Considering Multichannel Audio System Options

[Evo-No-Revo]

I am figure out the best way to go about doing 5.1 multichannel music playback in a system that also does multichannel A/V playback.  I don't have a need to build out an audio system for Atmos, DTS:X, DTS Virtual:X or Auro-3D. Using 5.1 or possibly 7.1 is about as far as I care to venture into MC system.

 

I want to have a system that favors 5.1 and 2 channel music playback over the A/V playback.  I am first and foremost an audiophile and not much of a videophile but I do watch movies on the same system.  I don't have a 4k TV and until my 2011 Panasonic plasma dies won't be getting one. 

 

Last week I sold off my 4 month old Lyngdorf MP-50 A/V pre/pro with RoomPerfect.  I switched in my new Chord Qutest DAC into the system to test against the MP-50's internal DAC and it was profoundly better sounding doing 2 channel music.  I didn't like that the Lyngdorf didn't have analogue outs either. 

 

I have to admit that every time I try to kill off the audiophile tweaker in me by moving towards the theoretical one box solution, I end up losing money.  That has involved 3 x Devialet, 3 x Lyngdorf, 2 x Lumin and a set of Kii Three.  I want to simplify in theory but I find it painfully limiting. 

 

The idea of just getting a different pre/pro is tempting but if I can offload most the pre/pro functions to my HTPC then that is great.  But I still might need a pre/pro for some integration situations that I am not considering.  But I don't want to move towards more convenience at the detriment of SQ...to a point. 

 

Okay, enough rambling and on to specifics.  These are the pieces that are already part of the system recipe.

 

HTPC (JCAT USB and Network Cards) I mostly use ripped Blu Ray mkv files for video playback...plus some discs.

Plinius Odeon 2014 version 6 mono channel amp

JRiver MC24

Dirac Live Room Correction

Roon Labs

 

Possibilities for getting to 5.1.

 

exaSound e38 for MC USB playback.  (I would have to have a XLR version though.  No word yet on the possibility for a custom XLR version)  This is my preferred options in theory as of now.  Still waiting for exaSound to get back to me about custom XLR version.  They don't publish a phone number on their site either.

 

I wonder as far a SQ is concerned what something like a Theta Design Casablanca with their top Premium DACs (limited 24/192) installed using Toslink, Coax or HDMI (no USB) compares to the exaSound e38 USB playback? If the exaSound e38 SQ is something that is way better than the Casablanca for 5.1 or 2 channel then I can stop considering the pre/pro route for the DAC.  If something of that caliber is bested by the e38 that helps clarify the path.

 

I have been looking into older high end pre/pros as a possibility...(say 2012-2016). Like getting something that has better dac but not so up to date on the latest gaggle of loaded pre/pros out there.  I don't need room correction in a pre/pro because the HTPC will handle that.  Doesn't mean I wouldn't buy something that does have room correction and just use the HTPC Dirac Live. 

 

Other gear of interest to consider in different paths to 5.1 music and video playback.

 

Merging NADAC MC8  I really like this solution but not sure I want to spend the money...$7.5k used.  Is it really that nice of a DAC implementation other than Ravena?                                    

https://nadac.merging.com/product/merging-nadac   

 

Parasound P7   http://www.parasound.com/p7.php

 

Krell Foundation   http://www.krellonline.com/processors.html

 

Cary Audio Cinema 12      https://www.caryaudio.com/products/cinema-12/

Cary Audio Cinema 11a    https://www.caryaudio.com/product-support/cinema-11a/

 

Classe SSP-800  https://classeaudio.com/ssp-800/

 

This is what I am inclined to use:  Minus tweak gear...

HTPC (JRiver MC24 - Roon - Dirac Live)

exaSound e38 or possibly the Merging NADAC MC8.  Same thing theoretically.

Parasound P7

Plinius 6 channel amp

Oppo 203

 

With that setup, is there still a need for a pre/pro for convenience of using the system?  If there is, would something like an older Marantz pre/pro be useful? 

