Official Qobuz Issues Thread

[left channel]

30 minutes ago, #Yoda# said:

And now, that we know the discounts for many Qobuz HiRes albums think about how this business model can be sustainable. The gross margin for download reseller is usually around 20%. When Qobuz offers a discount of 40 - 60 % four Sublime subscribers like me, it means they subsidize their streaming service massively. See the numbers and draw your conclusions.

 

It's just a matter of time, Xandries financial strength and overall market position when Qobuz will reduce or stop this discount model. My tip: Take the discounts to download the albums you ever wanted to own in HiRes, get HiRes streaming quasi for free and enjoy the music.

 

It could be a temporary loss leader to increase market share, but I doubt it. This is a common business model, and should include padding for outliers (and I mean that in a good way) like you. The challenge is to predict at what price people like me subsidize you, with the Sublime+ subscription I mostly use for streaming. I will be changing to Studio, but they should have built padding into that too.

Back in the day I helped launch a mobile internet dial-up service that had a similar structure. Most people paid monthly or annually for a flat rate subscription, but only used it when traveling. Some had only that service and no other way to get their email, but still only accessed it every few days. (Wow...remember that? Even Steve Jobs never imagined we wouldn't be able to put our mobile devices down). Others dialed in once or twice day, but that was not a problem.

 

The few outliers that used the service constantly were never a financial problem, and it was fun sport to watch just how much they did dial in. If you asked them about it they would have said we were fools, because obviously everyone would take advantage of us and we would go broke. But anecdotes are not averages, and our operations were profitable. I've since advised businesses on similar models for other products and services.

 

[left channel]

15 minutes ago, #Yoda# said:

Maybe, you are correct with your general assumption, but you shouldn't forget that Qobuz hasn't been a profitable business in the resent years, if ever. Qobuz was insolvent not long ago.

The audio streaming market as such is not profitable for nearly all service providers and specifically the HiRes market, anyway if streaming or download is a very small niche with usually relatively old and hence more conservatively acting customers or user. I'm quite sure, Qobuz has in Europe a lot more HiRes download customers than streaming subscribers. 

 

There's no way for us to know, but since the insolvency, new ownership, and new pricing structure they've been projecting profitability within a specific time period, which is something we have not heard from their competitors as far as I know.

What makes audio streaming so unprofitable is the same as it was back in the early days of the internet and World Wide Web, except back then it was "chasing eyeballs" instead of ears. Qobuz may be getting a lot out of targeting fewer higher-margin customers instead of lots of ears, if they've modeled this correctly.

I could go on for hours about what goes into these models, but one simple example would be the value of selling a Sublime+ subscription in advance, instead of full-price downloads throughout the year. Even if the two numbers are equal, or even if the full-price downloads bring in more money, a net present value (NPV) calculation may show that getting the money sooner improves profitability when cost of capital is considered, not to mention helping with cash flow.

 

But how about I don't go on for hours? You can all thank me now. 🙂

[left channel]

22 minutes ago, wwc said:

So, is offline mode available only through Qobuz app?  Not through Roon?  

 

I'm only interested because I have heard that offline music cached provides better sound quality than directly streamed.

Have you found that to be the case?

 

And, I'm curious about how caching works?   When playing a track, or entire album, does it enter the cache?  So, for instance, if you started streaming a track for 20 seconds, and then restarted from the beginning, would it be playing from the cache or start over streaming again?

 

I have never used Roon, but I don't think so. I can tell you about the Qobuz app though. The Qobuz terminology can be confusing: what you described in your last paragraph is called "caching" or "buffering", but also stored in the cache directory are full tracks or albums you specifically select for "offline listening".

 

I believe the buffering is intended to play from cache if you restart, yes, if it works correctly that day, but to be clear "offline listening" is an entirely separate thing. For offline listening you select "Import" from the menu shown in the following image. "Import in..." allows you to select the sample rate so you can control data use and file sizes. Clear as mud now?

 

 

 

[left channel]

31 minutes ago, wwc said:

Thanks.  It appears Importing for caching is not an option through Roon.  I'll ask them if they plan to integrate that feature.

 

Until, that day comes, I wonder if restarting an album after letting it buffer into the cache for a period of  time would be an alternative method to play music from the cache?  Do you have any idea how long it typically takes for an entire album to cache?

