Help CA Find New Speakers

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

the Email sent to new signups should include the disclosure requirement and at least a link to any other rules of deportment

 

CC - take a close look at the swarm sub system (still fails the dipole criterion IIRC) - you are so close to Maggie, why not buy Wendell lunch and write an article about it??

I really should give Wendell a call. I was there several years ago, but i should setup a specific listening session. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

@esldude Which Sound Lab speakers do you think would be a good fit in my room?

 

 

[JMD54]

The owner of CA himself told you what to do in post #270 what more of an invitation do you need. If you consider that hostility then that's on you.

[Neal.Audio]

Some inexcusable comments here, unwarranted and unearned. And since at least one obvious troll comment was flagged and went unchecked by CA, I believe allowing it gives me the freedom to respond.

It seems reasonable that enthusiasts don't want this board gummed up with propaganda from dealers. In my 34 years as a consumer of high end audio, less than one of those years has been spent as a dealer… and so I understand the sentiment. Yet my posts have been transparent, and at least some users have found them helpful.

In my comments about the Sub Threes, the language wouldn’t be any different than if I weren’t a dealer. My first two pairs of Vandersteen speakers were purchased in 1985, and I know the brand pretty well... demonstrated product knowledge that clearly surpasses more than most who’ve made posts on this thread, else the salient points, a least in part, would have already been mentioned. My status as a dealer was included in a follow up post (adjacent to the first and performed within minutes). And since my handle is Neal Audio, well...

 

I entered this business because I love music and high end audio. I was retired before this… traveling the world. So keep treating good dealers like this and pretty soon there won’t be any left. Then you all can buy-test-fail-sell-repeat on the hamster wheel like so many do.

Going forward, I’ll certainly list my line card in my signature and happy to so. It was left out before since I felt it obviously benefited me… but okay.

Some users might find my experience valuable. For those that don’t, why not just click that ignore button. Here are the instructions:

1)  Place your mouse cursor over the profile on the left.
2)  Click “Ignore User.”

I’ve made a screen shot to make it easy.

[Paul R]

7 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

^ Added:

 

Finishes are limited with other brands, but Vandersteen has a pretty good selection. It's important to note that some of the available finishes aren't shown on the Sub Three product page, so use the Quatro page to see them all.

 

https://www.vandersteen.com/products/vandersteen-sub-three

 

Vandersteen speakers are hand made in America. Even the drivers are made in Minnesota.

 

The picture shows my Harbeth P3ESR's with a Sub Three in black. I'm an AD for both REL and Vandersteen. People always ask what stand that is... it's made by SolidSteel (Italy). 

 

You can keep the subs, but I do love my P-3ESRs. I play em with the grills on though. The difference in the sound is so minute, I would rather have the grills on, just for looks. 

 

-Paul

 

[Neal.Audio]

^ I prefer the industrial look.😀

 

Holographic sounding near field, right? I've been testing them in HT and can't find anything in that role that sounds better. Like a magic trick (without a center). The voices hang right in the middle right on top of the TV screen.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

Some inexcusable comments here, unwarranted and unearned. And since at least one obvious troll comment was flagged and went unchecked by CA, I believe allowing it gives me the freedom to respond.

It seems reasonable that enthusiasts don't want this board gummed up with propaganda from dealers. In my 34 years as a consumer of high end audio, less than one of those years has been spent as a dealer… and so I understand the sentiment. Yet my posts have been transparent, and at least some users have found them helpful.

In my comments about the Sub Threes, the language wouldn’t be any different than if I weren’t a dealer. My first two pairs of Vandersteen speakers were purchased in 1985, and I know the brand pretty well... demonstrated product knowledge that clearly surpasses more than most who’ve made posts on this thread, else the salient points, a least in part, would have already been mentioned. My status as a dealer was included in a follow up post (adjacent to the first and performed within minutes). And since my handle is Neal Audio, well...

 

I entered this business because I love music and high end audio. I was retired before this… traveling the world. So keep treating good dealers like this and pretty soon there won’t be any left. Then you all can buy-test-fail-sell-repeat on the hamster wheel like so many do.

Going forward, I’ll certainly list my line card in my signature and happy to so. It was left out before since I felt it obviously benefited me… but okay.

Some users might find my experience valuable. For those that don’t, why not just click that ignore button. Here are the instructions:

1)  Place your mouse cursor over the profile on the left.
2)  Click “Ignore User.”

I’ve made a screen shot to make it easy.

 

Just a few words of advice. Most people around here like information. People who give (information) are looked upon very well and welcomed in the community. It’s the takers who only seem to be here for their own gain that people have issues with. Not pointing fingers at you here. 

