How to listen to speakers?

[fas42]

Subjectively, it should "all sound the same" - whether dead centre, or well outside the "right" listening area. As an example, a sonata being played on a piano: between the speakers, the instrument just happens to be directly in front of you; anywhere else in the room, the piano is "over there", behind the plane of the speakers, in the same position. Going anywhere else in the house, that very same, 'real' piano is being played.

 

IOW, what you hear should exactly correspond to what you would hear as you moved around, as if live musicians were making the sounds.

[Ralf11]

Ribbons, people.  Ribbons.

[AudioDoctor]

I don't know about other people, but I usually use my ears...

[Ralf11]

what, no bone conduction?

[AudioDoctor]

45 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

what, no bone conduction?

 

With my Sub, that may just be how I get the bass notes.

[Ralf11]

how about one of those wearable backpack bass-thumper things?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=DWCqQWn-2Kc

 

Really meant to be worn by neurosurgeons, butt...

[AudioDoctor]

I be that will help them keep steady and ensure they maintain fine precise control over their movements.

[Ralf11]

maybe better than the heavy metal some guys listen to in the OR

 

... or their jokes

[AudioDoctor]

I don't know any Surgeons that listen to Heavy Metal, do you? I know a lot that listen to Classical while operating though.

[Ralf11]

Yes - some of the younger punks do.

 

Same guys are said to be "staple happy"...

[AudioDoctor]

Wow, that seems a bit counterproductive, but what do I know, I am not a neurosurgeon.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

Since science shows us transducer dispersion narrows with increasing frequency (ribbons, horns, cones, planars)  the speaker designer tries to provide a wider listening area and expand the triangle.  Few can sit in a single spot sue to furniture or other reasons (a mix engineer moving back and forth across a console).  The better the off axis response the more stable the image is.  Off axis response also affects what the reflection content is, so the more the reflection content remains consistent with on axis content, the better the image.  So checking response of a speaker off axis is certainly one important aspect of an ideal speaker.  

 

Even a wide dispersion speaker is affected by reflections (ceilings, floor, walls) and can fool you into thinking its the speaker when in reality its the room.  So the other technique to evaluate a speaker is to listen to it in a very large space with boundaries as far away as possible, so reflections are minimized and the boundaries in your listening space are removed.   Now you can hear your speaker with much fewer reflections and off axis tests are pretty clear and realistic.  For us at home, taking a speaker outside to the driveway or back yard is a good way to accomplish this.   If the off axis is good, the speaker will likely image well over a larger area.  If it is not good, getting a great image will be difficult, even on axis when returned to a room with real reflections.  

 

Brad.  

[semente]

3 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Off axis response also affects what the reflection content is, so the more the reflection content remains consistent with on axis content, the better the image.

 

Although the less reflections,  the sharper the image.

For this you need narrow dispersion.

Stereo is a single user experience anyway, might as well make as good as possible.

[semente]

On 9/3/2018 at 8:05 PM, Cornan said:

Well, that’s a very strange question is’nt it? During my +30 years in this hobby I have always concentrated my efforts to hear bass notes, dynamics, treble, air, fatigue, natural sound, textures, 3D, 4D etc in dead center of the speakers. Just because that’s how it is and that is how it should be. Or is it? 

During my latest +10 years I have had a sneaking feeling that good sound is easiest to hear from for example the kitchen when playing music in the audio corner and not in the dead center between the speakers and with my ears in the perfect height. For me it is much easier to evaluate good sound from way outside that triangle than it is inside of it. Why? I have no dea! That’s why I started this thread. To see if there is anyone else that recognize this as well and if someone possibly knows the answer to why this is. Or is it only me and my imagination! ?

 

Don’t get me wrong. The SQ always gets better in the dead center of the speakers, but the evaluation process is just easier to determine outside the triangle.

 

Since this is an honest question I would appreciate honest replies! ?

 

 

I find this very strange. Listening from the other room completely ignores imaging. And if it sounds realistic in the listening spot then it cannot sound good in the kitchen, and vice-versa.

I smell trouble... Too much uper-mids and lower-treble? Grainy treble? No lower-bass?

[HIFI]

And . . . I can’t imagine any listening test that doesn’t include actually listening to the speakers with at least a decent placement or superior placement in a treated room.

 

listen to a system from another room.... I see no value

[Ralf11]

On 12/25/2018 at 1:05 PM, AudioDoctor said:

Wow, that seems a bit counterproductive, but what do I know, I am not a neurosurgeon.

