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5 hours ago, barrows said:

I do not think that is IT.  The fact is, all loudspeakers are very compromised.  An audiophile is forced to choose which qualities in sound reproduction are most important to them, and (hopefully) they choose their loudspeakers appropriate to their preferences.

One who values dynamic expression over other qualities, might choose a horn based speaker.  One who values transparency, might alternatively choose a 'stat or planar magnetic, etc.  Unfortunately, there is no one speaker technology which solves all the problems of transforming the electrical signal to moving air.

 

Hmmm ...

 

Nearly all systems are very compromised, adding a layer of makeup, and deadening the intrinsic qualities of the recordings ... some choices open up the vista of what the recordings truly contain more than others, such as well done horn rigs.

 

What solves all problems is assembling a core of decent components, and then working on the weakenesses that remain - the technology of the speakers is only a minor player in this; and if one was sufficiently motivated a variety of systems with the full range of speaker types could be made to sound effectively, subjectively identical.

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Slightly off topic question fully cognizant that enjoyable sound was not possible excepting a very brief period between acoustic panels arriving and TAD departing.

 

In one of your related threads attention was directed towards isolating your listening room floor from bedroom below.  Have the steps you took during remodeling officially received WAF?  

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7 hours ago, barrows said:

Yeah, agreed.  I was not meaning to say your comments were in error, my bad really.  Anyone stating a preference for certain type of loudspeaker is fine with me, as to my mind that person is just revealing what qualities in playback matter to them most.  But when the audiophile makes statements such as "only (insert favorite type of loudspeaker here) designs make for realistic sounding playback, I get really annoyed.

I know my preference is for, overall, traditional, drivers in a box style loudspeakers, because for me, well designed versions of this type of loudspeaker tend to have the fewest faults, no they are not as dynamic as the best horns, and they are not (at least not often) as transparent as the best planars (be it 'stats or planar magnetics), and box type loudspeakers are also the most expensive type of speaker to produce (at least in you want a good one with a non-resonant enclosure)-but their combination of virtues is hard to beat for my listening preferences.  Understand that I really do not tolerate the lack of body inherent in planars, or the often weird tonal qualities of horns; but I would never suggest that drivers in a box type speakers are the only ones which folks should consider to produce realistic music playback.

Very well said. Your assessment of various speaker types is fair, and spot on. 

 

JC

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3 hours ago, barrows said:

@fas42, I do not disagree, but my main point was that loudspeakers, have much more compromise involved with their performance than any other component in the playback chain.  I suspect the reason is that the engineering challenge of converting electrical signals accurately into moving air is an order of magnitude greater than the of electronic-electronic interfacing.

 

Much more compromise in a readily measurable sense, but far less in key, subjectively highly relevant areas. If my only option to resolving subpar sound was to keep swapping speakers until "it was good enough" - I would throw in the towel immediately. It would be a doomed exercise, because I would be caught between using a speaker which effectively muffled the flaws earlier in the chain; or, one that let everything through, meaning only the "very best" recordings, which did the least to provoke or highlight audible problems, would be acceptable.

 

I have had enough experience listening to a range of speakers, from the most expensive to extremely good value for money units, to know that they can all deliver what's on the recording in a satisfying, consistent manner - if driven properly.

 

The real engineering challenge is understanding the need to address all the subtle, 'minor' issues that cripple the potential of most rigs - these are the compromises that do the real damage, and where focused attention to detail really pays off.

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1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

Much more compromise in a readily measurable sense, but far less in key, subjectively highly relevant areas. If my only option to resolving subpar sound was to keep swapping speakers until "it was good enough" - I would throw in the towel immediately. It would be a doomed exercise, because I would be caught between using a speaker which effectively muffled the flaws earlier in the chain; or, one that let everything through, meaning only the "very best" recordings, which did the least to provoke or highlight audible problems, would be acceptable.

 

I have had enough experience listening to a range of speakers, from the most expensive to extremely good value for money units, to know that they can all deliver what's on the recording in a satisfying, consistent manner - if driven properly.

 

The real engineering challenge is understanding the need to address all the subtle, 'minor' issues that cripple the potential of most rigs - these are the compromises that do the real damage, and where focused attention to detail really pays off.

 

I know you think differently Frank, but doing that is relatively expensive. That is why spending more money on speakers is almost always a good idea. 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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17 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Yep,  I ran a pair of Klipsch La Scala's for 32 years with a couple factory upgrades along the way.  Never would have given them up if I had the room for them in my retirement home.

