Help CA Find New Speakers

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Sal1950 said:

I think that's a first for us, we agreeing on something.  LOL

I would warn Chris on the Giva line, I know personally someone that has had reliability problems with the in-house built drivers and less than stellar customer service over the continued failures.     Just sayin

I hate to do this but I have to rule out the fantastic Vivid loudspeakers. I just can’t stand to look at them. Got to be honest. 

[rickca]

Focal Stella Utopia EM Evo $65K.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, rickca said:

Focal Stella Utopia EM Evo $65K.

 

I believe the Stella is $65k per speaker right?

[Ralf11]

Plasmatronics

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Plasmatronics

Helium may get expensive as it gets more scarce. 

[rickca]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I believe the Stella is $65k per speaker right?

Of course!  You said don't get hung up on price.  ?   I think the EM technology trickled down from the Grande Utopia is very significant.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, rickca said:

Of course!  You said don't get hung up on price.  ?   I think the EM technology trickled down from the Grande Utopia is very significant.  

Yes, don’t get hung up on price. Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page that $65k was each ?

[The Computer Audiophile]

I’m looking hard at the Utopia EM Evo speakers. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Would love to hear from @esldude for a recommendation. 

[Derek Hughes]

My favorites at Axpona  were the Classic Audio speakers. I walked into their room when they were playing Moby Dick  by Led Zeppelin. Mesmerizing. Spent an hour in that room and loved every minute. 

[Ralf11]

[TubeLover]

 I would strongly suggest you look at a pair of Audio Physic Cardeas Limited Jubilee Edition's.

 

http://www.audiophysic.de/cardeas_LJE/index_e.html

 

While traveling, I had some spare time, stopped and spent an afternoon at a very significant brick and mortar audio store a couple months back. The dealer sells speakers up to $100,000.00 a pair and has an incredible lineup of prominent speaker manufacturers. After a lot of listening, we got to know each other, and shared a glass of single malt in his office at the end of the day. At that point, he told me (off the record) that he has to be careful who he lets listen to the Audio Physics because the less expensive ones trump anything at twice the price, and the Cardeas will kill any potential sale of other speakers up to at least $60k once people hear them. My extended auditioning of ten different pairs of speakers had already brought me to the same opinion.

 

These are beautifully built, superbly designed speakers that would function perfectly in your existing room. They have an incredible, 3D soundstage that echoes the best elements of a planar speaker, as it seems to come from nowhere at all, outstanding bass, and a brilliant overall balance. They are the only speaker under the mega dollar range that can produce astounding and absolute clarity without a hint of brightness, stridency or  being the least bit overly analytical. I was blown away.  

 

I was perfectly happy with the speakers I owned at that point, and didn't even know I was lacking in so many areas compared to the Audio Physics. Suffice to say I will be on an extended diet of all ramen noodles for the next six months to cover the expense of the Audio Physic Cardeas speakers I closed the deal on before I left. That was an expense I didn't see coming, but have never regretted for a moment since they showed up and I got them set up properly in my room.

 

JC

 

 

[esldude]

6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Would love to hear from @esldude for a recommendation. 

Not sure why I was singled out.  I don't have experience with lots of the recent top contenders. 

 

Maybe I'm brainwashed, but I'm convinced Harman's methodology is sound and onto something important.  Now I knew of it for several years, but having heard some of their designs is convincing.  The LSR305's of JBL (Harman division) are stunningly good for peanuts.  Revel's are that too though pricier peanuts.  So considering you want something conventional mainstream, I would suggest whichever of the Revel speakers in your price and size range deserve strong consideration and investigation.  Even then speakers are personal, and you should hear them in person enough to know if they tickle your music bone or not.  I would say the various Harman sourced speakers may not quite be best at any particular aspect, but seem to score 90% on almost all aspects.  And the result is often hear it, love it, and forget about speakers as they get out of the way.  You'll not revel (pun intended) in micro-detail, or explosive dynamics,  etc. etc. What you will find is it is easy to revel in the music itself.  Normally  you'll not be fighting deficiencies in the speaker to get that result.  With many speakers they have a couple or three fantastic aspects, and need some careful or unusual setup to get the best of them.  Revel's will respond to careful setup, but aren't unbalanced in their positive attributes. 