 

I meant orthopods and general surgeons (up to a 3 star general)

 

 

 

OT... IMO, you have to listen to a selection of speakers in your own listening room - this can obviously be laborious (esp. if you take a few months switching back & forth, as I did between Maggies & Vandies once upon a time in the West)

 

So, one has to come up with a small group using other means to narrow the choices

[HIFI]

5 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Since science shows us transducer dispersion narrows with increasing frequency (ribbons, horns, cones, planars)  the speaker designer tries to provide a wider listening area and expand the triangle.  Few can sit in a single spot sue to furniture or other reasons (a mix engineer moving back and forth across a console).  The better the off axis response the more stable the image is.  Off axis response also affects what the reflection content is, so the more the reflection content remains consistent with on axis content, the better the image.  So checking response of a speaker off axis is certainly one important aspect of an ideal speaker.  

 

Even a wide dispersion speaker is affected by reflections (ceilings, floor, walls) and can fool you into thinking its the speaker when in reality its the room.  So the other technique to evaluate a speaker is to listen to it in a very large space with boundaries as far away as possible, so reflections are minimized and the boundaries in your listening space are removed.   Now you can hear your speaker with much fewer reflections and off axis tests are pretty clear and realistic.  For us at home, taking a speaker outside to the driveway or back yard is a good way to accomplish this.   If the off axis is good, the speaker will likely image well over a larger area.  If it is not good, getting a great image will be difficult, even on axis when returned to a room with real reflections.  

 

Brad.  

I read through your reply and I want to get your thought on sweet spot listening....

 

I think you are saying that better off axis dispersion can lead to off axis imaging.  I am always wondering if this is truly possible in Two Channel audio and is it worth listening to.

 

I know I have listened to some well set up systems with truly remarkable gear.  One system included YG best speakers with Dartzeel pre and power.  Also a treated room that was designed from the ground up.  The room was remarkable!!!

 

So I’m thinking as my ears move lateral, off access, I am now experiencing a greater output from one speaker as the other .... unless .... and only.... the speakers have a superior linear on and off access output.   Is there such a speaker?  And even if there is that perfect pair of speakers room boundaries are in play more so and timing ,reflections, would likely have more detriment on off access imaging.

 

With my experience I find a decent pair of speakers have a better opportunity for a broader sweet spot in a larger room.  But I still feel timing is everything and the sweet spot is not much more than one seat wide.

 

Thank you for your insight 

 

 

 

 

[fas42]

4 hours ago, HIFI said:

And . . . I can’t imagine any listening test that doesn’t include actually listening to the speakers with at least a decent placement or superior placement in a treated room.

 

listen to a system from another room.... I see no value

 

The answer is that a competent rig sounds good everywhere - from the other end of the house, or in the "perfect" listening room, smack bang in the "sweet spot". All you have to do is relate it to is how live musicians would sound, playing in a particular room, while you moved through the house, being aware of the sound, including being only feet away from them. Whether a classical piano sonata, or a driving rock band rehearsing the experience should always have the impact and intensity that live music delivers - no matter where you're placed in relation to the sound generation.

 

So, testing a setup by listening from different places is a good way to confirm the qualities ...

[HIFI]

45 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The answer is that a competent rig sounds good everywhere - from the other end of the house, or in the "perfect" listening room, smack bang in the "sweet spot". All you have to do is relate it to is how live musicians would sound, playing in a particular room, while you moved through the house, being aware of the sound, including being only feet away from them. Whether a classical piano sonata, or a driving rock band rehearsing the experience should always have the impact and intensity that live music delivers - no matter where you're placed in relation to the sound generation.

 

So, testing a setup by listening from different places is a good way to confirm the qualities ...

Frank..... I did not ask a question.  I stated my opinion.  It was in reference to “ How To Listen To Speakers”.  It had nothing to do with background music listening styles.

 

I also feel like you are correcting me as if I’m wrong in my opinion.  Once again you are restating much of the same wordology that is common in all your entries so you are, once again, offering nothing helpful.

 

You and I can agree on almost nothing.  I can’t take you seriously about anything. Your reference system is a pair of boom box sharp speakers hard wired with solder to an amplifier. You have convinced yourself that you are the only one who could enjoy this hobby and almost everyone is else involved  in hobby , including manufacturers are wrong.  You also have nothing nice to say about any other quality equipment that is discussed on this forum. Your statement is always a cut and past .  .  . needs some serious tweaking or the speakers are unlistenable, blablablablabla.

 

Frank.... loosen the laces on your earth shoes.

 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

3 hours ago, HIFI said:

I read through your reply and I want to get your thought on sweet spot listening....

 

I think you are saying that better off axis dispersion can lead to off axis imaging.  I am always wondering if this is truly possible in Two Channel audio and is it worth listening to.

