New HDPLEX 200W LPS

[LTG2010]

31 minutes ago, rickca said:

If you get the 400W ATX LPS you don't need a DC-ATX unit.  Make sense?

Pretty much so, it also depends on the make up of the 400W, is it a single rail with a built in DC to DC converter, or multi rail.

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

I"m guessing for your Dell server, but generally, on a high powered set up, you might have an 8 pin plus 4 pin, for CPU plus 8 pin for PCIE graphics high power cards. I would just connect the 24 pin plus CPU. The CPU will benefit from its own rail, the NVME can be powered from the 24pin.

 

Thanks! No, I'm toying with the idea of a custom fanless Roon Server, running Audiolinux in RAM.

[rickca]

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Not sure if ATX voltages (12, 5, 3.3) derived from same rail, or separate rails?

Good question.  You will need to ask HDPLEX about their 400W ATX LPS.

[rickca]

20 minutes ago, austinpop said:

btw - is the LT30451 equal/better/worse than the celebrated LT3045 regulator?

See my post

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=896924

 

[austinpop]

6 minutes ago, rickca said:

See my post

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=896924

 

 

Thanks a lot for the pointer!

 

Now I'm a bit confused again, because the slide on VIOC says this:

• LDO intelligently controls upstream switching regulator to regulate the LDO’s differential voltage (VIN – VOUT) to either a constant voltage or an adaptive voltage as a function of ILOAD

I thought high-quality linear PSUs did not use switching regulators, even if they are upstream of a linear regulator like the LT3045-1. Which suggests that the HDPlex uses switching regulators on these rails? I know - a question best asked to Larry. Just surprised to see this.

[LTG2010]

31 minutes ago, rickca said:

If you get the 400W ATX LPS you don't need a DC-ATX unit.  Make sense?

Pretty much so, it also depends on the make up of the 400W, is it a single rail with a built in DC to DC converter, or multi rail.

[octaviars]

25 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Which suggests that the HDPlex uses switching regulators on these rails?

 

The big span of output voltages on the new HD Plex (3.3V/5V/7.5V/9V/12V/15V) from the LT3045 board would be impossible when the input to the board is 16V and needs a pre regulator as the voltage drop is so big. A switching DC/DC converter can do big voltage drops without producing much heat.

 

If this is done right it should work and not make much difference from a true linear supply.

 

Here is what John Swenson wrote about it.

 

 

 

[rickca]

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Which suggests that the HDPlex uses switching regulators on these rails?

Yes.  See this post from Sbooster earlier in this thread.  

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=896553

 

[rickca]

17 hours ago, FredericV said:

I still have a brand new 200VA hdplex replacement and it's also bad.

It's clear from your earlier post that you are talking about a 'brand new replacement' for an older HDPLEX supply ... you do not have one of the latest HDPLEX 200W LPS which is the topic of this thread.

 

You got this replacement supply back in November 2017.  The latest HDPLEX 200W LPS didn't start shipping until November 2018.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=894438

 

 

 

 

[austinpop]

14 minutes ago, octaviars said:

 

The big span of output voltages on the new HD Plex (3.3V/5V/7.5V/9V/12V/15V) from the LT3045 board would be impossible when the input to the board is 16V and needs a pre regulator as the voltage drop is so big. A switching DC/DC converter can do big voltage drops without producing much heat.

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, rickca said:

Yes.  See this post from Sbooster earlier in this thread.  

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=896553

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. I'll shut up now and go back and read the thread from the beginning.

[Solid-State]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

Could someone please summarize how to apply audiophile best practices (for example, power CPU separately from mobo?) to best utilize something like this (the HDPlex 400W PSU):

From what I can tell, the standard ATX set is 1x24pin, 2x8pin, and 1x4pin connectors. For a headless, fanless, server, which will only have an NVMe Optane SSD and a good network adapter (say the JCAT Net, powered by an external 5V PSU), which of the Molex'es will I need for the server? 24-pin to mobo, 4-pin to CPU, 8-pin for PCIe?

 

I am fairly clueless when it comes to ATX, so feel free to educate me.

http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2832&sid=a121cb041ebb1d38d1f79ed615aea1e0

[octaviars]

This is what John wrote regarding DC/DC converters as there will be some of those in the new etherREGEN. 

 

"First off some clarifications about the differences between SMPS and DC/DC switching regulators. An SMPS plugs into the mains, it chops up the mains voltage into high frequency pulses, feeds that through a transformer, on the other side rectifies the high frequency pulses coming from the transformer, filters it into fairly clean DC, measures the DC and sends a feedback signal through another transformer or optical coupler to the front end to modify the pulse width so the DC output voltage is correct.

 

These have low level high frequency noise on the output AND input, but also have both high impedance and low impedance leakage current from the AC line to the DC output. This is what causes a lot of the issues with SMPS, NOT the high frequency noise on the output.