 

One I've not heard were I you that would get some attention is Magico.  I think at the ultimate end of fidelity even if everything else is done right, a cone speaker must have a great enclosure.  I think Magico does well in this regard.  Though note I have never heard them, just seen their designs.  I've read the measured results at Stereophile and Soundstage.  I would listen to something in the Q or S series. 

 

So why no panel suggestions?  Well you've indicated you wanted to stay somewhat mainstream.  I assume you'll review some gear with them.  All panels have their peccadilloes.  

 

I would also note your room isn't far from square.  For reviewing things maybe too much bother, but a distributed  multiple subwoofer system can really help in the low end.  Maybe even to the point you could go a step down on the main speakers and spend extra on distributed woofers.  Dallas Justice can probably offer good advice on that.  I did see you said you wanted full range.  But I don't know if any full range speaker could give as good a low end and as even a low end (which is very important) as having multiple subwoofers. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 hours ago, esldude said:

Not sure why I was singled out.  I don't have experience with lots of the recent top contenders. 

 

Maybe I'm brainwashed, but I'm convinced Harman's methodology is sound and onto something important.  Now I knew of it for several years, but having heard some of their designs is convincing.  The LSR305's of JBL (Harman division) are stunningly good for peanuts.  Revel's are that too though pricier peanuts.  So considering you want something conventional mainstream, I would suggest whichever of the Revel speakers in your price and size range deserve strong consideration and investigation.  Even then speakers are personal, and you should hear them in person enough to know if they tickle your music bone or not.  I would say the various Harman sourced speakers may not quite be best at any particular aspect, but seem to score 90% on almost all aspects.  And the result is often hear it, love it, and forget about speakers as they get out of the way.  You'll not revel (pun intended) in micro-detail, or explosive dynamics,  etc. etc. What you will find is it is easy to revel in the music itself.  Normally  you'll not be fighting deficiencies in the speaker to get that result.  With many speakers they have a couple or three fantastic aspects, and need some careful or unusual setup to get the best of them.  Revel's will respond to careful setup, but aren't unbalanced in their positive attributes. 

 

One I've not heard were I you that would get some attention is Magico.  I think at the ultimate end of fidelity even if everything else is done right, a cone speaker must have a great enclosure.  I think Magico does well in this regard.  Though note I have never heard them, just seen their designs.  I've read the measured results at Stereophile and Soundstage.  I would listen to something in the Q or S series. 

 

So why no panel suggestions?  Well you've indicated you wanted to stay somewhat mainstream.  I assume you'll review some gear with them.  All panels have their peccadilloes.  

 

I would also note your room isn't far from square.  For reviewing things maybe too much bother, but a distributed  multiple subwoofer system can really help in the low end.  Maybe even to the point you could go a step down on the main speakers and spend extra on distributed woofers.  Dallas Justice can probably offer good advice on that.  I did see you said you wanted full range.  But I don't know if any full range speaker could give as good a low end and as even a low end (which is very important) as having multiple subwoofers. 

Great advice. Thanks. 

[rando]

How important is it to you they be visually stirring, maestoso? 

 

Would you audition them behind a curtain (of darkness) without any bias towards the manufacturer or the personalities involved with them?

[asdf1000]

4 hours ago, esldude said:

I did see you said you wanted full range.  But I don't know if any full range speaker could give as good a low end and as even a low end (which is very important) as having multiple subwoofers. 

 

@The Computer Audiophile the GoldenEar Triton One REFERENCE's I recommended tick all the boxes, with 1800W subwoofers built in (56 bit DSP sub amps)... 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, rando said:

How important is it to you they be visually stirring, maestoso? 

