How to listen to speakers?

[HIFI]

30 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

That's how it works with conventional quality playback - the brain can't distinguish the room information from the information that is being conveyed about the spaces that the recordings captured, or has encoded.

 

To overcome this, the SQ has to be improved for the playback chain - at a certain point in the quality balance the mind is now able to separate these two contributions to one sensing sound happening in a space. This when taken to a high level allows the brain to completely discard the room contributions; the latter are fully 'masked' by the acoustics of the recording - and, "the room disappears!", "I'm taken back to where the musicians were playing!" sort of comments are made.

 

You no longer have "the sound of my speakers" - you have, instead, ""the sound of the recording". This is highly distinct, unique, and always sounds the same, wherever and whenever you play it.

Brad, you can ignore this reply.  

 

He’s goofy 

[HIFI]

39 minutes ago, STC said:

 

A wide dispersion speakers benefits the users by creating lateral reflection which is important  for musical experience. It doesn't change imaging. The most accurate imaging is possible when you use spot light speakers which are highly directional. 

I think Brad is referring to “linear response” off axis design driver.  Wide dispersion would be a goal but if it’s not linear (somewhat flat) you would have a hard time, in a typical listening room, correcting specific frequency in-efficiencies of a drivers output.

 

I was thinking about your “spot light” speaker.... After my last conversation with Brad I thought the same thing.  Let’s concept a speaker that is directional in  design.  I was thinking about a couple different speakers I have owned that have , by design, less vertical dispersion.  These worked well in respect to limiting floor and ceiling reflections.  Would it be possible to do the same with horizontal dispersion in design so there could be less room issues to correct and therefore listen less of my room and more of the recorded room?  It didn’t take long for me to realize such a design would make the sweet spot even smaller.  Something I don’t want.

 

I will say this .... all of this discussion matters because we put our speakers in a room with boundaries.  If we had no boundaries, wide and linear frequency response makes for a big sweet spot.

 

 

[STC]

16 minutes ago, HIFI said:

I am going to try and answer this....

 

Same signal, delayed from boundary distance cancelation or sums, is easy to hear and understand.  Most listening rooms suffer and bass cancelations/sums, to my ears, are the most noticeable   Midrange and high frequency information as well.  

 

 

 

This is going to need a long reply but I will confine to points raised by Lone Mountain Audio explaining the virtues of wide dispersion speakers.

 

Sometimes we overlook that we receive sound input not from a single point but at least two. Let's ignore bone conduction and others for now.  A 100Hz is about 3.4meter long. The difference in phase and level between the two ears is hardly noticeable . In a room, the original direct sound of LF will have enough energy  and will be within the 360 degrees cycle so that the phase difference results in peaks and dips. This is where a narrow dispersion speakers may sound better in a room with high reflection.

 

However, when you talk about mid and HF, we are talking about frequencies with short wave length. These frequencies  gone several cycles of 360 degrees and would reach much later than 1ms and adds envelopment or spaciousness. They all arrive at different time which is outside the original direct soundwave that hit the ear drums. This will not cancel out or add to the original sound wave although the delays have other effects. Toole's Sound Reproduction book is a good reference to understand this subject better.

[STC]

19 minutes ago, HIFI said:

It didn’t take long for me to realize such a design would make the sweet spot even smaller.

 

Sweet spot is a spot where the phantom images created by the stereo speakers is accurate reflection of the original event.  Sometimes, sweet spot term is used to describe where the sound is sweet without taking into the account of the imaging accuracy. Musically, sweet spot for accurate phantom image is not important. However, if the obsession is to recreate the soundscape of the actual instruments placement than the sweet spot will get progressively smaller. That is a spot that we receive exact left and right signal of the speakers.

[HIFI]

8 minutes ago, STC said:

 

This is going to need a long reply but I will confine to points raised by Lone Mountain Audio explaining the virtues of wide dispersion speakers.

