current chain and is implementable by an amateur. Cheers! mitchco and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 Link to comment
mitchco Posted September 7, 2018 Author Share Posted September 7, 2018 7 hours ago, JR_Audio said: Hi Mitch. Wow, another great review from you. Congrats on that. I enjoyed every paragraph you have written. I am familiar with both speakers (Dutch & Dutch 8c and Kii THREE) and do agree with many points you have described. But for most, it is great to see such thorough review of speakers with the focus, how they behave at home, and not mainly in anechoic chambers. Juergen Thanks Juergen! I appreciate you giving my articles a read and your kind comments! Yes, I am amassing a nice little library of in-room measurements. There are some interesting correlations... In the end, it is all about how speakers sound in a home environment. More to come... Thanks again. Cheers, Mitch Accurate Sound Link to comment
Ron Scubadiver Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Definitely a cutting edge product that flies in the face of the mix and match philosophy. I suspect it will work best in the streaming mode if the source is digital as it avoids extra AD and DA conversions. Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted September 7, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Ron Scubadiver said: Definitely a cutting edge product that flies in the face of the mix and match philosophy. I suspect it will work best in the streaming mode if the source is digital as it avoids extra AD and DA conversions. If it is anything like the Kii, you may surprised how little difference that makes. The A/D/A conversion in the Kii, is transparent - or very close to it. There are Kii owners using it with a turntable as the source and they say they are quite satisfied with the result. mitchco and mensink 2 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
gingerbeer Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 11 hours ago, firedog said: If it is anything like the Kii, you may surprised how little difference that makes. The A/D/A conversion in the Kii, is transparent - or very close to it. Agreed. When I auditioned the kii3 and the 8c side by side I would run one from analog and the other from digital to A/B them. Swapping cables so the sources were reversed wasn’t noticable. Link to comment
sixman Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 On 9/6/2018 at 4:32 AM, mitchco said: I am glad you liked it! The packaging is excellent, double thick cardboard boxes with foam inserts that float the speaker. I believe there is a dealer network, but, it is unlikely that the whole speaker would need to be shipped back to the Netherlands unless there was physical damage to the cabinet or drivers. The electronics panel has 6 screws on the bottom and 3 cables to unclip to be able to remove the panel and ship. So in the unlikely event that the loudspeaker needs servicing, it is more likely that it would be the electronic panel that needs shipping, which is small and weighs less than 5 lbs. Ah, this is interesting. I guess theoretically the electronic panel can be replaced/upgraded with the inevitable progress in technology. Not locked into "legacy" hardware. mitchco 1 Link to comment
Ron Scubadiver Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 On 9/7/2018 at 11:19 AM, firedog said: If it is anything like the Kii, you may surprised how little difference that makes. The A/D/A conversion in the Kii, is transparent - or very close to it. There are Kii owners using it with a turntable as the source and they say they are quite satisfied with the result. A turntable is an analogue source, so there is no alternative but to convert it to digital at some point and in a speaker with a built in DAC using it is the most direct approach. I was thinking about a digital source like a computer could skip a separate DAC and let the electronics in the speaker do all the work. Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Ron Scubadiver said: A turntable is an analogue source, so there is no alternative but to convert it to digital at some point and in a speaker with a built in DAC using it is the most direct approach. I was thinking about a digital source like a computer could skip a separate DAC and let the electronics in the speaker do all the work. But, of course. Isn't that the general intent? Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
heycarlos Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 Fabulous review. I am really heartened to see someone from a pro-audio background doing reviews that reach the traditional HiFi/audiophile audience . I think this adds a much needed perspective in the audiophile world. How do the Dutch and Dutch speakers compare to the mixing monitors you used in your career as an audio engineer? I'm not sure if you mostly mixed on Genelec, Focal, ATC, Barefoot, etc but would be nice to hear what you think as the pro monitors strive for this truly neutral sound as table stakes. Great work and kudos to Chris for bringing you on board! coot 1 Genelec 8030a with 7050b sub > Peachtree Decco 2 > Apple TV Link to comment
mitchco Posted September 9, 2018 Author Share Posted September 9, 2018 @heycarlos Thanks for your kind words. It was a long time ago... At that time, most studios had a soffit mounted pair of Urei 813 time aligns or Westlake's were very popular. For near fields, Yamaha NS-10M, JBL's of all sorts from 4312's to 4401's to 4406's to 4311's and on it went - it was all West Coast sound where I was... I had Tannoy NFM-8 which were really nice, but they still had not worked out the odd midrange bump of their dual concentric design. Auratones (horrortones!) were everywhere and far from being fidelity - used to check how your mix would sound over a car radio ? Relative to the nearfields back in the day, none compared at all to the 8c's. Nearfields sitting on the mixing bridge were typically free field and always lacked bass. Also the industry was just catching on how controlled dispersion was a big deal as most speakers from that era had narrowing directivity as frequency increases. So during final mixdown, the artists and producer would take turns sitting in the mxing chair as that was the only place where to top end balance was correct... Really wish I had the 8c's back then!! Accurate Sound Link to comment
joergchm Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 So many thanks for this stellar detailed review! I’m really tempted to give the 8c now a detailed „test run“ and compare to my Accuphase/Martin Logan combo....! Do you know any way to control the volume of the 8cˋs with a „real“ remote control instead of the webinterface? It’s really hard to pitch a system to my wife without a real remote control ? Link to comment