 

Would you audition them behind a curtain (of darkness) without any bias towards the manufacturer or the personalities involved with them?

 

I just can’t do Vivid because of the looks. As great as they are, I can’t do it. Thus, looks matter. 

 

Also, personalities matter. I won’t buy a speaker from a manufacturer that’s a jerk or won’t support his products. Part of what I’m doing is also telling the CA community that I’ve done my due diligence and support company XYZ and it’s products enough that I purchased speaker ABC. It’s an endorsement that I’m paying for rather than the usual way endorsements work. 

[rando]

Everything matters.  

[asdf1000]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thus, looks matter. 

 

I guess that rules out the Tritons LOL. That's how they keep their costs affordable but when you hear them, you will quickly forget about their looks.

 

[rickca]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I just can’t do Vivid because of the looks.

They look amazing in a really modern uncluttered environment.  However, few of us have a home that looks like an art gallery.

[Lobbster]

Well, if amp rolling was my thing, I'd probably call Bill Dudleston and see what inspiration he can put in your room. I've heard he puts multiplates on some of his speakers and you can configure multiple amps on each side, or at the flick of a switch - 1 amp on each side. And the Wavelet DSP giving you on the fly EQ from your favourite wireless device. Legacy have subs to build with as well.

 

So many choices... Persona 9H are nice for sure. What DSP/Room Correction can do with the sweet spot these days is very cool. Just need to find the right sound signature for you.

[Hugo9000]

I think you owe it to yourself to at least investigate the KEF Muon!

 

https://www.avsforum.com/kef-muon-mk-2-vpi-titan-at-capital-audiofest-2016/

 

Only $10,000 US to upgrade an original pair to Mk 2 status, which includes the drivers, crossovers, and the technician flying to wherever the owner is in the world!  That's great support! 

 

 

(I'm going to mention for the record that I can't stand Andrew Jones.  He gets so much mileage out of having worked for KEF for a while, and all over the internet, people give him credit for things like the KEF Uni-Q.  Interesting that the patents only named Laurie Fincham, and that wherever Jones goes, he copies things KEF is known for, down to using a name like Uni-Fi on those Elac knockoffs on KEF's Q series.  Anywho, I'd love for insiders at KEF to speak out about him, but I doubt they would ever bother giving him even more publicity than he already gets.  That TAD monitor looks an awful lot like a KEF Reference 201 haha, including the curved cabinet.  Then he goes back to boxy designs after KEF did that.  He seems to play follow the leader, while his internet fans give him so many accolades as being an innovator of some sort.  I'm sure his "designs" are good, he did after all work with the masters for long enough to learn a few things.  Oh, and in case it is the manufacturers insisting they want to copy KEF, he could always refuse to do it, and come up with something fresh, especially since he's supposed to be such a brilliant designer and innovator) /SOAPBOX

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

I think you owe it to yourself to at least investigate the KEF Muon!

 

https://www.avsforum.com/kef-muon-mk-2-vpi-titan-at-capital-audiofest-2016/

 

Only $10,000 US to upgrade an original pair to Mk 2 status, which includes the drivers, crossovers, and the technician flying to wherever the owner is in the world!  That's great support! 

 

 

(I'm going to mention for the record that I can't stand Andrew Jones.  He gets so much mileage out of having worked for KEF for a while, and all over the internet, people give him credit for things like the KEF Uni-Q.  Interesting that the patents only named Laurie Fincham, and that wherever Jones goes, he copies things KEF is known for, down to using a name like Uni-Fi on those Elac knockoffs on KEF's Q series.  Anywho, I'd love for insiders at KEF to speak out about him, but I doubt they would ever bother giving him even more publicity than he already gets.  That TAD monitor looks an awful lot like a KEF Reference 201 haha, including the curved cabinet.  Then he goes back to boxy designs after KEF did that.  He seems to play follow the leader, while his internet fans give him so many accolades as being an innovator of some sort.  I'm sure his "designs" are good, he did after all work with the masters for long enough to learn a few things.  Oh, and in case it is the manufacturers insisting they want to copy KEF, he could always refuse to do it, and come up with something fresh, especially since he's supposed to be such a brilliant designer and innovator) /SOAPBOX

Wow. No need to argue other than to say there’s a lot of misinformation and insinuating there. 

