Allo Digione Signature

[RX8R3ROD]

IME the Signature is a fabulous product, and a most worthwhile improvement on the standard Digione (which is IMHO an excellent product, and a clear step up on the already excellent hifiberry).

 

I’m still experimenting with power, but in my system I have found the power to the Pi does make a difference to the sound, and it’s seemingly worth paying at least some attaention to the Pi supply (such as an iFi dc iPurifier, as an example) in conjunction with the Allo 5v 3a supply.

 

Of course, the difference may not be caused by the power coming into the Pi, but how the noise emitted from the Pi is addressed, etc. ... and as individual systems vary YMMV.

 

But in my system it’s there, and you may also find it worth experimenting.?

 

 

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi, thanks for clarifying. ??

 

I should probably have mentioned I am running 2 (currently Allo SMPS > ifi dc iPurifier to Pi, ifi iPower > ifi Nano USB 3.0 to Signature) to avoid any confusion and really helpful to know that using just 1 supply would defeat the galvanic isolation.

 

I had one question on the use of a battery supply. The 18650 Lipo batteries are  (I think?) ~3.7v so I believe that’s ~7.4 v when using two of them?

 

Is that ok to run into the Signature, or does it need to be reduced to 5v or thereabouts?

[RX8R3ROD]

Cheers! I was hoping you might say that. ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Just to check, are you using two power supplies, one to the RPI input on the Signature and the other to the ‘Clean Power’ input on the Signature?

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi Olklie I just wondered if you had a voltmeter handy, to measure what’s coming out of the Allo SMPS and battery? If you do, that might be a place to start?

[RX8R3ROD]

I have compared battery power to an iFi iPower into a iFi Nano usb 3.0, which is measured to produce < 0.05uv noise, and the Nano apparently has excellent regulation. This is into the clean side of the Signature.

 

This stuff is driven from a Nordost Thor which is itself driven from a mains regenerator, via Nordost mains leads.

 

So noise should be loooow.

 

It doesn’t sound quite as good as the battery (2 x Samsung 3000 mAh 18650’s) power, though.

 

However I tried this previously from a power bank 5v output, and it sounded pretty rubbish from that.

 

So the type of battery and it’s connection clearly makes quite a difference; or at least it did in my system.

 

 

 

[RX8R3ROD]

The iPower certainly generates some contrary views.

 

I’ve seen measurements at 1 and 2 amps (more or less ideal for the Pi) demonstrating <1uv noise and 12uv ripple, which seems pretty good to me, and then others like the ones you have quoted.

 

I guess measurement methodology, conditions and equipment can all play a part in this, as well as what is and what is not measured (or at least reported)?

 

The iPower is clearly not perfect, as if it was the sound wouldn’t be very much improved by the addition of other devices, but mine certainly are. Nano and DC iPurifier both make a significant (to me) improvement.

 

I’ve also found separating the iPower from the main system power feed to be important, which (I think) supports what you’ve sad about it feeding crud back into the mains? But used intelligently, it seems it can also do a pretty decent job.

 

I do very much look forward to seeing how the Nirvana (as an ex Linnie of ‘a certain age’ I always want to call it the Valhalla) measures and - more importantly - what it sounds like in my system.?

[RX8R3ROD]

Ah yes, I had that little problem with the case, too.

 

It’s interesting how experiences vary, which I guess is what makes Hi-Fi both so interesting and frustrating!

 

How are you powering the Signature?

 

FWIW my experience is this makes a really big difference, and it’s important on both the clean and dirty sides.

 

My Sig worked from the get-go for me, and was as big a jump as the Digione was over the HIFiBerry (itself a great product) but I found those differences mostly in what was most important to me ... PRaT, and sounds not modulating other sounds.

 

But it really started to sing like a canary for me in my system when I got to something like an iFi iPower with Swenson dc grounding mod (the mod sounds very grand, but only costs 50p) for the dirty side, and batteries for the clean side.

 

I’ve worked quite hard on powering it, and with some further mods to the power side of things it sounds sensational.

 

Your system does sound like it has a high degree of resolution, so it might be worth a bit of experimentation?

 

Though that clearly doesn’t make the case fit ...