 

Sometimes we overlook that we receive sound input not from a single point but at least two. Let's ignore bone conduction and others for now.  A 100Hz is about 3.4meter long. The difference in phase and level between the two ears is hardly noticeable . In a room, the original direct sound of LF will have enough energy  and will be within the 360 degrees cycle so that the phase difference results in peaks and dips. This is where a narrow dispersion speakers may sound better in a room with high reflection.

 

However, when you talk about mid and HF, we are talking about frequencies with short wave length. These frequencies  gone several cycles of 360 degrees and would reach much later than 1ms and adds envelopment or spaciousness. They all arrive at different time which is outside the original direct soundwave that hit the ear drums. This will not cancel out or add to the original sound wave although the delays have other effects. Toole's Sound Reproduction book is a good reference to understand this subject better.

I’m not sure I follow your explanation.  

 

I do believe my ears. I have heard summing (booming) and cancellations (drop out) in lower frequencies and have heard relief of both after addressing those issues with room treatments.  I can’t say that I have heard summing or cancellations as obvious in mids and highs but I have heard the difference after room treatment was in place.  

 

 I don’t think the length of waveforms and ear distance is a science you can use to make your point.  If we were to replace our ears with a microphone and “look” I think we would see clearly, from top to bottom end, phase summing and cancellations. 

 

Please know....I’m not saying I’m right.  I just don’t fall in your camp on this one.

 

[HIFI]

14 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Sweet spot is a spot where the phantom images created by the stereo speakers is accurate reflection of the original event.  Sometimes, sweet spot term is used to describe where the sound is sweet without taking into the account of the imaging accuracy. Musically, sweet spot for accurate phantom image is not important. However, if the obsession is to recreate the soundscape of the actual instruments placement than the sweet spot will get progressively smaller. That is a spot that we receive exact left and right signal of the speakers.

It is my goal to recreate the soundscape of the individual instruments in there space along with the sound of the room it was recorded in.  And yes...timing is everything and sweet spot is small.  But I have to say....Most Rewarding!

[STC]

3 minutes ago, HIFI said:

I do believe my ears. I have heard summing (booming) and cancellations (drop out) in lower frequencies and have heard relief of both after addressing those issues with room treatments.  I can’t say that I have heard summing or cancellations as obvious in mids and highs but I have heard the difference after room treatment was in place.  

 

I am saying the same. 

 

1) In a room, the original direct sound of LF will have enough energy  and will be within the 360 degrees cycle so that the phase difference results in peaks and dips.

 

2) in regards to HF - This will not cancel out or add to the original sound wave although the delays have other effects.

[HIFI]

6 minutes ago, STC said:

 

I am saying the same. 

 

 

2) in regards to HF - This will not cancel out or add to the original sound wave although the delays have other effects.

This is incorrect.  While you may not hear the cancellations as obvious you can hear the summing of delayed (added) signals in highs easy.  Frankly I find it rather easy to discover the timing delay (slap echo) of high frequency in a room

[STC]

8 minutes ago, HIFI said:

This is incorrect.  While you may not hear the cancellations as obvious you can hear the summing of delayed (added) signals in highs easy.  Frankly I find it rather easy to discover the timing delay (slap echo) of high frequency in a room

 

Slap echo is distinct late reflection of longer than 80ms. If you hear them then you need to treat the room. 

[HIFI]

STC

 

Im not suggesting that we look for a speaker that beams to our ears nor am I suggesting that removing all high frequency summing that was created by our room boundaries.  I think we need our rooms to contain, for some period of time, what the speakers reproduce.  The information has to “blossom” so to speak.  I say this because I have listened in an over treated room.  It simply lacked life and realism.

[STC]

21 minutes ago, HIFI said:

STC

 

Im not suggesting that we look for a speaker that beams to our ears nor am I suggesting that removing all high frequency summing that was created by our room boundaries.  I think we need our rooms to contain, for some period of time, what the speakers reproduce.  The information has to “blossom” so to speak.  I say this because I have listened in an over treated room.  It simply lacked life and realism.