 

A DC/DC converter does NOT connect to the AC mains, its input is DC from some other power supply. Their purpose is to convert one DC voltage to another (either up or down). Their big advantage over a linear regulator is that the POWER is constant, not the current. With a linear regulator the current going in is the same as coming out. With a switching DC/DC converter the current going in depends on the power on the output.

 

Say for example you have 10V coming in and you want 1 volt coming out. If your load takes 1 amp, a linear regulator will need 10V at one amp on the input, that means 9 watts of power are dissipated in the regulator (ie a BIG heat sink). With a DC/DC converter the power on the output is 1 watt (1V x 1A = 1W). So on the input it takes 1W / 10V = 0.1A. Now in reality the converters are not 100% efficient, maybe say 85%, so the power needed by the input will be a little higher, in this case 1.15W, so the input current is 0.15A. This means the DC/DC converter is dissipating 0.15W instead of 9W, 60 times lower!

 

The DC/DC converter DOES have high frequency output noise, but it is usually at a much higher frequency than an SMPS. SMPS usually run at 40KHz to 70KH, DC/DC converters usually run at 500KHz to 1MHz. This is a big difference. At 60KHz a filter is fairly large and costs some money. The same amount of attenuation at 1MHz takes very small very inexpensive components. The result is that IF you use a filter on the output, you can get a huge attenuation for very small board spaceand cost when using a DC/DC converter. Of course you DO have to spring for the filter, very cost constrained devices usually don't.

 

The DC/DC converter does NOT create any extra leakage since it is not connected to the mains. Whatever leakage exists from the power supply is still there, the DC/DC converter does not attenuate it, but it doesn't increase it either.

 

With a DC/DC converter you can always add a linear regulator after the converter, good ones can decrease the high frequency noise from the converter by 80-100dB. So a combination of the filter AND a linear regulator reduces the high frequency output to much less than the inherent noise of the regulator, it is essentially gone. So if properly implemented a DC/DC converter does not have any down side and it drastically reduces the amount of heat that has to be dissipated.

 

All that said, very low cost devices are not going to go to any of those measures, they are going to use a cheap DC/DC converter and and feed the output directly to the chips.

 

On the etherRegen, there ARE a few DC/DC converters in the design. But they have the good filters and very good linear regulators after the converter. I have tried using some very sensitive test equipment and have not seen ANY sign of the DC/DC converter on the final DC.

 

One other issue with DC/DC converters is EMI, the converter can radiate high frequency signals that can be picked up by other traces on the board. I am using some very special converters that have extremely low EMI, I can JUST barely measure it, where I can measure strong emission from other converters. Even though the EMI is so low I am laying out the board so that pickup by other signals is quite small. Again I have not been able to see any hint of this in prototypes.

 

The whole reason for using the DC/DC converters is to drastically cut down on the amount of heat the box has to dissipate, AND the high cost of getting the heat from the regulators TO the heatsinks.  I'm quite confidant that this is done in such a way that there will be NO impact of this on the operation of the device.

 

John S."

[rickca]

OK I need to get off AS and do some actual listening now.  

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

OK I need to get off AS and do some actual listening now.  

 

You mean get off AS and sit on ASS? 😛

[Lebouwsky]

5 hours ago, LTG2010 said:

You now have 3 connections, 3.3V, 5V, 12V for your HDplex rails, the black is common on the board so all 3 power supply rails ground can be joined together or daisy chained, with the motherboard black ground cables.

Similar principle for the 4 pin 12V this will connect to the 4th HDplex (12V rail) seperately powering CPU.

 

This is really helpful for understanding atx, thanks for that. It raises more questions though

 

Powered like you suggest, does the ssd now gets it’s own ‘clean’ 5v or is it still wise to power is separately?

 

 Second, I cant find any 4 or 8 pin cpu power on my Supermicro X10SBA, is the cpu in this case fed by one of the 12v 24pin atx? And if so, could that be a disadvantage soundwise?

 

I can imagine a very low tdp server board like this mine (about 10 watt iddle, 15 watt at use) doesn’t need it’s own dc (4 pin) or even double (8 pin) to deliver the juice like a very powerhungry cpu does. But it’s just a guess. Could not find any info about that on the internet.

[LTG2010]

38 minutes ago, Lebouwsky said:

This is really helpful for understanding atx, thanks for that. It raises more questions though

 

Powered like you suggest, does the ssd now gets it’s own ‘clean’ 5v or is it still wise to power is separately?

 

 Second, I cant find any 4 or 8 pin cpu power on my Supermicro X10SBA, is the cpu in this case fed by one of the 12v 24pin atx? And if so, could that be a disadvantage soundwise?