 

I know I have listened to some well set up systems with truly remarkable gear.  One system included YG best speakers with Dartzeel pre and power.  Also a treated room that was designed from the ground up.  The room was remarkable!!!

 

So I’m thinking as my ears move lateral, off access, I am now experiencing a greater output from one speaker as the other .... unless .... and only.... the speakers have a superior linear on and off access output.   Is there such a speaker?  And even if there is that perfect pair of speakers room boundaries are in play more so and timing ,reflections, would likely have more detriment on off access imaging.

 

With my experience I find a decent pair of speakers have a better opportunity for a broader sweet spot in a larger room.  But I still feel timing is everything and the sweet spot is not much more than one seat wide.

 

Thank you for your insight 

 

Nice of you to say "insight" but truthfully its just a lifetime of trial and error and engineers who design speakers teaching me the physics of it all.

 

So to try again at this....Many speaker engineers say that to have a larger listening area (ie. expanded sweet spot)you must widen dispersion and have it roll off consistently with angle (the off axis response is more similar to the on axis response).  That is why with old horn systems (say the klipsch la scalas I owned long ago) the narrowing dispersion of HF by the horn makes the sweet spot quite small.  You cannot fix that, unless you redesign the horn itself.  The sweet spot of these old horns may be just a few degrees wide at 10K, and if you sit in the triangle, its okay if you are precisely in the right spot;  if you move just a little in either direction, you can hear the HF greatly reduce.  

 

For a wider sweet spot you need transducers that have a wider dispersion by nature and less narrowing behaviors.  This is why domes where developed, as this dome shape helps reduce narrowing with frequency.  The company I work with developed a mid dome, for the same reason.    The purpose of that is say in a scoring studio, where there is a  very wide mixing console and you have a lot of people all moving around left to right doing their jobs.  They all need to hear the exact same content if possible, so they can judge if something needs to be fixed or not. Having perfect image is not critical here, having consistent content over a wide area is.

 

Eventually in our living rooms the off axis information (reflections now) gets summed with the on axis (straight line, transducer output to our ears).  Anything out of of phase causes a cancelation.  The off axis is bouncing all over the place, it takes a longer path and is therefore shifting in phase compared to the untouched on axis content.   We can use absorption to reduce the level of all this off axis bouncing reflection information and this can help.  This is why people say you should use absorption at the "first reflection points"- that first reflection is in some ways the most important one.  But you cannot absorb all the reflections as it bounces/echoes all over the room, hitting the floor and the ceiling and the cabinet in the corner and the bookshelves PLUS the walls.  Since all this off axis reflection content is the stuff that messes things up,  its super important to any listener to try and reduce that differing off axis info to improve things.  

 

If this off axis content is different in frequency response from the on axis info, the phase cancellations that happen when the two eventually sum together can really screw up sonics.   It can not only destroy an image it can completely change the sound of your speakers at your listening position.  People bring speakers back to dealers over this, insisting "they suck in my room".  The speakers may not suck on axis, but because the reflections are so strong in a highly reflective room, the off axis content is so different from the direct sound ( on axis sound) the sum of on and off axis sounds awful to you.  The cancellations are not similar to the on axis info and therefore change the sum greatly.    

 

With well designed domes, the dispersion area is wider (sweet spot is wider) and therefore we have more of the content we want and less of the off axis content we don't want.  If it the dispersion was perfect, covered out entire listing area, the reflections are the same as the on axis info and these (out of phase) reflections are pretty much the same as the on axis info.  This would greatly help image and keep the speaker sounding like it's supposed to.  Differing off axis response creates different room reflections which are the enemy to good sound and image.  So the two issues are linked: a wider sweet spot (meaning wider dispersion) would usually mean a bigger image and the less the speaker will sound "different" room to room.  

 

I am over simplifying a very complex subject, but does any of that make sense? 

. 

Brad

[STC]

In stereo, the sweet spot is where the best place the stereo illusion takes place. That can happen only when you are placed exactly in the centre between the two loudspeakers. The only way for you to extend this spot is by using DSP where you can control the level and timing of the speakers at off centre position. A wide dispersion speaker, can sound better off centre just like a mono speaker but it cannot give you the stereo perception unless you use DSP or complex drivers arrangement from the opposite speaker aiming at the off centre listener. 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, HIFI said:

Frank..... I did not ask a question.  I stated my opinion.  It was in reference to “ How To Listen To Speakers”.  It had nothing to do with background music listening styles.

 

"Background music listening style" ? IOW, when you listen to live musicians you need to sit in a very precise position with respect to them, in order for it to be musically satisfying ... interesting perspective to have ...

