André Gosselin Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 51 minutes ago, jacobacci said: I am seeing some strange behaviour re. reproduction of some MQA tracks, specifically the two versions of Christian Eggen, Carl Nielsen Piano Music. There are two versions on Qobuz both are marked as "CD", one costs 9.99€ the other 13€ Neither is marked as MQA. Not in the Qobuz app, not in the Roon interface Streamed to dCS Rossini from Roon, they both show the MQA logo and expand to 24/44.1. However the Roon signal path shows MQA authenticated 16/44.1 Played to a Hifiberry Digi+, Roon Signal path also shows MQA authenticated 16/44.1, however they get expanded to 24/88.2 I played the same album streamed to two different renderers from Qobuz Sublime+, using Roon. 1- On a Moon Mind v2, Roon signal path is identical to your top screenshot. 2- On an ultrarendu connected through USB to an iFi Pro iDSDdac, the Roon signal path is identical to your second screenshot, except that the "MQA Core Decoder" shows "88.2 kHz 24 bit with MQA Signaling". Link to comment
Popular Post austinpop Posted September 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 24, 2019 1 hour ago, jacobacci said: I am seeing some strange behaviour re. reproduction of some MQA tracks, specifically the two versions of Christian Eggen, Carl Nielsen Piano Music. There are two versions on Qobuz both are marked as "CD", one costs 9.99€ the other 13€ Neither is marked as MQA. Not in the Qobuz app, not in the Roon interface Streamed to dCS Rossini from Roon, they both show the MQA logo and expand to 24/44.1. However the Roon signal path shows MQA authenticated 16/44.1 Played to a Hifiberry Digi+, Roon Signal path also shows MQA authenticated 16/44.1, however they get expanded to 24/88.2 Playing the same file from Tidal via Roon Streamed to dCS Rossini from Roon, the Roon signal path shows MQA authenticated 24/44.1. Rossini also shows MQA 24/44.1 Played to a Hifiberry Digi+, Roon Signal path also shows MQA authenticated 24/44.1, however they get expanded to 24/88.2 Something seems strange here. Either Qobuz is using a different stream than Tidal, or the Roon signal path information is wrong. At any rate the MQA authentication thing does not seem to be working consistently here. Can someone at Roon and / or at Qobuz shed some light on this? BTW, I have not been able to locate an "original" of this album on 2L. It seems to be available uniquely through Todal and Qobuz. @jacobacci congratulations, you've discovered the abomination that is known as MQA CD. This rare creature was thought to be extinct but has been popping up more and more. Jokes aside, MQA CD is a lesser-known variant of the MQA products. Unlike full-fat MQA where an "original" hi-res stream is encoded into a 24-bit container, MQA CD is the same idea, but where it is encoded into a 16/44.1 container. In addition, if you browse back on this thread, mention was made of 2L's decision to distribute only MQA content to streaming services - full-fat 24-bit MQA to Tidal, and MQA CD format to others like Qobuz. Last I remember, Qobuz were going to look into it to see if they could get 2L and other offenders to supply "pure" Redbook instead of MQA content. Clearly, there are still albums where this has not happened yet. Viewed in this light, all your screenshots make perfect sense. Rossini can do full MQA decoding, while the HifiBerry Digi+ is not MQA. Here's what I see from each screenshot. Screenshot 1: Since this is an 16/44.1 MQA CD stream, Rossini detects the MQA flag along with the info that the decoded content is 24/44.1. If you look on the Rossini display, you should see the M1 filter engaged, and the display should show 24/44.1 Screenshot 2: In this case, since you have Roon core decoding enabled in the device settings, Roon is doing the first unfold, which makes it output 24/88.2. Screenshot 3: Tidal is serving a 24/44.1 full-fat MQA stream, which the Rossini detects, and decodes to the original 24/44.1 stream Screenshot 4: Roon core decoding is unfolding the 24/44.1 from Tidal to 24/88.2. No mysteries, just disappointment that this scourge is not yet expunged from Qobuz. EDIT: If there is one mystery, it's that Roon did not recognize that the album was 16/44.1 MQA from the metadata. But that's a minor nit in light of the larger issue. The Computer Audiophile and Mark Dirac 2 My Audio Setup Link to comment
charlesphoto Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 I have a question: just how is Qobuz pronounced? Thanks in advance, Charles SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)> LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 16 minutes ago, charlesphoto said: I have a question: just how is Qobuz pronounced? Thanks in advance, Charles Co-buzz Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 My McIntosh does not decode MQA either, due to that ROON shows it as decoded to 24/88 as well. No electron left behind. Link to comment