Sam Tellig agreed with me an ran a RAVE review of them for Stereophile in 2006

http://www.soundhifi.com/klipsch/sam.htm

 

Klipsch Heresy III's  were given a luke-warm review by Art Dudly in 2012

https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-119

And were given a very highly positive follow-up review by Ken Micallef in 2018

https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-119-ken-micallef-june-2018

 

The more modern 600m was a huge hit with Herb Reichert in March

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-reference-premiere-rp-600m-loudspeaker

 

So it depends on which reviewer at Stereophile you cast your lot.  LOL

 

 

I understand what you've been saying better now. I haven't seen horns dissed in general, but yes, I've seen the specific attitude that Klipsch is somehow out of date and no longer "audiophile" from some folks.  Don't particularly understand that sort of thinking myself. I think they sound fine, and my own preference is for a non-traditional type of speaker.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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5 hours ago, Jud said:

 

I understand what you've been saying better now. I haven't seen horns dissed in general, but yes, I've seen the specific attitude that Klipsch is somehow out of date and no longer "audiophile" from some folks.  Don't particularly understand that sort of thinking myself. I think they sound fine, and my own preference is for a non-traditional type of speaker.

Oh, I get it now too that you have connected the dots for me.  TBH, I don't recall Klipsch ever really being considered "audiophile". People griping about Klipsch aren't necessarily doing so about horns in general. They are not typical examples of horn speakers as the horns themselves are too small to load well at their respective frequencies. It's been decades since I have heard them, though they might be very attractive to some as compared to modern speakers.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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On 6/21/2019 at 1:22 AM, Sal1950 said:

Nope,  I knew early on my recommendation of JBL M2 wouldn't fly.

Any kind of horn would have too big a negative effect on his cred's here on this uber-audiophile website.

Wouldn't matter if the Angels from heaven themselves delivered them.

Okay Sal and Chris, This was the first time I heard of these, and looked them up. Very interesting. There’s also the “audiophile” version the  JBL4637, which is pretty much the same speaker, but passive, so you can run it with a standard amp. And it looks more like a home speaker than the M2.
Have you guys actually heard these? What’d you think? I’d love to hear a pair. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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47 minutes ago, 4est said:

Oh, I get it now too that you have connected the dots for me.  TBH, I don't recall Klipsch ever really being considered "audiophile". People griping about Klipsch aren't necessarily doing so about horns in general. They are not typical examples of horn speakers as the horns themselves are too small to load well at their respective frequencies. It's been decades since I have heard them, though they might be very attractive to some as compared to modern speakers.

 

To be fair, Klipschorns were THE lust after speakers back in the late 70’s. :) 

 

I was really the outlier, because I thought my Advents were hands down better. 

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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13 minutes ago, firedog said:

Okay Sal and Chris, This was the first time I heard of these, and looked them up. Very interesting. There’s also the “audiophile” version the  JBL4637, which is pretty much the same speaker, but passive, so you can run it with a standard amp. And it looks more like a home speaker than the M2.
Have you guys actually heard these? What’d you think? I’d love to hear a pair. 

I believe the consumer version of these is the K2 S9900. However, then you lose all the gooodness of the external crossover and amp and dsp. 

 

D9F244D0-6E95-494B-AEE9-5D78B9BE5FA4.jpeg

 

 

https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/JBL-K2-S9900-Tower-Speakers

Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems AudiophileStyleStickerWhite2.0.png AudiophileStyleStickerWhite7.1.4.png

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20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I believe the consumer version of these is the K2 S9900. However, then you lose all the gooodness of the external crossover and amp and dsp. 

 

D9F244D0-6E95-494B-AEE9-5D78B9BE5FA4.jpeg

 

 

https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/JBL-K2-S9900-Tower-Speakers

spacer.pngActually, I was thinking of these, which are pretty much a direct copy of the M2, passive, and built to look more like a home speaker.

https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/JBL-4367-Tower-Speakers

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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1 hour ago, firedog said:

Actually, I was thinking of these

Yes the 4367 are considered the blue collar version of the M2. a great less expensive option that can also be made active with the proper DSP gear.  I know someone who went that way at first but later got a good deal on M2's   LOL

I haven't personally heard either yet though I know a number of owners.

I have a newer web friend that just moved into my area with M2's, he has told me that as soon as he gets settled in his new digs he would invite me over for a evening of listening.  I'm pretty stoked waiting.

I really hoped to hear something at the last Tampa audio show in Feb but the  best JBL brought was the new L100 Classic.