Can a pre/pro be utilized with above gear without being a detriment to SQ?  Does HT pass thru really work well?

 

What the most important question I have is how much better can the SQ of the exaSound e38 via USB be over the high end MC pre/pros out there for SQ in a 2 channel or 5.1 setup?  I am trying to get some relativity into my decision process.

[Kal Rubinson]

1.  I did not see the terms DSD or SACD in your text, so another option is a device like the miniDSP UDIO-8, Lynx AES16e PCIe sound card or the Arvus HDMI-2A which will let you stack any three DACs of your choice. 

2.  If you are insistent on a DAC or DACs with balanced output, you should note that the P7 has no balanced inputs only outputs!  That is one reason I prefer the Audio Research MP1.  If RCA inputs are OK, consider the Bryston SP3.

3.  

56 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

What the most important question I have is how much better can the SQ of the exaSound e38 via USB be over the high end MC pre/pros out there for SQ in a 2 channel or 5.1 setup? 

Not much but enough for me.

[Evo-No-Revo]

Yes, I do DSD native via ripped files.  I have a few SACD discs.  I also will play with some upsampling via Roon and HQP.  I am not insistent on DSD512 though.

 

I won't be stacking DACs as I am interested in more elegant solutions if you know what I mean...too much spaghetti.

 

Parasound P7...no XLR input.  That pulls that off the table.    I didn't think about that at this point.  That was sort of the point of this thread to sort out my possibilities....and blind spots.

 

The Audio Research MP1 looks very interesting!  I could add a Chord DAC and an e38 DAC and get the e38 with the RCA outs. 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Parasound P7...no XLR input. 

Well, it has one balanced stereo input but the multichannel inputs are SE.

[Evo-No-Revo]

Yes, I see.

 

The possibilities for the MP-1 are very interesting.   I don't think I can close the door on this one!  I actually already have a line on one... ?

Being able to use multiple XLR DACs into the MP-1 is pretty exciting possibilities. 

 

Just as an exercise in relativity, if the AR MP-1 is a 10 in sound quality, where would you place the Parasound P7?  That might be an unfair question but looking for some context in SQ comparisons.

[Evo-No-Revo]

After trying to  make my 2 channel self fit into a multichannel system I punted.  I returned the Plinius...not easy as it is 150lbs on a pallet.  I called Jonathan Tinn of Chambers Audio to send me back my Dartzeel NHB 108.  I am very happy to get the Dart back!  I am very glad it didn't sell.  Now I wish I had never sold my TAD Evolution Ones and my Lampi Golden Gate 2.... ?

 

But I am not giving up on multichannel.  I am going to get my 2 channel sorted back out via some sort of two channel DAC...maybe another Chord.  But Kal's recommendation of the Audio Research MP-1 is a winner.  I found one of the last to be produced.  It is on it's way back to AR for check up. 

 

I am very interested in the NADAC MC8.  But too much money right now even used.  The exaSound e38 is definitely an option on the table as well.  If a used e38 pops up I might jump on it.

In the mean time, mainly for multichannel movie playback, I am looking at just inserting the Lynx AES 16e into my computer and out via XLR into the AR MP-1.  I also am looking at the miniDSP UDIO8. 

https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AES16e--lynx-aes16e

Does anyone have a recommendation for best SQ between the Lynx and the mini DSP?  The Lynx is more than double the price.  As this is just a temporary situation and I am not that concerned about movie soundtrack playback quality, the cheaper option might be the one I go for. 

 

The only thing that is a little concerning with the Audio Research MP-1, is that there are going to be lots of cables....

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Does anyone have a recommendation for best SQ between the Lynx and the mini DSP? 

I do not know of anyone who has tried both and, although I would like to, I do not have a suitable slot for the Lynx in either of the servers I have now.  That said, I am doubtful there will be any audible differences.

N.B.:  Both of these multichannel USB-S/PDIF are limited to 24/192 PCM and no DSD.

N.B.:  The MP1 sounds wonderful but you may note the S/N spec is not up to modern standards and it greatly benefits from being connected to low gain power amps.