 

For the most part your comments were fine. I was a bit suspect at the statement about Vandersteen prices going up soon, as if to encourage a buy it now mentality. I don’t know you so I don’t have much to go on. I have to make assumptions. 

 

My advice to you is to take a deep breath and show people who you really are. Based on your experience in life, I’m willing to bet you have thick skin and nerves of steel. Don’t let a couple comments get under that skin. Nobody is killing puppies or saving babies around here. 

 

I and most others will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your comments are meant to be helpful. I’m very aware of Vandersteen speakers but not that sub, so thanks. 

 

The guidlines for people in the industry posting here are not to discuss products you sell or manufacture unless asked a direct question about them or you can clear something up. That said, some industry participants have been here for over ten years and have given back so much to this community that they’ve earned a little leeway with respect to the guidlines. 

 

Once we get to know you and see you as part of the community, we’ll be much more accepting of posts that may toe the line. 

 

No need to put all your brands in your signature. It would be too long. A link to your site is good, this way people know exactly what you sell if they want to click through. 

 

Have a great evening. 

[Neal.Audio]

^ Thanks CA. Signature updated. And yes, extremely small fry compared to my history... yet won't be bullied. Hopefully that sounds reasonable.

 

I'll try to help where I can without sounding like propaganda.

 

**************************

 

Moving on... I forgot to mention that the Vandy external crossover (M5-HP) can be used with other subs (such as REL). Their won't be room correction, but the mains amp still gets unloaded. This is a good solution for people that already have other subs or want to stay at a much lower price point than the Sub Three.

 

Since some people are already implementing the crossovers in other subs, this year Vandersteen has also bumped the price by $300 on the crossovers when not purchased with Vandy speakers.

 

Just received the new price sheet today and there's no price jump on the Sub Threes.

[TubeLover]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I really should give Wendell a call. I was there several years ago, but i should setup a specific listening session. 

You should definitely follow through on that Chris! Have them provide you a proper demo of the 20.7's, and 30.7's. Done right, well integrated with subwoofers, these can be magical! If only I had the room I would own 20.7's today. And if I had even more room, and the means, 30.7's. The Absolute Sound probably said it best:

 

20.7 - 2014 “Product of the Year”
The Absolute Sound magazine, January 2015

“…fully competitive with some of the most expensive loudspeakers on the planet, for a fraction of the cost.”

 

JC

[Paul R]

4 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

^ I prefer the industrial look.😀

 

Holographic sounding near field, right? I've been testing them in HT and can't find anything in that role that sounds better. Like a magic trick (without a center). The voices hang right in the middle right on top of the TV screen.

Oh yeah, a simple pair of them is much better than most surround systems. Just spot on perfect.

 

I actually only tried near field listening with them just a couple weeks ago.  I think my jaw hit the floor. They do have an ancestry that might account for that though.

 

[Neal.Audio]

^ My sentiments exactly. Within minutes of hearing them for the first time, I immediately got on the phone and chain-called my audio friends... they thought I'd lost my marbles. Then stayed up all night that first night just listening. 

 

It’s a mystery why they're off the chain in HT. I even tried the 30.2s (switching back and forth over a period of months) and they couldn't compare in that role. I can only theorize that it's their holographic performance and voice reproduction... and so much of HT is voice. And less information (and the P3's certainly have less than the 30.2s) is somehow better in HT? Dunno. Maybe I'll never know.

 

If you don't have a HT processor dialed in, even for two channel, you're missing out. I tried the Bricasti M1 SE DAC and the Marantz AV8805 destroyed it in that role. Never once do I ever have to pause and rewind to understand dialogue. 

 

I'm considering adding some P3ESRs for the surrounds, but not so sure. Crazy overkill when you consider the cost of fancy stands? Maybe I'll just go with Vandersteen 1Ci speakers for their time alignment and accuracy in that role. I'll try that this week. Should be a good experience! 😀

 

Are you using any surrounds? 

[esldude]

9 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@esldude Which Sound Lab speakers do you think would be a good fit in my room?

 

 

Most of my years with them have been in a long narrow room with them close to the sidewalls.  I've heard them elsewhere in wider rooms etc.  My experience has all been with A1 and A3 (at one time M1 and M3) sizes.  Mine are A3 sized, but mounted on steel frames they now only use for more expensive models.  I have heard the newer mylar on them and it is a benefit. 