firedog Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 10 hours ago, joergchm said: So many thanks for this stellar detailed review! I’m really tempted to give the 8c now a detailed „test run“ and compare to my Accuphase/Martin Logan combo....! Do you know any way to control the volume of the 8cˋs with a „real“ remote control instead of the webinterface? It’s really hard to pitch a system to my wife without a real remote control ? You'd need something like the Weiss INT203 or 202 (I'm not familiar with exactly the inputs/outputs needed for this and the 8c to match up, but that's the idea) that will transfer a signal and has a remote volume control. You should ask an 8c dealer what they recommend. My guess is that you can find something in the pro audio world that will do the trick and not cost thousands. I'm with you, don't want software volume control. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Ron Scubadiver Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 On 9/8/2018 at 6:32 PM, Kal Rubinson said: But, of course. Isn't that the general intent? Yes, but someone else replied to me earlier and he did not seem to see it that way. Link to comment
Popular Post JR_Audio Posted September 10, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted September 10, 2018 For my Genelecs 8260 in my Mixing / Mastering Room, that are coaxial from low mid on, so very good sound stage and localization for near / mid field mixing and mastering, but not time coherent, I have the miniDSP Dirac DDRC-22D (Digital-In to Digital-Out) and use this for Room EQ (that could the Genelec GLM also) and also to make them time coherent, and use the digital volume control of the miniDSP to control the SPL. Yes, I know, the miniDSP does run internally with 96 kHz sample rate, and does SRC all other sample rates, but being time coherent up the 48 kHz (96 kHz / 2) is of much higher of value, than having for example 192 kHz all the way through, but not time coherent. Juergen The Computer Audiophile, MikeJazz, asdf1000 and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
M DeBoard Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Very well written review. Extremely thorough. I do disagree with the rolled off treble that you appear to like. I know you've played a role as recording engineer/producer. You obviously have heard a drum kit in person. How do you reconcile the sound of live drums/cymbals with a rolled off top end? The last thing I want to hear is the lifeless, boring, no top end of the original "Born to Run" of the seventies. A drum kit in a real room is bright and aggressive. Why shouldn't it be when played through a stereo system? Link to comment
joergchm Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Quick but hopefully not silly question to all proud 8c owners(since I can’t find any description in the specs): Do the speakers turn on (by music signal) and off (after some time without signal) automatically ? Link to comment
Popular Post mitchco Posted September 11, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 11, 2018 @M DeBoard Thanks for your comments. I know it is counter intuitive, but if you look back in the Setup. Config and Calibration section, you will see a slide entitled, "Perceived versus measured spectral balance." What it is showing is while the steady state, in-room measurement is a sloping or tilted response from 20 Hz to -10 dB at 20 kHz, is actually perceived by our ears/brain as a "flat" or neutral response. If you follow the links in that section to Dr. Sean Olive's and Dr. Floyd Toole's research, there is quite a bit of science behind this, which correlates this perceived versus measured spectral balance. This research has been repeated several times, with many participants in controlled subjective listening tests, and the results are consistent. As noted in the slide, a measured flat in-room response is not the preferred target. Our ears would "perceive" that is way too bright. I have tried that a number of times and would agree. I have a drum kit in the same room as the speakers and often play along. With the speakers calibrated to sound perceptually flat (i.e. in-room measured response from 20 Hz to -10 dB at 20 kHz). The spectral balance sounds tonally neutral to my ears, not too dull, not too bright, but just right ? While most speakers can't match the sheer output of a live acoustic drum kit, the cymbals do not sound rolled off at all and match the tonal balance when I put sticks to cymbals on my kit. In the listening results section, I wrote a couple of paragraphs on this comparing to a recordings of cymbals and bells. Definitely does not sound rolled off. Hopefully that reconciles the discrepancy between the measured in room response versus what our ears/brain perceives. Pibroch and blue2 2 Accurate Sound Link to comment
dc655321 Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Nice review, @mitchco. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the acoustic/electric design of the rear-facing subs of the 8c, as it's unclear to me if the subs are designed to also produce or contribute to the controlled (cardioid?) radiation pattern. From the video clip you shared, it appears to my eyes that the subs are out of phase with each other. I could be deceived about this though given that only a small piece of the bottom driver is visible. Given the recommended proximity to the front-wall, the subs will pick up some boundary gain. They will also radiate half of their power around the enclosure (less so if significant radiation-shaping is in play). Do the enclosed back-waves also contribute here? Add to this recipe the blending of the subs with the mid-range speaker and the result is that I'm both super-impressed and super-confused ? A little help, please? Link to comment
Hyperion Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 On 9/4/2018 at 11:34 PM, Emlin said: Hi Mitch. How were you controlling the volume (and mute) on these? The Kii has the Control which seems very convenient. Did you try the web browser "app" for this? If so, is it adequate? The volume can be adjusted using the web app from your mobile device. When the Roon Endpoint implementation is released, you will of course be able to control the volume through Roon as well. / Marcus, www.perfect-sense.se PERFECT SENSE www.perfect-sense.se Showroom in Stockholm, Sweden | [email protected] | 08 518 368 00 | Follow us on Facebook Link to comment
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