[Evo-No-Revo]

Thanks for the heads up on the possible gain issue with amps.  I will look into it. 

 

I do know the guy I am buying it from is using it with a NADAC MC8 and says it works very well together.  He is only selling it as he needs more balanced inputs. 

But I will ask him his opinion on how he thinks it will work with the Dartzeel.  I will ask Jonathan as well. 

 

At this time I wish I had keep my Oppo 205 but I exchanged it and got one of the last 203.  It would really work well for me but I am not paying the silly premium. 

 

Kal, do you have a preference for an Oppo 205 substitute.  I see all the usual suspects but does something stand out?

[Kal Rubinson]

3 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

But I will ask him his opinion on how he thinks it will work with the Dartzeel.  I will ask Jonathan as well. 

The Dartzeel amps have a stated gain of 26dB which is a bit lower than standard but not very much.  Depending on the speakers, you are likely to hear some hiss from the tweeters.  To entirely eliminate it, a still lower gain may be needed.

 

8 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Kal, do you have a preference for an Oppo 205 substitute.  I see all the usual suspects but does something stand out?

Nope.  I kept my 205 and will probably never replace it because I do not foresee any new physical media format arising in the future.

[Evo-No-Revo]

Do these specs give you a clue to the combination? 

 

Thanks for sharing some of your knowledge! 

[Evo-No-Revo]

This is pretty cool.  I mention the possible issue you mention. This is what the person selling me the preamp had to say. 

 

"A note about the MP1. Before taking delivery I had the factory lower the noise floor. I had auditioned the MP1 in Salt Lake and as a condition of sale ARC was to customize. They were pretty accommodating. The included service notes from the initial sale reflect this factory change. "    ?

 

I will continue to look into this but I guess I won't really know until it shows up. 

 

Thanks!

[Kal Rubinson]

9 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Do these specs give you a clue to the combination? 

Yes.  87dB is reasonably low.

 

9 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

 

"A note about the MP1. Before taking delivery I had the factory lower the noise floor. I had auditioned the MP1 in Salt Lake and as a condition of sale ARC was to customize. They were pretty accommodating. The included service notes from the initial sale reflect this factory change. "    ?

I had mine done at the factory, too, and it made a difference.  However, here's what they had to say:

Quote

Please keep in mind this product is from another era and adjust your expectation accordingly.  It’s design is borrowed from the REF2.  As such, the A weighted Balanced noise output with the gain control at a minimum is 95 dB below a 2V RMS output (35uV).   Our current electronics are much quieter.

With an ordinary amp (meaning gain around 29dB), there is audible hiss if my ear is about 8" from the tweeter.  I find that disturbing when working in the region of the speakers even though it is inaudible at the listening position.  With lowered gain, I need to have my ear less than 2" away to hear anything and that takes special effort.  It is not a biggie but a head's up.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

On August 20, 2018 at 8:57 PM, Evo-No-Revo said:

Yes, I do DSD native via ripped files.  I have a few SACD discs.  I also will play with some upsampling via Roon and HQP.  I am not insistent on DSD512 though.

 

I won't be stacking DACs as I am interested in more elegant solutions if you know what I mean...too much spaghetti.

 

Parasound P7...no XLR input.  That pulls that off the table.    I didn't think about that at this point.  That was sort of the point of this thread to sort out my possibilities....and blind spots.

 

The Audio Research MP1 looks very interesting!  I could add a Chord DAC and an e38 DAC and get the e38 with the RCA outs. 

 

You likely have seen my post in response to your parallel Thread at JRiver Forum:

 

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,117121.msg810340.html#msg810340

 

Just a few additions to that:

 

I would have upgraded from an Exasound E28 to an E38 by now if it had a balanced output option.  But, based on Kal's excellent reviews, I doubt I am paying much of a  sonic penalty.  I probably would have upgraded just on general principles and assuming a slight sonic improvement on comparative audition.  I am sure George Klissarov has his valid reasons, but, in chatting with him,  likely we will never see a balanced output E38.  Maybe next time. However, I firmly believe I need balanced because of long cable runs.  Otherwise, for just short runs, I would go unbalanced, much as I prefer XLR connectors, even with miniXLR snake cable adapters.