 

So just eyeballing your room, and this is iffy for good advice, I would place the inner edge about where the inner edge of the speakers are in the picture.  Probably about that far from the rear wall too.  Maybe a little further out from the rear.  So the question is how tall can they be without hitting the sloped ceiling.  A3's are 6ft 2.5 inches.  A1's are 6 ft 10.25 inches.  They make one called the Audiophile 545 only 56 inches tall.  Whether it is worth getting the Ultimate series which appear to be the same panels in better frames depends upon the cost.  

 

They basically make the A1, A3 and 545 sizes in all the various trim levels.  There might also be a few other differences in transformers and are differences in the frame.  

 

The Quads might fit your room with the sloping ceilings better.  I've not heard the 2912 series, while the 2812 looks to be mostly the old ESL63 with some updates.  You probably would want a sub added with those or at least the 2812.  I do think ultimately the Soundlabs are a better speaker than the Quads.  

 

I've heard lots of Maggies, and owned some the most recent however being the old 3.3R.  They may of course have improved, but they simply aren't the sound of some ESLs even though both are panels.  

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

On 3/13/2019 at 1:39 AM, esldude said:

Most of my years with them have been in a long narrow room with them close to the sidewalls.  I've heard them elsewhere in wider rooms etc.  My experience has all been with A1 and A3 (at one time M1 and M3) sizes.  Mine are A3 sized, but mounted on steel frames they now only use for more expensive models.  I have heard the newer mylar on them and it is a benefit. 

 

So just eyeballing your room, and this is iffy for good advice, I would place the inner edge about where the inner edge of the speakers are in the picture.  Probably about that far from the rear wall too.  Maybe a little further out from the rear.  So the question is how tall can they be without hitting the sloped ceiling.  A3's are 6ft 2.5 inches.  A1's are 6 ft 10.25 inches.  They make one called the Audiophile 545 only 56 inches tall.  Whether it is worth getting the Ultimate series which appear to be the same panels in better frames depends upon the cost.  

 

They basically make the A1, A3 and 545 sizes in all the various trim levels.  There might also be a few other differences in transformers and are differences in the frame.  

 

The Quads might fit your room with the sloping ceilings better.  I've not heard the 2912 series, while the 2812 looks to be mostly the old ESL63 with some updates.  You probably would want a sub added with those or at least the 2812.  I do think ultimately the Soundlabs are a better speaker than the Quads.  

 

I've heard lots of Maggies, and owned some the most recent however being the old 3.3R.  They may of course have improved, but they simply aren't the sound of some ESLs even though both are panels.  

 

 

Thanks a ton Dennis. 

 

I just got off the phone with someone who has experience with Sound Labs going back to the early 80s through today. He urged me to look elsewhere because of too many bad experiences for him and people he knows. All had similar issues with the products / company. 

 

Does anyone else have good or bad experience with Sound Labs?

[4est]

28 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thanks a ton Dennis. 

 

I just got off the phone with someone who has experience with Sound Labs going back to the early 80s through today. He urged me to look elsewhere because of too many bad experiences for him and people he knows. All had similar issues with the products / company. 

 

Does anyone else have good or bad experience with Sound Labs?

I've heard they had a bad run, but that they are strong now. I do not know the details, but Duke@ Audio Kinesis was a dealer.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, 4est said:

I've heard they had a bad run, but that they are strong now. I do not know the details, but Duke@ Audio Kinesis was a dealer.

I noticed the word "WAS" a dealer :~)

[4est]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I noticed the word "WAS" a dealer :~)

Sigh... He may very well still be. He has his own line now. I haven't spoken to him in years, and I know he moved out of the Chicago area.

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, 4est said:

Sigh... He may very well still be. He has his own line now. I haven't spoken to him in years, and I know he moved out of the Chicago area.

Ah thanks. I couldn't read your mind.

[4est]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Ah thanks. I couldn't read your mind.

Even as a former dealer, he likely knows...

[pippenainteasy]

What about the Tidal Audio Akira? Is that within the budget?

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/tidal-audio-akira-loudspeaker

 

It uses Accuton diamond tweeter and midrange drivers, and has very, very nice horizontal dispersion measurements. Only for a cool 215k

[heycarlos]

So this link doesn't match your question 100% but it might be some inspiration for flagship speakers to try from different vendors.

 

Someone on Quora posted a nice long collection of "Big Cabinet" speakers along with pics and:

https://www.quora.com/Does-anyone-miss-component-stereo-systems-with-giant-speaker-cabinets

[jcbenten]

11 hours ago, heycarlos said:

So this link doesn't match your question 100% but it might be some inspiration for flagship speakers to try from different vendors.