 

You are 100% correct. Contrary to what many audiophiles say , the recordings only contains the frontal stage space/reverb information. The sound from the speaker is an event itself that need to be reproduced like how we would assemble the musicians in a good acoustics venue. 

 

The natural room reflection of the speakers enhances the realism provided the reflection characteristic is flat or ideally sloping. It is all how about how we use the reflection to create make believe realism during playback. 

 

I am only slightly disagreeing with the reasoning not the observation. 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

3 hours ago, HIFI said:

 

 

I will say this .... all of this discussion matters because we put our speakers in a room with boundaries.  If we had no boundaries, wide and linear frequency response makes for a big sweet spot.

 

 

Exactly!  Wide dispersion and linear frequency response makes for a BIGGER sweet spot than would normally exist in a room with boundaries.  

 

Brad

[STC]

Quote

Exactly!  Wide dispersion and linear frequency response makes for a BIGGER sweet spot than would normally exist in a room with boundaries.  

 

 

D'Antonio suggested enhancing the "sweet spot" by using reflection phase grating. Philips suggested using DSP and additional drivers. The ITU standard is plus and minus 30 degree from the front speakers. If by the aid of reflection the corrupted sweet spot, what is the size of the mouth during vocal at realistic sound level? Is it natural? Technically, by averaging the sound of direct and reflected you can have constant level at a slightly compromised accuracy of a smaller sweet spot and can sound nice with big orchestra music for its ASW. In this sense,  wide dispersion and linear frequency speakers can give a bigger sweet spot as long as the difference in level is insignificant. More accurate for imaging? I may over overlooked the obvious. 

 

Play a good vocal recording and visualize the mouth size. Do you have the voice coming from a normal size human or a ten foot giant? Compare the sweet spot with the two different speakers dispersion.

 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

7 hours ago, STC said:

 

Play a good vocal recording and visualize the mouth size. Do you have the voice coming from a normal size human or a ten foot giant? Compare the sweet spot with the two different speakers dispersion.

 

 

Comparing the size of a voice to the size of a sweet spot to determine if this larger dispersion is accurate is not the best example.   In a proper image, it should sound exactly like a voice, a real person singing from one spot.  The sound of the room in the recording, or the instruments surrounding the voice- that could be placed around the voice as the band is arranged by the mixer or placed as the real event if recorded live, these additional elements would give you the clue how large your sweet spot is.  If everything is down to a tiny point and voices instruments all appear to be coming form one small spot in space between the speakers, that is not correct.  That's what mono sounds like with two speakers.  Thats what a tiny sweet spot and poor speaker dispersion will do.  A wide dispersion speaker placed well in a reasonable acoustic space gives the playback listener a sense of a single voice in the middle of a larger band- all elements spread out with their own space, with the drums there, the bass over there and the guitar over there.  Patricia Barber live shows in NY recorded by Jim Anderson give you that if you have a nice system.   

 

Now to be fair, recreating the complete width of the band in the real recording space is not easily possible with a stereo, as the band could be spread out across a large distance as an orchestra is spread out across a stage.  For this we need more speakers spread wide in a  larger space PLUS additional mix channels - and that brings us to the next level of production: : immersive.  Object based mixing is happening for music (the underpinning of Dolby ATMOS or DTS X), I've already attended a mix session or two in LA that were mind blowing.   Very exciting stuff!

 

Brad

[fas42]

7 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

Comparing the size of a voice to the size of a sweet spot to determine if this larger dispersion is accurate is not the best example.   In a proper image, it should sound exactly like a voice, a real person singing from one spot.  The sound of the room in the recording, or the instruments surrounding the voice- that could be placed around the voice as the band is arranged by the mixer or placed as the real event if recorded live, these additional elements would give you the clue how large your sweet spot is.  If everything is down to a tiny point and voices instruments all appear to be coming form one small spot in space between the speakers, that is not correct.  That's what mono sounds like with two speakers. 

 

I agree with this - but not about the mono. There is no "one small spot in space between the speakers"; the presentation is just as rich and full as for true stereo material, and the apparent location tracks one's location laterally, with respect to the speakers.