 

I have had some very fine and costly systems in my life, but this current HTPC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound setup is easily and by far the best sounding for my heavily classical music listening primarily in Mch.  The > 5 year old Win7 Pro 64 and I7 PC is very unexotic and aging now, but still way more than adequate.  I seriously doubt replacing/enhancing/tweaking the PC would do anything at all sonically.  Cables, as I have learned with care and some weeding out, need not be exotic or costly, contrary to my previous irrational, audiophile tendencies.  Addon gizmos, exotic neworking, etc.may have their devout fans and tons of anecdotes, but no provable sonic advantage, as I also learned from experience.

 

There are some inconveniences vs. a prepro and player configuration, and software sometimes got a little flaky, but I find JRiver, Dirac via VST and Exasound's driver quite stable these days. Avoiding Win 10 for now might have helped keep me out of trouble.   I am not messing with the Dirac 2.0 Beta for awhile.  With software, keep it simple, which is also a very good idea with hardware..

 

I had way back experimented with my older, very fine and great sounding Levinson stereo line stage in unity gain, HT Bypass mode for the front channels out of my old Integra prepro.  It introduced a noticeable reduction in transparency, which was even slightly worse when the Levinson's very sophisticated volume control was in circuit.  So, I firmly believe there is no avoiding that the fewer components in an analog signal path, the better.  I sold the Levinson for good money with no regrets.  A key appeal of the Exasound to me was the digital volume control and direct connection to my amps. 

 

So, I, for one, have never been happier and more satisfied as an audiophile and music lover.  Music, movies and TV all are beyond my wildest dreams of even 10 years ago In terms of audible and visual performance.  My wife or a stranger can't operate it, but they could in under 5 minutes if they had the patience to learn how from me via keyboard, mouse and iPad.

[Evo-No-Revo]

7 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

With an ordinary amp (meaning gain around 29dB), there is audible hiss if my ear is about 8" from the tweeter.  I find that disturbing when working in the region of the speakers even though it is inaudible at the listening position.  With lowered gain, I need to have my ear less than 2" away to hear anything and that takes special effort.  It is not a biggie but a head's up. 

I agree that is disturbing when I hear it.  Knowing the upgrade significantly drops the noise floor is comforting.  I certainly like the aspect of used equipment but not many situation to audition something.  After we get settled a bit into our new house and get it dialed in for the space, I might get a demo of the Parasound to see how it compares.  The Parasound Halo P7 is still being produced so demo can work.  But that is not really on my radar. 

 

The buyer I am buying the AR MP-1 from needed more inputs and replaced the MP-1 with the EMM Labs Switchman 3.  One is actually for sale on Superphonica.  I  know where a different Swithman 3 is and I could try it out on demo but I think I can deal with a tiny bit of background  noise and get to look at the front panel of the MP-1.  I love the giant display of the volume.  Switchman 3 is nowhere near as appealing visually.

https://www.emmlabs.com/images/legacy/Manuals/SWM3_Manual3v5.pdf

 

 

3 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

You likely have seen my post in response to your parallel Thread at JRiver Forum:

 

https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php/topic,117121.msg810340.html#msg810340

 

Just a few additions to that:

 

I would have upgraded from an Exasound E28 to an E38 by now if it had a balanced output option.  But, based on Kal's excellent reviews, I doubt I am paying much of a  sonic penalty.  I probably would have upgraded just on general principles and assuming a slight sonic improvement on comparative audition.  I am sure George Klissarov has his valid reasons, but, in chatting with him,  likely we will never see a balanced output E38.  Maybe next time. However, I firmly believe I need balanced because of long cable runs.  Otherwise, for just short runs, I would go unbalanced, much as I prefer XLR connectors, even with miniXLR snake cable adapters.