 

I can imagine a very low tdp server board like this mine (about 10 watt iddle, 15 watt at use) doesn’t need it’s own dc (4 pin) or even double (8 pin) to deliver the juice like a very powerhungry cpu does. But it’s just a guess. Could not find any info about that on the internet.

When you Use the 24 pin atx, then the 12V 4 pin atx which you are now using to power the entire board diverts to the CPU. from the motherboard manual:

''These power connectors meet the SSI EPS 12V specification''

There is a benefit to this as the CPU with its own regulated rail results in a fuller sound, there are some posts from @nuno of Innuos confirming the sound improvement.

However in the Zenith SE, the 24 pin atx is fed from a single rail via a pico (DC to DC converter), what I'm suggesting goes one stage further with 3 separate rails for the 24 pin atx. They don't have to be very powerful rails on a low power motherboard but we know from experience from posters powering low power items with massive SR7's that the better the supply (not necessarily bigger) the more the benefits.

Its important to power the ssd separately with it's own 5 Volt supply otherwise noise from the SSD will feedback- doesn't need to be from the HDplex, but that's 3 rails in total if you use a dc to dc converter for the 24 pin or 5 rails as I'm suggesting.

The new Statement has full regulated linear atx rails on an outboard PSU I think 8 in total.

[FredericV]

15 hours ago, rickca said:

It's clear from your earlier post that you are talking about a 'brand new replacement' for an older HDPLEX supply ... you do not have one of the latest HDPLEX 200W LPS which is the topic of this thread.

 

You got this replacement supply back in November 2017.  The latest HDPLEX 200W LPS didn't start shipping until November 2018.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=894438

 

My point is: don't be naive and assume everything is automagically fixed.

 

[rickca]

Introductory notes re HDPLEX 200W LPS 

 

I thought some consolidated notes from my earlier posts would be useful for people considering this LPS.

 

Unboxing

 

The orange 110V/220V switch comes set to the default 220V.  Make sure you set it appropriately.

 

The unit comes with the following DC cables:

2 x 3-pin Neutrik XLR to 5.5mmx2.5mm 

2 x 3-pin Neutrik XLR to 5.5mmx2.1mm

It's difficult to visually distinguish between the 5.5x2.1 and 5.5x2.5 cables.  I've recommended that HDPLEX either label or color code these cables.

 

You will need to supply an IEC AC power cord.  

 

A 3-pin Neutrik XLR to 7.4mmx5.0mm cable is provided for use with the HDPLEX 400W HiFi DC-ATX.  I've written a post about my early experience using one here

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=916527

 

The first time I tried my 200W LPS, I had no power on any rails.  There is no power on LED.  This was quickly resolved with support from Larry.  Right beside the R-core transformer, there is a daughter card with two rows of pins that had come loose during shipping.  I removed the top cover (6 screws) and reseated the daughter card.  Problem solved and no subsequent problems.

 

Larry advises that some minor changes in the next batch (cage and lock pin) will resolve this problem. 

 

Design

 

There is a copper coating on the R-core transformer to reduce EMI emissions.

 

The rails have no shared ground so it's a true separate rail design.

 

The standard unit has fixed 19V and 12V rails.  HDPLEX will ship your unit with 2 x 12V rails if you prefer.

 

The 2A adjustable voltage rails each use 4 x LT3045-1.  LT3045-1 has VIOC while LT3045 does not.  The VIOC Pin controls the upstream regulator to minimize power dissipation.  For more details about the VIOC feature, see this Analog Devices presentation starting at page 26.

https://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/ADI_LDO_General_Presentation_2018Apr1.pdf

 

The input voltage is always one V higher than the target value.  For example, if the user sets the adjustable rail at 9V, the voltage input for the LT3045-1 is 10V.  So the actual power consumption is always 2W on the circuit.  It is almost impossible to make a effective heatsink for TDP 24W in the tiny surface area of the LT3045 chip.  The adjustable rails go from 3.3V to 15V.

 

Detailed specs are available on the HDPLEX website including a description of the protection circuit, schematics and ripple tests.

 https://www.hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-200w-linear-power-supply-for-pc-audio-and-ce-device.html

 

Support

 

Support from Larry has been outstanding.  He is very responsive to email ([email protected]).

 

[Lebouwsky]

For anyone who is interested in using the hdplex 200w as an “atx-ish” power supply (like @LTG2010 has suggested): a cable like this is needed to connect to the 4 rails. I have asked Ghent if they’re capable of building such a cable and will keep you guys informed. My goal is to implement JSSG360 with an as low as possible AWG quality cable

[rickca]

If you plan to use the HDPLEX 400W DC-ATX with an HDPLEX 200W LPS ...