 

Strangely enough, I prefer to be able sit in one place, or alternatively move around to my heart's content, while still keenly listening - and to be able to enjoy both 'modes' equally. To only get the best results while locked in a dentist's chair may be an interesting pastime for some, but doesn't do a thing for me .

 

Quote

 

I also feel like you are correcting me as if I’m wrong in my opinion.  Once again you are restating much of the same wordology that is common in all your entries so you are, once again, offering nothing helpful.

 

No-one's "wrong" if it's a hobby - but I will 'correct' if people state or imply that their take on things are the only possible options ...

 

Quote

You and I can agree on almost nothing.  I can’t take you seriously about anything. Your reference system is a pair of boom box sharp speakers hard wired with solder to an amplifier. You have convinced yourself that you are the only one who could enjoy this hobby and almost everyone is else involved  in hobby , including manufacturers are wrong.  You also have nothing nice to say about any other quality equipment that is discussed on this forum. Your statement is always a cut and past .  .  . needs some serious tweaking or the speakers are unlistenable, blablablablabla.

 

 

I have never had a reference system. Ever. My system 30 years ago was the most 'correct audiophile' setup I have had - but it had a set of problems which got in the way of best audio replay, which I had to keep working on. And so I see every rig, no matter how incredibly pricey it is, or cheap, as merely raw materials to use, to evolve towards a competent playback system - it is almost impossible to buy something from the showroom floor that gets all the key things right ... it was bad 30 years ago, and currently it is still not quite there.

 

Yes, the manufacturers are usually wrong - they are focused on creating product, to keep the bottom line happening; very few have the big picture in sharp focus.

 

Quality equipment is good - but is almost never organised as a fully fault free system that delivers the full potential of what's in it ... in most other industries you would be laughed at if you suggested you could just slap together "premium quality" bits and pieces, and this would automatically create a peak performing system, with no extra input required.

 

I say very positive things about a rig that gets the important things right - but I'm not interested in efforts that are about bling, or money, or ego.

[fas42]

49 minutes ago, STC said:

In stereo, the sweet spot is where the best place the stereo illusion takes place. That can happen only when you are placed exactly in the centre between the two loudspeakers. The only way for you to extend this spot is by using DSP where you can control the level and timing of the speakers at off centre position. A wide dispersion speaker, can sound better off centre just like a mono speaker but it cannot give you the stereo perception unless you use DSP or complex drivers arrangement from the opposite speaker aiming at the off centre listener. 

 

You see, here's an example: ST bluntly states, and puts forward some supporting material, that an illusion "can happen only when you are placed exactly in the centre between the two loudspeakers". Well, I for one know this is BS, because it happened otherwise for me 35 years ago. So, I will keep posting a contrary POV; so that others don't need to feel that this take is the truth, and the only truth.

[HIFI]

59 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

 

With well designed domes, the dispersion area is wider (sweet spot is wider) and therefore we have more of the content we want and less of the off axis content we don't want.  If it the dispersion was perfect, covered out entire listing area, the reflections are the same as the on axis info and these (out of phase) reflections are pretty much the same as the on axis info.  This would greatly help image and keep the speaker sounding like it's supposed to.  Differing off axis response creates different room reflections which are the enemy to good sound and image.  So the two issues are linked: a wider sweet spot (meaning wider dispersion) would usually mean a bigger image and the less the speaker will sound "different" room to room.  

 

I am over simplifying a very complex subject, but does any of that make sense? 

. 

Brad

I am somewhat comfortable understanding most of your reply.

 

We both agree that addressing reflection issues in the listening room is important to image presentation.   I will “oversimplify” and call this just another timing issue. . . And not a good one.

 

In your reply you said “If it the dispersion was perfect, covered out entire listing area, the reflections are the same as the on axis info and these (out of phase) reflections are pretty much the same as the on axis info”.  You still have reflected information reaching your listening spot(s) at different times as direct on axis info.  So I’m not sure if that is why a sweet spot has width.

 

So . . . Let’s advance and say you have a treated room that addressed first reflections for your speakers.  My thought is there is one sweet spot with some degree of lateral movement.  I would also think that “lateral movement “ is going to vary from brand/quality/design of speakers.  So let’s pick your brand or my brand or whatever.  I am sitting in perfect image presentation....I move lateral and at some point timing will come into play.  My listening spot is closer to one speaker than the other ....I will loose the finely focused image that allowed me to “acoustically “ see instruments in their space.  Certainly I will still hear those instruments but the definition and detailed space around instruments will diminish. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[STC]

15 minutes ago, fas42 said:

because it happened otherwise for me 35 years ago.

 

Be glad that it only happened once in 35 years, otherwise it would warrant a mandatory check in.