 

This is assuming that to go to this trouble that the sq is better from the cache!

 

If you want offline listening, import the entire thing in the Qobuz app as I described, or buy the download to have it in Roon. I doubt they'll be adding offline listening to Roon, though I'd love to be wrong.

 

Playing with the other thing — the buffered stream — is a great way to drive yourself crazy with Qobuz, Tidal, or any streaming. Sometimes it does exactly what you wrote above, but other times restarting or clicking around in them results in freezing or other unexpected behavior. The software is trying to buffer to deal with all the problems of uneven internet and LAN delivery, and it's not a good idea to go monkeying around with the stream yourself too.

[left channel]

@luisma that certainly sounds like a bug. A key part of @ddetaey's answer is "playing at the same time". Please let us know if the problem goes away by itself, or if you have to clear the devices in your account control panel.

[left channel]

@luisma glad it went away after 10 minutes. Odd that you didn't have more than 3 devices in rotation anyway. The Qobuz system seems to see each instance as a separate device, and clearly the database wasn't updated quickly enough in your case. I expect that they will continue to improve the server side, just as they are working on improvements to the clients.  Also customer service: last month I received a reply about the US beta within two days, but I'm sure they're overwhelmed with new questions and new staffing in US right now.

I subscribe to Sublime+ in the UK, and a Studio plan with one month free in the US beta. If all goes well then later this year I will probably sign up for a year of Studio with two months free, and drop the UK account. Studio did not exist when I originally signed up in the UK, and I don't purchase enough downloads to make Sublime+ worthwhile. I'm able to "roam" in either country, so-to-speak; it's just signup and payment that are now tied to local addresses.

Great to hear the Qobuz USA team is roaming too! Thanks for representing. Anything new and interesting at the Florida Audio Expo from Qobuz or others? I'm planning my AXPONA schedule now.

[left channel]

58 minutes ago, mav52 said:

 

Hey Bob what is A+3

 

Audirvana Plus. The latest versions are Audirvana Plus for Windows 10 and Audirvana Plus 3 for Mac. https://audirvana.com/

[left channel]

I believe the official launch has begun!  I've been on the beta for three weeks, but just received another "Welcome" message inviting me to sign up with 1 month free.

This message does not mention the beta and bug reporting, but the rest of the content is the same, including the warning that the catalog is not yet complete. It adds that many customers have requested a Family Plan, and they hope to develop one soon.

Good luck Qobuz!

[left channel]

1 hour ago, rando said:

Nope, still diverts to this page.

 

 

19 minutes ago, mav52 said:

Got the same letter.   "" Once you’ve created your account, you will choose a streaming plan. If you are a Hi-Res music user, make sure you select the Studio plan to access unlimited 24-bit streaming. ""

 

Odd like you said QoBUZ never mentioned me being a Beta customer, or do they even really know.  And I thought we already signed up, had to pick a plan and had to provide a credit card number to be a Beta user.  .  Why would we do it again and get possibly double billed.

 

 

Looks like someone pulled the trigger a day early, and included the existing beta participants by mistake. Oops.
 

[left channel]

8 minutes ago, rando said:

 

Entirely possible.  Perfectly happy waiting until tomorrow as someone who didn't request access.  By happy I mean it bought me a few more hours to crash learn the art of being humbled by Android and iOS devices.  

 

To get the most out of Qobuz on Android, use UAPP. 

[left channel]

4 minutes ago, bobbmd said:

@left channel thanks for answering for me to @mav52

I got same email also- I thought I already had an account according to Qobuz USA support Eric Benoit when he set up my BETA account with the STUDIO HiRes and closed my French account some weeks ago

Do you think people with  a BETA account have to resign up? Supposedly the BETA account just folds into a regular one. And I never got asked for any errors or 'bug' reporting either- and I still get no music but it is playing the album/song on ROON and I get an occasional 'device not recognized' on ROON/Qobuz interface for my ME E2 DAC-I am sure it will all get worked out

 

I think that email was just a mistake, though a sign of things to come tomorrow. You don't need to sign up again.

 

My beta welcome email included a paragraph about bug reporting, but that was not a requirement. 

 

You seem to be experiencing difficulties only when playing Qobuz thru Roon, yes? Have you seen similar reports in the Room forum?