 

Someone on Quora posted a nice long collection of "Big Cabinet" speakers along with pics and:

https://www.quora.com/Does-anyone-miss-component-stereo-systems-with-giant-speaker-cabinets

That is a great link...Thank you.

[ShawnC]

Hey Chris, at Axpona PS Audio will be demoing their first speaker prototype, the AN3.  You may have been or not, following their Youtube videos on this speaker or on their forum, but here's some rough specs. AMT tweeter, AMT midrange, 12" side loaded woofer (Servo Controlled with DSP), 6" or 8" mid bass coupler.  About 200lbs, $12,000.  The AN2 and AN1 will be bigger and more expensive.  Availability maybe this fall.  

 

Here's a video with the actual speakers they'll be bringing to the show

 

[barrows]

Hey @The Computer Audiophile!  Some things to consider:

 

I would not allow the "full range" idea to stop you from considering speakers which are nearly full range.  The problem is, it is almost impossible (especially without a dedicated "perfect" room build) to get both true full range (flat to 20 Hz) performance AND good imaging from a single pair of speakers.  Generally, one can place the speakers for best imaging and tonality, OR, for best bass performance, but rarely will both things be accomplished.  I know that many folks have "issues" regarding sub woofers, but really, the addition of a sub allows for best performance.  I would suggest considering speakers which are nearly full range (with good output to 35 Hz or so) and then adding a single sub for the very lowest frequencies.  With a nearly full range pair of speakers it becomes relatively easy to integrate a single sub, because the the crossover to the sub can be set low enough that the output of the sub will not localize to its position (and the sub will not be playing anywhere near the critical mid range frequencies)-this approach gives a lot of flexibility in where one can place the sub.  I prefer JL audio for subs, but of course there are other good ones...  It amazes me how much a single, good sub, well set up, contributes to soundstage depth and ambience retrieval.

 

For the speakers, are even the Kaya series from Vivid out due to appearance?  Vivid speakers sound so good...

 

I am assuming that you want speakers which are good on all types of music, and on less than perfect recordings.  In my experience this leaves out speakers like Magico, and top level models from, Focal-which tend to sound absolutely fantastic on "perfect" recordings, but tend to be a bit hard sounding on anything but the best recordings, and much Rock or Pop music.  My suggestions are for high resolution speakers, which are still just forgiving enough to be good with less than perfect recordings, and should also match well with Constellation amplifiers.

 

Rockport, Avalon, Vivid, Wilson, KEF... 

[The Computer Audiophile]

21 minutes ago, barrows said:

Hey @The Computer Audiophile!  Some things to consider:

 

I would not allow the "full range" idea to stop you from considering speakers which are nearly full range.  The problem is, it is almost impossible (especially without a dedicated "perfect" room build) to get both true full range (flat to 20 Hz) performance AND good imaging from a single pair of speakers.  Generally, one can place the speakers for best imaging and tonality, OR, for best bass performance, but rarely will both things be accomplished.  I know that many folks have "issues" regarding sub woofers, but really, the addition of a sub allows for best performance.  I would suggest considering speakers which are nearly full range (with good output to 35 Hz or so) and then adding a single sub for the very lowest frequencies.  With a nearly full range pair of speakers it becomes relatively easy to integrate a single sub, because the the crossover to the sub can be set low enough that the output of the sub will not localize to its position (and the sub will not be playing anywhere near the critical mid range frequencies)-this approach gives a lot of flexibility in where one can place the sub.  I prefer JL audio for subs, but of course there are other good ones...  It amazes me how much a single, good sub, well set up, contributes to soundstage depth and ambience retrieval.

 

For the speakers, are even the Kaya series from Vivid out due to appearance?  Vivid speakers sound so good...

 

I am assuming that you want speakers which are good on all types of music, and on less than perfect recordings.  In my experience this leaves out speakers like Magico, and top level models from, Focal-which tend to sound absolutely fantastic on "perfect" recordings, but tend to be a bit hard sounding on anything but the best recordings, and much Rock or Pop music.  My suggestions are for high resolution speakers, which are still just forgiving enough to be good with less than perfect recordings, and should also match well with Constellation amplifiers.

 

Rockport, Avalon, Vivid, Wilson, KEF... 

Thanks for the input Barrows. 

 

I'm working with someone now who is interested in purchasing my TADs. We are very close on price. As soon as they are sold I will have to make the final decision on which speakers will replace them. 

 

It's so tough to decide, but I'm leaning toward one currently. Mum is the word for now. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

OK guys, I just sent the TAD CR1 speakers on their way to their new owner!

 

Time to make a decision on new speakers because the Focal Sopra 1 speakers I have temporarily just don't cut it compared to the CR1!