 

Of course, the replay has to be of a high order for this to happen - which is usually what one doesn't have ... .

[STC]

9 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

Comparing the size of a voice to the size of a sweet spot to determine if this larger dispersion is accurate is not the best example.   In a proper image, it should sound exactly like a voice, a real person singing from one spot.  The sound of the room in the recording, or the instruments surrounding the voice- that could be placed around the voice as the band is arranged by the mixer or placed as the real event if recorded live, these additional elements would give you the clue how large your sweet spot is.  If everything is down to a tiny point and voices instruments all appear to be coming form one small spot in space between the speakers, that is not correct.  That's what mono sounds like with two speakers.  Thats what a tiny sweet spot and poor speaker dispersion will do.  A wide dispersion speaker placed well in a reasonable acoustic space gives the playback listener a sense of a single voice in the middle of a larger band- all elements spread out with their own space, with the drums there, the bass over there and the guitar over there.  Patricia Barber live shows in NY recorded by Jim Anderson give you that if you have a nice system.   

 

Now to be fair, recreating the complete width of the band in the real recording space is not easily possible with a stereo, as the band could be spread out across a large distance as an orchestra is spread out across a stage.  For this we need more speakers spread wide in a  larger space PLUS additional mix channels - and that brings us to the next level of production: : immersive.  Object based mixing is happening for music (the underpinning of Dolby ATMOS or DTS X), I've already attended a mix session or two in LA that were mind blowing.   Very exciting stuff!

 

Brad

 

All my life, I have always strived for the realistic reproduction of the music that would match live unamplified sound as close as possible in terms of size of the stage, instruments and vocals. It is the very basics of good speaker's design. And I happy to able to enjoy the accuracy of size and with the freedom of head movement even swaying to left and right still could hold the phantom image fixed.

 

Obviously, we are on a different wavelength as far as the definition of sweet spot is concerned. A sweet spot is a point where the listener is placed so that the true spatial image emerges. A wider definition used by audiophiles is a place where the sound is as good as sitting in the mid point of the two speakers without consideration for accurate imaging, placement or the size of instrument/vocal. 

 

Quote

Now to be fair, recreating the complete width of the band in the real recording space is not easily possible with a stereo...

 

That's what I do with stereo.  or multi channel.

[HIFI]

10 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

Comparing the size of a voice to the size of a sweet spot to determine if this larger dispersion is accurate is not the best example.   In a proper image, it should sound exactly like a voice, a real person singing from one spot.  The sound of the room in the recording, or the instruments surrounding the voice- that could be placed around the voice as the band is arranged by the mixer or placed as the real event if recorded live, these additional elements would give you the clue how large your sweet spot is.  If everything is down to a tiny point and voices instruments all appear to be coming form one small spot in space between the speakers, that is not correct.  That's what mono sounds like with two speakers.  Thats what a tiny sweet spot and poor speaker dispersion will do.  A wide dispersion speaker placed well in a reasonable acoustic space gives the playback listener a sense of a single voice in the middle of a larger band- all elements spread out with their own space, with the drums there, the bass over there and the guitar over there.  

 

I want to clarify or ask for your clarification....

 

 When I refer to the “sweet spot “ I am speaking of my listening seat.  I am not talking about how sweet the speaker is playing back in a room. 

 

Please respond Brad and thank you.

[HIFI]

I want to be very careful as to not come off snobby.  So work with me.

 

I once heard someone describing , in an analogy, how they set up their Two Channel audio system.  They referenced a photographer using an SLR camera, focusing in, taking a sharp image.  He compared slight turns, back and forth, of the lens as the image became true to that of moving the listening seat and speakers in one inch then half inch then quarter inch movements to dial in the magic of Two Channel audio.  Doesn’t everyone, to some degree, or all, care for their speaker set up in the same way?  With that said . . . What change would you dare make if you took your ears off axis or to a different room for a listening evaluation?  I think none. 

 

 

 

 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

13 hours ago, HIFI said:

 

I want to clarify or ask for your clarification....