I was disappointed, but they sounded very impressive actually,  nothing like I remember the old 1970s  L100

I hear the Tampa show was a big success for a first year event and will be run again this Feb 7-9 bigger and better,  Here's hoping.

https://floridaaudioexpo.com/

 

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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16 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

To be fair, Klipschorns were THE lust after speakers back in the late 70’s. :) 

 

I was really the outlier, because I thought my Advents were hands down better. 

 

 

Perhaps that is a location thing. I was in HS then and spent all of my money on Magnepan MG 1, but lusted after Quads. The horn guys wanted Altec and JBL. Klipsch were never taken seriously and likened to upscale Cerwin Vega. I'll stop there lest I upset Sal's notably fragile ego further. Please note that I was pretty heavy into audio even then, and was running tube gear with separated regulated power supplies and such. It was all a bit over the top tbh, but if you think tube gear is always polite, soft or mushy, think again.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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1 minute ago, Norton said:

Count me in - Cornwall IIIs  have been my only speakers for last 4 years, replacing B&W Nautilus 805 signatures.  Whether or not they are considered “audiophile”, to my ears they convey  a sense of listening to live music  performance that I’ve just not heard even with much more expensive mainstream “hifi” speakers.  

Oh, I can see how. It would seem that many of today's speakers lack the oomph that they have. The notion that you can DSP to make a plastic 8" sound like a nice paper 15" is ludicrous IMO. Klipsch are very engaging.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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22 minutes ago, 4est said:

Oh, I can see how. It would seem that many of today's speakers lack the oomph that they have. The notion that you can DSP to make a plastic 8" sound like a nice paper 15" is ludicrous IMO. Klipsch are very engaging.

You are correct.
But DSP can do some amazing stuff. Look at the Devialet site where they show how their SAM mapping of speakers changes the output: Speakers gain from 3 to even 20hz of extra low end extension, and distortion is reduced. That's all from digital crossovers with the ability to push the drivers exactly to their maximum point before they  begin to distort, and not further. Can't do that with a conventional amp speaker setup.
So  you can't make an 8" sound like a 15", but you can definitely get it closer.

As for Klipsch spearkers, I think a lot of that live sound is also due to the characteristics of the horns.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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12 minutes ago, firedog said:

You are correct.
But DSP can do some amazing stuff. Look at the Devialet site where they show how their SAM mapping of speakers changes the output: Speakers gain from 3 to even 20hz of extra low end extension, and distortion is reduced. That's all from digital crossovers with the ability to push the drivers exactly to their maximum point before they  begin to distort, and not further. Can't do that with a conventional amp speaker setup.
So  you can't make an 8" sound like a 15", but you can definitely get it closer.

As for Klipsch spearkers, I think a lot of that live sound is also due to the characteristics of the horns.

I didn't intend that to disparage DSP, I know you are a fan. What I meant was that even with DSP,  many of today's speakers leave me flat. Klipsch are lively for sure, and Zu comes to mind as another along with Tannoy. None of those could make me happy long term. The lack of top to bottom coherence is too big of a hit for the dynamics IMO. FWIW, I am no stranger to horns. I've run Altecs in my shop for decades.

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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1 hour ago, 4est said:

Perhaps that is a location thing. I was in HS then and spent all of my money on Magnepan MG 1, but lusted after Quads. The horn guys wanted Altec and JBL. Klipsch were never taken seriously and likened to upscale Cerwin Vega. I'll stop there lest I upset Sal's notably fragile ego further. Please note that I was pretty heavy into audio even then, and was running tube gear with separated regulated power supplies and such. It was all a bit over the top tbh, but if you think tube gear is always polite, soft or mushy, think again.

 

Those were the days of “Do I buy a loaf of bread and jar of peanut butter and walk to class and work - or - put gas in the car?” for me.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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15 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

Those were the days of “Do I buy a loaf of bread and jar of peanut butter and walk to class and work - or - put gas in the car?” for me.

LOL- I rode a bike or walked everywhere and didn't even own a car. I spent all of my money on audio and girls!

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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16 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

Those were the days of “Do I buy a loaf of bread and jar of peanut butter and walk to class and work - or - put gas in the car?” for me.

Skip class and listen to HiFi.  No gas needed

 

sad.... but true.

My System TWO SPEAKERS AND A CHAIR

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Those were the days of "I wish I had $250 for large Advents"'; and  $350 for JBL L100's is more than I'll ever be able to afford. (That's what I remember the prices as, anyway). I had smaller Advents and did lust after those JBLs. Probably wouldn't like that model today, but they could rock out. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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