 

I'd strongly recommend you get a 24-pin ATX extension cable like this if you have something like a mid-tower case.  The 24-pin cable supplied with the DC-ATX is only 21 cm which makes placement of the DC-ATX in the case difficult.  The extension cable gives you a lot more flexibility.  I was able to put the DC-ATX on top of my Seasonic power supply near the bottom of the case.  

 

I prefer the individually sleeved ones like this

http://www.performance-pcs.com/ppcs-low-profile-extension-cable-series-24pin-atx.html

 

but you can get an inexpensive ugly one like this

https://www.amazon.com/StarTech-8-Inch-Power-Extension-ATX24POWEXT/dp/B000FL60AI

 

BTW performance-pcs.com is also a good place to buy Akasa cases.  The X7D is only $140 there ... cheaper than Amazon or Newegg.

[tboooe]

21 hours ago, austinpop said:

Not sure if ATX voltages (12, 5, 3.3) derived from same rail, or separate rails?

I have the 400w ATX and would be happy to open it up to take pics for someone smarter in electronics to see if they can figure this out.  I did attach 2 pics I just took.  The first one shows the various voltages (35, 20, 15, 10) on the pcb.  The second pics shows each pair of wires from the pcb and transformer going into separate blocks.  

[austinpop]

46 minutes ago, tboooe said:

someone smarter in electronics

 

≠ me!

 

 

[bobfa]

6 hours ago, rickca said:

Introductory notes re HDPLEX 200W LPS 

 

I thought some consolidated notes from my earlier posts would be useful for people considering this LPS.

 

Unboxing

 

The orange 110V/220V switch comes set to the default 220V.  Make sure you set it appropriately.

 

The unit comes with the following DC cables:

2 x 3-pin Neutrik XLR to 5.5mmx2.5mm 

2 x 3-pin Neutrik XLR to 5.5mmx2.1mm

It's difficult to visually distinguish between the 5.5x2.1 and 5.5x2.5 cables.  I've recommended that HDPLEX either label or color code these cables.

 

You will need to supply an IEC AC power cord.  

 

A 3-pin Neutrik XLR to 7.4mmx5.0mm cable is provided for use with the HDPLEX 400W HiFi DC-ATX.  I've written a post about my early experience using one here

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/46748-new-hdplex-200w-lps/?do=findComment&comment=916527

 

The first time I tried my 200W LPS, I had no power on any rails.  There is no power on LED.  This was quickly resolved with support from Larry.  Right beside the R-core transformer, there is a daughter card with two rows of pins that had come loose during shipping.  I removed the top cover (6 screws) and reseated the daughter card.  Problem solved and no subsequent problems.

 

Larry advises that some minor changes in the next batch (cage and lock pin) will resolve this problem. 

 

Design

 

There is a copper coating on the R-core transformer to reduce EMI emissions.

 

The rails have no shared ground so it's a true separate rail design.

 

The standard unit has fixed 19V and 12V rails.  HDPLEX will ship your unit with 2 x 12V rails if you prefer.

 

The 2A adjustable voltage rails each use 4 x LT3045-1.  LT3045-1 has VIOC while LT3045 does not.  The VIOC Pin controls the upstream regulator to minimize power dissipation.  For more details about the VIOC feature, see this Analog Devices presentation starting at page 26.

https://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/ADI_LDO_General_Presentation_2018Apr1.pdf

 

The input voltage is always one V higher than the target value.  For example, if the user sets the adjustable rail at 9V, the voltage input for the LT3045-1 is 10V.  So the actual power consumption is always 2W on the circuit.  It is almost impossible to make a effective heatsink for TDP 24W in the tiny surface area of the LT3045 chip.  The adjustable rails go from 3.3V to 15V.

 

Detailed specs are available on the HDPLEX website including a description of the protection circuit, schematics and ripple tests.

 https://www.hdplex.com/hdplex-fanless-200w-linear-power-supply-for-pc-audio-and-ce-device.html

 

Support

 

Support from Larry has been outstanding.  He is very responsive to email ([email protected]).

 

Quick suggestion.  Edit the lead post in the thread and put this info into it.  

[FredericV]

5 hours ago, Lebouwsky said:

For anyone who is interested in using the hdplex 200w as an “atx-ish” power supply (like @LTG2010 has suggested): a cable like this is needed to connect to the 4 rails. I have asked Ghent if they’re capable of building such a cable and will keep you guys informed. My goal is to implement JSSG360 with an as low as possible AWG quality cable

 

ATX also specifies negative voltages on the connector:

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/blog/convert-atx-psu-to-bench-supply.html

 

Pin 12 and 18

[Lebouwsky]

2 hours ago, FredericV said:

 

ATX also specifies negative voltages on the connector:

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/blog/convert-atx-psu-to-bench-supply.html

 

Pin 12 and 18

Thanks for that Frederic. Not sure what negative voltage means in dc, but this seems more complex then I previously thought. I’ll wait for Ghent to respond my request first.