 

I have had some very fine and costly systems in my life, but this current HTPC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound setup is easily and by far the best sounding for my heavily classical music listening primarily in Mch.  The > 5 year old Win7 Pro 64 and I7 PC is very unexotic and aging now, but still way more than adequate.  I seriously doubt replacing/enhancing/tweaking the PC would do anything at all sonically.  Cables, as I have learned with care and some weeding out, need not be exotic or costly, contrary to my previous irrational, audiophile tendencies.  Addon gizmos, exotic neworking, etc.may have their devout fans and tons of anecdotes, but no provable sonic advantage, as I also learned from experience.

 

There are some inconveniences vs. a prepro and player configuration, and software sometimes got a little flaky, but I find JRiver, Dirac via VST and Exasound's driver quite stable these days. Avoiding Win 10 for now might have helped keep me out of trouble.   I am not messing with the Dirac 2.0 Beta for awhile.  With software, keep it simple, which is also a very good idea with hardware..

 

I had way back experimented with my older, very fine and great sounding Levinson stereo line stage in unity gain, HT Bypass mode for the front channels out of my old Integra prepro.  It introduced a noticeable reduction in transparency, which was even slightly worse when the Levinson's very sophisticated volume control was in circuit.  So, I firmly believe there is no avoiding that the fewer components in an analog signal path, the better.  I sold the Levinson for good money with no regrets.  A key appeal of the Exasound to me was the digital volume control and direct connection to my amps. 

 

So, I, for one, have never been happier and more satisfied as an audiophile and music lover.  Music, movies and TV all are beyond my wildest dreams of even 10 years ago In terms of audible and visual performance.  My wife or a stranger can't operate it, but they could in under 5 minutes if they had the patience to learn how from me via keyboard, mouse and iPad.

 

Ha, I haven't even checked back in on my thread. 

 

exaSound hasn't not responded to my question on this forum about the stated, by exaSound option of XLR outs.  I sent an email and have not heard back in almost a week.  I can't find a phone number either.  I don't know that I would be that interested in the option anymore because the increase in price for the upgrade will put you in used NADAC MC8 territory.

 

I am going slow into the multichannel music setup.  If I feel like I want to simplify away from the 5.1 music then I am not that committed to multichannel just for movies.  Hell, I could probably be good removing all the multichannel complex, go back to 2 channel and add something like the MartinLogan Soundbar...or some other company.  I feel pretty meh about putting much effort into the 5.1 movie experience.  The movie content options in movies all feels like the product of a dying and diseased Hollywood mindf&%# machine.  I was very involved in multichannel sales and installs back in the early 90's, it just doesn't ring my bell like I thought it would when I recently went back with the Lyngdorf M-50 pre/pro.

 

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

9 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

I agree that is disturbing when I hear it.  Knowing the upgrade significantly drops the noise floor is comforting.  I certainly like the aspect of used equipment but not many situation to audition something.  After we get settled a bit into our new house and get it dialed in for the space, I might get a demo of the Parasound to see how it compares.  The Parasound Halo P7 is still being produced so demo can work.  But that is not really on my radar. 

 

The buyer I am buying the AR MP-1 from needed more inputs and replaced the MP-1 with the EMM Labs Switchman 3.  One is actually for sale on Superphonica.  I  know where a different Swithman 3 is and I could try it out on demo but I think I can deal with a tiny bit of background  noise and get to look at the front panel of the MP-1.  I love the giant display of the volume.  Switchman 3 is nowhere near as appealing visually.

https://www.emmlabs.com/images/legacy/Manuals/SWM3_Manual3v5.pdf

 

 

 

Ha, I haven't even checked back in on my thread. 

 

exaSound hasn't not responded to my question on this forum about the stated, by exaSound option of XLR outs.  I sent an email and have not heard back in almost a week.  I can't find a phone number either.  I don't know that I would be that interested in the option anymore because the increase in price for the upgrade will put you in used NADAC MC8 territory.