 

I’m willing to bet you’ve never talked to him. He is humble enough to address each one of your points and give you a completely different take. 

 

Don’t all good designers learn from someone?

[Hugo9000]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Wow. No need to argue other than to say there’s a lot of misinformation and insinuating there. 

 

I’m willing to bet you’ve never talked to him. He is humble enough to address each one of your points and give you a completely different take. 

 

Don’t all good designers learn from someone?

Regarding your last point, I agree, however, they don't typically move to other companies, copying everything from the original company over a decade and a half of their careers, do they?

 

No, I have never spoken to him.  He does seem humble and self-effacing on the videos I've seen with him, and as he was employed by KEF for a fairly substantial period, I'm sure he is a competent engineer, at the very least, or KEF would have terminated the relationship.  Perhaps it's unfair to blame him for the things his rabid fan club puts out all over the internet, just as it wasn't Mariah Carey's fault that marketing types at Sony and some crazy fans claimed she had a seven-octave range and could have been an operatic singer if she'd wanted (lol).  However, he could address some of the things when they are mentioned in articles and interviews regarding his work.  Actually, I blame the magazine writers and interviewers for not asking a few of those questions, more than I blame him for not bringing it up spontaneously.

 

I'm curious which things in my post are "misinformation."  The only information I have at my disposal is the timeline, and the patent filings, and all the years of fawning interviews and reviews, where any mention of KEF at the very least implies that Jones was responsible for KEF's greatest innovations.  If the situation is actually reversed, and Laurie Fincham and others at KEF stole credit* for Andrew Jones' work, then he should have challenged KEF in court.  As to the timeline of work since leaving KEF, are you suggesting that KEF spies on him, and manages to beat him to market on some of those speakers, making it appear that he is still copying them?  Otherwise, I don't see what you mean by misinformation in my post above.  If there is misinformation due to corporate espionage, etc., the misinformation is in the record itself, such as it is.  Other than the timeline and similarities of products, I think it's clear I was posting my opinion of him and his work ("I'm going to mention for the record that I can't stand Andrew Jones," is clearly opinion, and hardly the preamble to an objective recitation of facts lol).  I'm not an insider, so I'm not privy to hidden truths, if there are any.

 

*(I will acknowledge that I'm well aware that famous researchers/scientists/etc have been known throughout history to take credit for the work and ideas of assistants and coworkers, etc., so obviously that is a possibility.  And it's always possible that the assistant/underling may not be able to provide evidence to substantiate a claim.)

 

Final edit:  I didn't intend to derail this thread, so my apologies for that!

[Superdad]

@The Computer Audiophile If you are going to move a wall, then I urge you to turn everything around if needed and make that new wall the front wall—that is the wall behind the speakers—and to fill it with sand!  It is a pain in the neck to do, but having a super-solid, near-inert wall behind your speakers will dramatically improve the “bass launch” and reduce coloration of bass.

Short of that, build it with 2x6 studs, 12” on-center, with several staggered horizontal fire-blocks between every stud.  Insulate with rock-wool and covers with two layers of 5/8” drywall (use dis-similar for each layer, say Type-X for one) and hang one layer vertical, the other horizontal.  

To really help your walls, buy large sheets of PolyDamp ADA viscoelasitc material (http://www.polytechinc.com/products/vibration-damping) cut into 4”x4” squares, sticking one every square foot—in between the layers of drywall.

You could also put PolyDampADA on the face edges of the studs as I did:

 

And extra points and the benefit of no boomy corners if you make the corners concave:

 

In other words, skip the new speakers and invest in building a new room!  

Nowhere near as easy as picking up the phone and ordering a pair of speakers, but possibly far greater results...

Just sayin’.  Good luck.