 

 When I refer to the “sweet spot “ I am speaking of my listening seat.  I am not talking about how sweet the speaker is playing back in a room. 

 

Please respond Brad and thank you.

 

When I say "sweet spot" i am referring to the area within a room where the image is intact and the sound quality is at it highest level.   Or, where the speakers sound proper.  

 

Brad

[HIFI]

14 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

When I say "sweet spot" i am referring to the area within a room where the image is intact and the sound quality is at it highest level.   Or, where the speakers sound proper.  

 

Brad

So.... not the seated spot? The listening chair as I define sweet spot.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

14 hours ago, STC said:

 

All my life, I have always strived for the realistic reproduction of the music that would match live unamplified sound as close as possible in terms of size of the stage, instruments and vocals. It is the very basics of good speaker's design. And I happy to able to enjoy the accuracy of size and with the freedom of head movement even swaying to left and right still could hold the phantom image fixed.

 

Obviously, we are on a different wavelength as far as the definition of sweet spot is concerned. A sweet spot is a point where the listener is placed so that the true spatial image emerges. A wider definition used by audiophiles is a place where the sound is as good as sitting in the mid point of the two speakers without consideration for accurate imaging, placement or the size of instrument/vocal. 

 

 

That's what I do with stereo.  or multi channel.

 I don't think "sweet spot" has a specific or universally defined value for all.  It's a descriptive term adopted by a lot of folks for a wide range of applications even beyond audio.  Sweet spot has a meaning in projection video and many other video forms. 

 

 Having been in loudspeaker manufacturing for a long time, I can tell you that they call the sweet spot where both the image and sound quality are at their peak- directly related to dispersion.  This  "spot" is obviously greatly influenced by the room the speakers are in.  So most engineering based loudspeaker companies do technical measurements of speaker/driver horizontal dispersion at multiple frequencies and vertical dispersion at the same multiple frequencies.  These measurements  must take place in a boundary free environment, or as close as they can get (JBL's rooftop half space measurements).  Once you understand the behavior of a given device you've measured in a boundary free location, it's much easier to predict behavior in the intended environment, like a living room or a recording studio.  The microphone used (just one) for measurement must be calibrated to its preamp and measuring device and the combo be dead flat across the measurement band and beyond.  Otherwise errors in the microphone/mic preamp/measuring device look like errors in the speaker response.  Same with anechoic chambers, they aren't good down low unless they have a very large dimension and measurements down below the useable limit of the chamber are misleading.  Almost no speaker manufacturers have access to extremely large chambers and most have no access to a chamber at all.

 

A lot of time is invested by the industry both pro and consumer in "the sweet spot".

Brad

 

                

[Lone Mountain Audio]

4 minutes ago, HIFI said:

So.... not the seated spot? The listening chair as I define sweet spot.

 

No, its not a spot where you are, it's where the speakers sound their best, image and response. If that's your seated spot then Hooray!  You win the grand prize!

Brad 

[STC]

27 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Having been in loudspeaker manufacturing for a long time, I can tell you that they call the sweet spot where both the image and sound quality are at their peak- directly related to dispersion.

 

26 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

are, it's where the speakers sound their best, image and response. If that's your seated spot then Hooray!

 

In a reflection free environment where do you think the sweet spot will be for wide dispersion speakers?

[HIFI]

22 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

No, its not a spot where you are, it's where the speakers sound their best, image and response. If that's your seated spot then Hooray!  You win the grand prize!

Brad 

Ok.... I’m glad I have this clarification.

 

In all my years of audio the “sweet spot” has been a reference to the listening position.  What I listen to is not a spot.  It’s a grande illusion of width, height, depth, space.

 

 

[HIFI]

17 minutes ago, STC said:

 

 

In a reflection free environment where do you think the sweet spot will be for wide dispersion speakers?

Be sure to define sweet spot before answering question 

 

Is this a trick question STC?  I ask because a reflection free environment is “open field”.  Who’s doing Hifi like that?