 

I am going slow into the multichannel music setup.  If I feel like I want to simplify away from the 5.1 music then I am not that committed to multichannel just for movies.  Hell, I could probably be good removing all the multichannel complex, go back to 2 channel and add something like the MartinLogan Soundbar...or some other company.  I feel pretty meh about putting much effort into the 5.1 movie experience.  The movie content options in movies all feels like the product of a dying and diseased Hollywood mindf&%# machine.  I was very involved in multichannel sales and installs back in the early 90's, it just doesn't ring my bell like I thought it would when I recently went back with the Lyngdorf M-50 pre/pro.

 

 

For Mch music, the issue is your genre preference.  If it is heavy for classical, like mine, then there is an abundance of discretely recorded Mch albums that demonstrate any day of the week that hirez Mch is about as good as reproduction can possibly get today.  Stereo, even in hirez, is a very distant second to me.  I have thousands on my NAS, as does Kal, and I seldom listen in stereo, and never in upmixed Mch.  Ergo, my HTPC is primarily above all else a Mch music playback system.

 

But, with other genres, like rock, jazz, etc., it might be hard for even me to see the sustainable advantage of Mch for music.  The Mch releases are just not there.

 

However, even stereo playback as 2.1 using Dirac, a sub, etc. is substantially better now in my system than ever before.  I sold off many stereo-only components at good prices upon realizing this.

[Evo-No-Revo]

Yes, that was a point I meant to make earlier..  My music selection isn't really represented very well in the multichannel recording available.  There are those few classic rock albums done to SACD.  I do really like concert videos and that is one of the drivers of my multichannel A/V setup.  I am way more interested in classic rock, prog rock old and new and some classical.  The classical is mostly to enjoy the equipment as I have literally never tapped my toes to classical music.   Jazz sometimes but I often find it more annoying than entertaining.  I guess I am limited in that respect.  I have 97,000 plus tracks in my library and I bet I could live easily with only 10,000. 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

The buyer I am buying the AR MP-1 from needed more inputs and replaced the MP-1 with the EMM Labs Switchman 3.  One is actually for sale on Superphonica.  I  know where a different Swithman 3 is and I could try it out on demo but I think I can deal with a tiny bit of background  noise and get to look at the front panel of the MP-1.  I love the giant display of the volume.  Switchman 3 is nowhere near as appealing visually.

I almost bought a Switchman 3 several times but the wired remote control is, imho, as good as none.

[Evo-No-Revo]

Not moving to the bigger house.  My multichannel setup is going to basically stay movie/music setup.  I had to back out of the deal for the Audio Research MP-1.

 

If someone is interested in an excellent, one owner Audio Research MP-1, I can connect you to a very nice gentleman named Tony that will have it for sale as soon as he gets it back from a check up at AR.  He is going to put it up for sale soon.  Let me know if you are interested.

 

By the way, I bought a Chord DAVE today!  My interest has swung back to two channel..

 

Thanks for your input Kalman!

 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

16 minutes ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

Thanks for your input Kalman!

You are welcome.  I hope you find what you are searching for.

[Evo-No-Revo]

7 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I hope you find what you are searching for. 

 

Thanks for the sentiment.. Not always easy in a world of cool distractions!!  ?

[SrMead]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 2:08 PM, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

HTPC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound setupFor Mch music, the issue is your genre preference.  If it is heavy for classical, like mine, then there is an abundance of discretely recorded Mch albums that demonstrate any day of the week that hirez Mch is about as good as reproduction can possibly get today.  

 

Hello Fitz,

 

I share your appreciation for well recorded MCH classical music, and I'm trying to rebuild my system to do it justice. The HTPC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound setup you mention above is remarkably similar to what I'm exploring.   May I ask what your philosophy is regarding speakers for the center and rear channels?  Do you use speakers intended for home theater or do you choose differently?   How about the subwoofer?

 

Thanks in advance for your insights!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Let me pop in and say that, if you are doing this "for well recorded MCH classical music," you want the front three speakers to be identical if possible.  They should sound alike and need/not need bass management alike.  The surrounds should also be the same, if possible, but smaller close relatives can be used., if necessary.