left channel Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 1 hour ago, charlesphoto said: I have a question: just how is Qobuz pronounced? Thanks in advance, Charles 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Co-buzz And it's not a French word! Article: Why is Qobuz called Qobuz? In the beginning there was… the qobuz! A two-stringed horsehair violin, played with a bow. Allow us to explain.https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/info/actualites/why-is-qobuz-called-qobuz17487 Video: Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
jacobacci Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 6 hours ago, austinpop said: @jacobacci congratulations, you've discovered the abomination that is known as MQA CD. This rare creature was thought to be extinct but has been popping up more and more. Thanks @austinpopand others for your explanations. I came to the same conclusion, thinking about the issue in the light of day. In the meantime I have downloaded Christian Eggen's Chaconne from the 2L MQA Test bench. The file there interestingly is a 24/44.1 source file which via MQA expands to 24/44.1. I am wondering what the MQA unfold is supposed to do in this case. 🙂 The Qobuz MQA CD issue was much more clear in the case I described here, as the file unfolds to 24/352 (from a 16/44.1 file!). There are a lot of people who discount the concerns re. DRM capabilities of MQA as a witchhunt. DRM is not even needed. The Christian Eggen album is only available in "full" (or rather "intended by MQA") resolution through Tidal. 2L have closed their own shop, where the albums used to be available for purchase at different resolutions. So I am locked into a Tidal subscription if I want to experience the example for the infamous white glove treatment the MQA creators cite as a reference case. I can't even purchase it on Tidal. Impossible to own the album. Similar to Kindle ebooks which one never owns and which can be recalled by amazon at any time. @David Craff do you happen to know what I actually get if I purchase the 13€ version of the Christian Eggen Nielsen on Qobuz. MQA CD or the full monty 24/44.1 MQA? Link to comment
jacobacci Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 7 hours ago, left channel said: After we informed Qobuz that the new 2L release of the Radka Toneff album Fairytales was causing problems like that, they removed it from their catalog. For best results, I recommend you listen to 2L MQA albums only via Tidal or Tidal/Roon, at least until we see what's in the next big Qobuz app update. I can still find Fairytales on Qobuz as MQA CD expanding to 176kHz Link to comment
left channel Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 7 hours ago, jacobacci said: I can still find Fairytales on Qobuz as MQA CD expanding to 176kHz Thank you. Where are you located? I cannot find it in the Qobuz USA catalog. In fact, I cannot find any of her albums. Search says "5 releases" but when I click on that her page contains none. (All five are on Tidal here.) As I mentioned Fairytales was removed after complaints, but apparently not everywhere, so if the 2L folks have accounts in their country it may still show up for them. Interesting. Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
André Gosselin Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, left channel said: Thank you. Where are you located? I cannot find it in the Qobuz USA catalog. In fact, I cannot find any of her albums. Search says "5 releases" but when I click on that her page contains none. (All five are on Tidal here.) As I mentioned Fairytales was removed after complaints, but apparently not everywhere, so if the 2L folks have accounts in their country it may still show up for them. Interesting. The album is available for download/streaming from Qobuz France: https://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/fairytales-original-master-edition-mqa-steve-dobrogosz-radka-toneff/czn9zsef6y7pc Link to comment
left channel Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 54 minutes ago, André Gosselin said: The album is available for download/streaming from Qobuz France: https://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/fairytales-original-master-edition-mqa-steve-dobrogosz-radka-toneff/czn9zsef6y7pc Thanks. Makes me wonder if that album was removed from the USA service for licensing reasons only, and not due to the MQA problems at all. I've cancelled my UK account, so haven't been checking on catalog differences lately. Radka Toneff was a wonderful talent, and her work really should be on all services. I no longer use my MQA DAC at all, but I hope the next big update to the Qobuz apps will include better support for these MQA CDs, and a better way to identify their format as well. Whether we like the idea or not, 2L, Odin Records, and probably others are working directly with Bob Stuart to release important remasters. David.. Qobuz, Hi-Res Music Evangelist 1 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