[RX8R3ROD]

? ... I hold my hand up and say, as an idiot who doesn’t read instructions, I didn’t read the instructions. So I just left one side off the case - Doh! I’ll claim it was a cooling modification ... ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi, I measured mine at around 4 volts or just below when fully freshly charged, and they didn’t seem to do any harm as a pair, nor when I tried 4 of them into the clean side in the Allo battery pack, so I imagine you’d be fine.

 

Hope you enjoy them, I think you’ll find them a pleasant experience ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Burmar enjoy ?, and do let us all know how you find 18650 battery power, if you get the chance! ??

 

SparkSpark, great to hear that you’re getting improvements by optimising the power supplies, too! I must admit with my case everything fitted just fine except for the ‘back’ because I hadn’t read the instructions (Doh!), but yours looks much more challenging ... ? Hope you can get that sorted. ?

[RX8R3ROD]

That’s great to hear. ??

 

I must admit I have both clean and dirty sides powered from a mains filter box, and I sometimes just turn it on and off, so that turns both on and off together ... and all seems to work ok (so far, anyway?).

 

I do share your thought that the usb c connectors perhaps look a little fragile, though I guess that once the question of what compromises optimum power is more or less settled they probably don’t get too much pushing and pulling after that? 

 

But I have nevertheless dressed my power cables to try and minimise strain on the connectors.

 

Look forward to hearing how you find the batteries in your tests ?

[RX8R3ROD]

Really pleased the batteries work for you! ?

 

They sound great, don’t they? 

 

And yes, didn’t they do a great job with this little hat!! ??????

[RX8R3ROD]

Unfortunately I’m not sure exactly how long, as it will depend on your specific 18650’s and their MAh rating, which seems to vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I believe I read somewhere the Signature draws ~65 mAh (say 100 to be on the safe side) and if your batteries are 2,500 - 3,000 mAh capacity, that’s quite a few hours listening if you remember to disconnect your battery supply when you’re finished listening.

[RX8R3ROD]

Sounds good to me. I suspect some batteries might be a bit more optimistically labelled than others, and so might not quite deliver their full promise, but even so you still get a pretty decent playing time. ??

 

I bought a charger from Amazon (where else, I guess ?) for about £25 that seems to charge a pair of batteries up pretty quickly, and claims to have all the fault protection stuff in built, which seemed like a pretty good deal.

 

BTW, based on my experience (but not verified in other systems, so this is a sample of one using my system and my good / bad / average electricity supply, mains cabling, etc.) you can go quite a significant step beyond even battery power using an iFi iPower (I used a 12V model) and then regulating that using a linear voltage regulator to 5v. When the LVR circuit is fronted by a 1F Supercapacitor and fed into the clean side, the results are (IME) spectacular.

 

My other half, who is rightly fairly cynical about a lot of Hi-Fi lore and ‘upgrades’, said she could hear the improvement immediately, and her foot started tapping to songs she normally wouldn’t enjoy.

 

You can, I think, summarise it by saying it makes the timing much better. For example subtle drum patterns become much more apparent (or hitherto seeming random drum beats or brushes or maracas / etc now appear as part of a distinct pattern) and keep the rhythm even when the going gets loud. For example, on Texas’ “I don’t want a lover” the drum beats with reverb are so much clearer in a ‘skin strike, drum body resonates, decay’ sense, and really drive the song along, and keep on doing so when the guitars, synths, etc all crash in. I’ve heard this on many systems, some costing a great deal of money, and few that I’ve heard can manage this to the same degree as the Signature powered as described. ??

 

The Signature can just seemingly keep on giving more and more performance!! ?

[RX8R3ROD]

I would say that using a 5v iPower to power the clean side isn’t as good as 18650 batteries.

 

I have tried powering the clean side using a 5 v iPower, a 9v iPower plus an iFi Nano USB 3.0 (which gives 5v out at <0.5uV noise ), and a 9v iPower plus iFi DC iPurifier 2 plus Nano USB 3.0. All of these with the Swenson dc grounding mod. None of these IME were better than batteries on the clean side. The iPower options always sounded a bit too lightweight and ‘hazy’ timing-wise to me in comparison to batteries, and allowed louder sounds to modulate quieter ones.

 

I now use the last setup described above on the dirty side, where it does IME improve significantly on the Allo SMPS.

 

However, a 12V iPower regulated to 5V via an LDO and using some nice audio grade caps, and fronted by a sizeable supercapacitor (just compare it to the total capacitance inside your power amp ?) in my system (with my power supply, etc, and YMMV) really improves on the battery supply ... and you know how good that is ?