 

A subwoofer may not be necessary if all the speakers are capable of extended bass but many people prefer (or are constrained) to use smaller speakers with a sub.  It can work just as well but adds complexity.  I do not use bass management but keep the subs for the ocassional 5.1 recording. 

[SrMead]

Thank you, Kal.  Is there an "official" guideline on the location of the speakers relative to the listening position for a MCH music setup (the way Dolby has for home theater)?   And/or, what's your experience?   Specifically wondering whether the surrounds should go to the sides of the listening position or behind.

[Kal Rubinson]

Gospel is that it is the same ITU Rec. 775 layout cited by Dolby (0deg for center, +/-30deg for L/R, +/-120deg for SL/SR) but it is based on the presumption that the recording/mixing/mastering was made with that as the target, as it is for movies.  Many of us have found that, for classical music where all the performers are up front, moving the SL/SR forward from +/-120deg to as much as +/-60deg can be advantageous.  Mine are just barely to the front of the listening position.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

13 hours ago, SrMead said:

 

Hello Fitz,

 

I share your appreciation for well recorded MCH classical music, and I'm trying to rebuild my system to do it justice. The HTPC/JRiver/Dirac/Exasound setup you mention above is remarkably similar to what I'm exploring.   May I ask what your philosophy is regarding speakers for the center and rear channels?  Do you use speakers intended for home theater or do you choose differently?   How about the subwoofer?

 

Thanks in advance for your insights!

 

Kal’s advice is excellent, as always, of course.

 

I chose speakers all from the same manufacturer, Martin Logan, with electrostat hybrids all around - 3 different size stereo pairs plus a horizontal center for 7.1.  I listened to them all individually prior to final setup in stereo or mono vs. the large front pair I already had.  There was very little noticeable difference except in the deep, bass, which is offloaded to a single JL Audio f113 sub via bass management anyway.  I highly recommend a sub or subs no matter how large the main speakers are.  

 

The design of MLs is consistent except for scaled/up down panel and woofer sizes. Hence, there is good reason to expect them to sound alike, except for bass extension.  The center is somewhat different, but still uses a shorter ‘stat panel for the mids plus a dome tweeter and 2 woofers.  It sounded near identical to the others, except for the bass.  I am quite pleased with the seamlessness of sonic integration across the front and all around. 

 

My my center is also above my 70” TV, pointed down toward my ears via laser aiming.    I hear no geometric or height distortion across the front soundstage.  For example, the choral group Stile Antico appear arrayed in a perfect horizontal line across the soundstage, just as they are live.  In listening to friends’ 3 identical front Mch setups, I honestly hear no distinct advantage over mine.

 

Dirac Live or similar EQ also voices all speaker channels near-identically, in addition to correcting for many room effects.  Highly recommended. Absolutely indispensable, actually.

 

I use exact ITU 5.0/1 speaker angular alignment: 0, +-30 and +-110 degrees.  (My back speakers are at +-150.) With minor exceptions, I believe that is what most all Mch music recordings use, as confirmed by some engineering sources.  It is also totally compliant with the angular ranges specified by DTS and Dolby for 5.1 on video.  Video sound in my system is also quite excellent.

 

I do not recommend 7.1, especially not for music.  Even on BD, there are relatively few releases supporting it, and, of course, no SACDs.  And, discrete 7.1 adds very little over a mixdown to 5.1 or discrete 5.1.  By hindsight, it was a poor investment on my part that gets little use.

 

Having experimented extensively, I also no longer use any stereo to Mch upmixing.  It falls considerably short of discrete Mch.  I am fine listening to stereo as 2.1, which I do only occasionally.

 

So, have fun and enjoy.  Discretely recorded, hirez Mch is easily the best reproduction yet in terms of creating a replica of live concert music.  I have not heard a stereo system at any price, even many hundreds of $thousands, that comes nearly as close.  Will Immersive 3D be better still?  I will wait that one out, thanks, until there is a viable pipeline of discretely recorded music in that format.