charlesphoto Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 14 hours ago, left channel said: And it's not a French word! Article: Why is Qobuz called Qobuz? In the beginning there was… the qobuz! A two-stringed horsehair violin, played with a bow. Allow us to explain.https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/info/actualites/why-is-qobuz-called-qobuz17487 Video: Cool, thanks for that. Any idea if qobuz can be used for a Scrabble word? SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)> LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. Link to comment
left channel Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, charlesphoto said: Cool, thanks for that. Any idea if qobuz can be used for a Scrabble word? 🙂 As the name of a musical instrument it was always OK, assuming this spelling is acceptable and that someone doesn't challenge it as a foreign word not in their dictionary. But in 2010 the Scrabble rules were changed to allow proper nouns as well, so as a trademarked brand name "Qobuz" is fair game now as well. David.. Qobuz, Hi-Res Music Evangelist 1 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
charlesphoto Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 9 minutes ago, left channel said: 🙂 As the name of a musical instrument it was always OK, assuming this spelling is acceptable and that someone doesn't challenge it as a foreign word not in their dictionary. But in 2010 the Scrabble rules were changed to allow proper nouns as well, so as a trademarked brand name "Qobuz" is fair game now as well. I never knew about the change in rules to proper nouns. I don't like it, but it might make it easier for my kids. SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)> LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. Link to comment
left channel Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, charlesphoto said: I never knew about the change in rules to proper nouns. I don't like it, but it might make it easier for my kids. I know, right? Don't get me started... 🙂 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
left channel Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 9 hours ago, jacobacci said: I can't even purchase it on Tidal. Impossible to own the album. Similar to Kindle ebooks which one never owns and which can be recalled by amazon at any time. @David Craff do you happen to know what I actually get if I purchase the 13€ version of the Christian Eggen Nielsen on Qobuz. MQA CD or the full monty 24/44.1 MQA? If you go to the store.tidal.com website you may find it for sale as a download. I see it in the USA available as MP3 or FLAC, with no indication as to what you'd be getting other than the "(MQA)" in the title, but I can't imagine the MP3 version would be MQA. Unlike my experience with Tidal, I expect that @David Craff and any Qobuz customer service rep will be able to give us a clear answer as to what's in the download offered by Qobuz. Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
David Craff Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 On 9/25/2019 at 8:28 AM, jacobacci said: @David Craff do you happen to know what I actually get if I purchase the 13€ version of the Christian Eggen Nielsen on Qobuz. MQA CD or the full monty 24/44.1 MQA? Hi, I checked your demand, we have two release : one at 13€ and one at 9,99€. The good one is at 9,99€. You have to know that The Orchard has bought back the label Phonofile. The release at 13€ come from Phonofile and will be take down soon. However the audio files are strictly the same. I added this to my account and check it with Roon la qualité : Qobuz Product Manager for Desktop, Web Player and Search Engine. Link to comment
firedog Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 Hi- Is the Qobuz app for Android geo restricted? It doesn't turn up for me in a search in PlayStore from my phone. If I go to the site through a Windows machine and a browser, the app appears at the app store, but says it's incompatible with my devices. I'm sure it's not; it's a Samsung s7 with all the updates. The iPad version of the app and the Windows version work fine on my other devices. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
jacobacci Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 On 9/25/2019 at 4:23 PM, left channel said: Where are you located? I am usually located in Switzerland, my Qobuz account is a French one. Link to comment