 

But as I mentioned, this is a sample of 1, I am very sensitive to timing in music playback (and I’m pretty sure not everyone finds it as important) and not all systems may necessarily respond similarly to mine.

[RX8R3ROD]

I would be inclined to agree with that sentiment, though I know they are a bit of a pain to recharge compared with a power bank

[RX8R3ROD]

1 hour ago, SparkSpark said:

So what batteries/set up are you using for the clean side?

I have used Samsung 18650 3000 mah batteries in both 2x and 4x combination (the latter using Allo’s battery power pack) for the clean side and it can give great results. The 4-battery setup seemed to me to sound better than the 2-battery setup.

[RX8R3ROD]

This is the one I got from Amazon.

 

If you search for DSD TECH 18650 Battery Holder with built-in 2 slots for Arduino and DIY it’s on Prime, so you can get it nice and quick (basically why I bought it ... ?)

 

Hope that helps?

[RX8R3ROD]

???

[RX8R3ROD]

There seems to be 3 or 4 mm between the negative end of the battery and the case, and the spring can compress some more (I tried it) so it might fit with the  ‘extrusion positive’ battery, but it would be tight. Sorry I can’t be more definitive ...

[RX8R3ROD]

A bit more on power supplies for the fab Signature.

 

I am getting excellent results (IME, in my system, and with my electricity supply a significant improvement on batteries, which themselves are already excellent) with a 12v iFi iPower regulated to 5v.

 

Experience now suggests a couple of 9v supercapacitors in series work extremely well on the input to the regulator (better, anyway, than Oscons, either singular or in various parallel combinations), where the PRaT elements and non-modulation across instruments and voices really do rock.

 

Interestingly, though, an LT7805 is so far the best-sounding regulator, easily besting an LT3405; somewhat against my expectations and relative pricing of the products.

 

Just goes to to show the old adage that whilst measurements are important to learn from, it’s what it sounds like that ultimately matters. ?

 

If you want to get even more from your Signature than you may be getting now (hard to imagine, I know ?), I can very much recommend this route and IME it’s well worth a bit of experimentation.

 

I await the Allo supply for the Signature with some interest! ??

[RX8R3ROD]

Hi nbpf,

 

All the chopping and changing around connectors is kind of frustrating, isn’t it? ?One hopes that USB C is the end of the changes (across many product lines) for a loooong time, but somehow one suspects it probably won’t be ...

 

Still, on the upside, it is at least always the right way round ? 

 

I’m not familiar with the JS-2 power supply in detail, but with Uptone’s reputation one would think it very safe to assume that if they state ‘2 rails’ both would be very tightly regulated and highly filtered with top quality components (unlike some LPS’s, I believe), so you shouldn’t experience the potential issues of a Y cable feeding crud into the clean side of the Signature.

 

 

[RX8R3ROD]

Have to say, it does look like a really fab bit of kit, doesn’t it? ??

[RX8R3ROD]

16 hours ago, Emcee said:

I have the DigiOne (not signature) being fed by a Paul Hynes SR-4 (clean side) and a CIAudio (RPI side). I'm thinking about ordering the Signature version. Anyhow my question is: where exactly did you install the LT7805, in the external power supply or on the DigiOne itself?

Currently it’s installed on a breadboard between the external power supply (iPower) and the Signature, as in the attached photo (shows a couple of versions for the Signature, and th3 middle one is for the MiniDSP DIRAC room correction box, where it also makes a worthwhile, albeit smaller, difference)

 

The final versions will be in the ubiquitous aluminium-fronted box, though still in the same place in the system.

 

It would be v interesting to see if this is beneficial fronted by an LPS.

 

I tried it as in many ways the 5v iPower has always sounded pretty good and seemingly measured extremely well to me, but it has also to me (in my system, with my electricity supply, Yada, Yada ...) always sounded a bit gutless. ?

 

Using a 12v iPower with a good helping of capacitance and further regulating it to 5v has totally cured that. I can’t fully explain why (suspect in part it’s lack of spare energy storage in the iPower, but that’s a baseless theory just now) so am upgrading my rudimentary oscilloscope to try and find out a bit more about why.

 

If you try it it’d be very interesting to hear your experiences.