jacobacci Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 6 hours ago, David Craff said: You have to know that The Orchard has bought back the label Phonofile Thanks @David Craff Uh, the ugly Phonofile story. I had forgotten all about that one. Yes, the two files look the same to me. They also play exactly the same looking at the Roon signal path. There is quite a bit of fog surrounding this (and other MQA issues) though. The files I get streaming from Qobuz (Sublime+ subscriber) are 16/44.1 MQA, so they are CD MQA quality, expanding to whatever the metadata says. I understand these are the files you are getting from 2L in lieu of CD quality. My question was what I get if I purchase and download the file. Do I also get the CD MQA or the "full resolution" MQA, which would be 24/44.1 MQA in the case of Chritian Eggen / Carl Nielsen Piano Music 24/48 MQA in the case of Radka Toneff / Fairytales It would be extremely helpful, if Qobuz would clearly state what they are providing. At the moment MQA from Qobuz is very much a black box and a somewhat frustrating experience. Link to comment
David Craff Posted September 26, 2019 Share Posted September 26, 2019 4 hours ago, firedog said: Hi- Is the Qobuz app for Android geo restricted? It doesn't turn up for me in a search in PlayStore from my phone. If I go to the site through a Windows machine and a browser, the app appears at the app store, but says it's incompatible with my devices. I'm sure it's not; it's a Samsung s7 with all the updates. The iPad version of the app and the Windows version work fine on my other devices. Hi Yes, the app is only available on store where Qobuz is open. Qobuz Product Manager for Desktop, Web Player and Search Engine. Link to comment
Sal1950 Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 15 hours ago, David Craff said: Hi Yes, the app is only available on store where Qobuz is open. David, I see your active today so I only have 2 words for you please, Expand Multichannel "The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?" Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
David Craff Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 6 hours ago, Sal1950 said: David, I see your active today so I only have 2 words for you please, Expand Multichannel Hi, I'm active every day We are eager to expand our multi-channel product catalog but are currently dependent on what we receive from suppliers. Regards Sal1950 1 Qobuz Product Manager for Desktop, Web Player and Search Engine. Link to comment
David Craff Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 23 hours ago, jacobacci said: Thanks @David Craff Uh, the ugly Phonofile story. I had forgotten all about that one. Yes, the two files look the same to me. They also play exactly the same looking at the Roon signal path. There is quite a bit of fog surrounding this (and other MQA issues) though. The files I get streaming from Qobuz (Sublime+ subscriber) are 16/44.1 MQA, so they are CD MQA quality, expanding to whatever the metadata says. I understand these are the files you are getting from 2L in lieu of CD quality. My question was what I get if I purchase and download the file. Do I also get the CD MQA or the "full resolution" MQA, which would be 24/44.1 MQA in the case of Chritian Eggen / Carl Nielsen Piano Music 24/48 MQA in the case of Radka Toneff / Fairytales It would be extremely helpful, if Qobuz would clearly state what they are providing. At the moment MQA from Qobuz is very much a black box and a somewhat frustrating experience. It is not currently Qobuz's intention to offer MQA. Sal1950 1 Qobuz Product Manager for Desktop, Web Player and Search Engine. Link to comment
left channel Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 46 minutes ago, David Craff said: It is not currently Qobuz's intention to offer MQA. Yet Qobuz is offering MQA albums from 2L and Odin, intentionally or not. At least one of those even has "(MQA)" in the title provided by the label. Hence this this question: On 9/26/2019 at 7:57 AM, jacobacci said: My question was what I get if I purchase and download the file. Do I also get the CD MQA or the "full resolution" MQA, which would be 24/44.1 MQA in the case of Chritian Eggen / Carl Nielsen Piano Music 24/48 MQA in the case of Radka Toneff / Fairytales Can you or Customer Service answer this? I would not make a purchase without knowing whether the Neilsen/Eggen download is a 16/44.1 CD or an MQA CD. If it is an MQA CD like the streaming version, I assume it is in a 24/48 container (regardless of the difficulties his Roon setup had making sense of it), yet the album art on Qobuz says 44.1...so what is it? I believe the Toneff/Dobrogosz is an MQA CD in both streaming and download versions, in a 24/48 container unfolding to 24/176 or so, yes? In addition, as these 2L and Odin MQA releases are apparently not going away, I hope the Qobuz apps will be updated to stream them properly to all or most DACs. As you can see from the previous posts here, different apps and DACs give different unfolding results. Via the Qobuz desktop app, my Pro-Ject S2D cannot maintain a lock and audibly drops in and out of MQA and I cannot disable the feature. LMS/Squeezelite-X works better. Mark Dirac 1 Everyone wants to date my avatar. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now