[left channel]

1 hour ago, rando said:

 

To get the most out of Qobuz on Android using UAPP one must get it to recognize and agree to send music to a USB DAC.  This is not a problem related to the topic in here. 

 

If your phone is able to play Hi-Res music itself, UAPP will get you around the problem of the Android OS resampling to 48 kHz. As with USB, the official apps from Qobuz and others cannot do that yet (with the possible exception of MQA, which is definitely not a topic here).

[left channel]

3 minutes ago, rando said:

@David Craff @dmackta The only issue I have is not enough people thanking you for your hard work getting the NA site up and running for us (US) customers who truly enjoy the entertainment enough to show up while the curtains are still airing.  I expect the catalog will shortly grow into something better than our Continental friend's given enough of us choose to view this aspect so brightly.  

 

+1!

[left channel]

10 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Qobuz claims to have access to 170,000 hi-res audio tracks. The fact that they're aren't even 2000 albums that have been produced at real hi-res doesn't seem to matter.

 

http://secure.campaigner.com/csb/Public/show/566i-y4gg0--jilj9-5q8j86o9

 

Interesting article. 

 

The author provides no source for or proof of that statement about 2,000 albums. In fact, any album that was recorded in analog can be digitized at Hi-Res. Perhaps he read somewhere about albums produced specifically as Hi-Res digital releases, but that is not the whole story. The sad part is that for a while some concerts and other albums were recorded only at 16/44.1, but anything done before or after that period can be produced in Hi-Res.

Regarding his statement on whether the audible difference between CD-quality and Hi-Res can be described mathematically, a recent study found that not everyone can hear the difference even between 320 kpbs MP3 and CD-quality, but of those who can hear the difference between CD-quality and Hi-Res, some can only describe it in emotional rather than objective terms:

SOUND QUALITY ENHANCES THE MUSIC LISTENING EXPERIENCE
Victoria J. Williamson, Michael South, and Daniel Müllensiefen
University of Sheffield (UK) Goldsmiths, University of London (UK)
http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas03dm/papers/SoundQuality_WilliamsonSouthMullensiefen_ICMPC2014.pdf

[left channel]

17 minutes ago, Paul R said:

I guess I just do not see the point to this argument, unless there is some hidden commercial reason.

 

The point of this argument is that the person who started this conversation likes to start arguments. Why don't we just drop it? This is OT anyway.

[left channel]

Just now, Paul R said:

 

Waldrep?  He usually has some point in there somewhere, and it usually is worth thinking about. But in this case... 

 

-Paul 

 

 

No not Waldrep. And that's all I'm saying. Let's get back on topic.

[left channel]

Hi-Res Audio is an industry standard marketing term for anything over 16/44.1. The industry definition of anything produced at Hi-Res from the beginning is a separate topic. In fact this whole discussion is a separate topic.

There is also another thread here titled What Can't You Find on Qobuz USA Yet That You'd Like to See?

[left channel]

3 minutes ago, Polyglot said:

For those with European accounts, have you been able to create a U.S. one with the same email address and credit card?

 

To do that, you'll have to ask Qobuz Support to move your account. They'll probably advise you to first copy your playlists and favorites with the Soundiiz service.

[left channel]

 

@Mark Dirac the behavior you describe could have more than one cause, but the Windows app is very resource-intensive. @David Craff has acknowledged that issue right here in this thread, and said the next major update may fix it.

 

@bobbmd the Mac app is a completely different animal, and I have not seen similar issues reported. But Macs have their own problems, caused by Apple not Qobuz. You use third-party apps to get around those, and to me that's not a great recommendation to switch to macOS. I could use those apps on Windows if I wanted them.

[left channel]

25 minutes ago, euphonite said:

Are the track listings for Qobuz USA fully populated yet?

 

Probably not. One of the Qobuz people mentioned about a month ago that it would take at least two months to get there. We're discussing what we'd like to see in this thread:

 

[left channel]

 

I'm experiencing dropouts, clicks, static, and stuttering while trying to play this album from Qobuz app to an MQA DAC, with both ASIO and WASAPI Exclusive. I can play it OK with a non-MQA DAC, but with an MQA-capable DAC I can find no way around the problem. It works better playing through the Qobuz plugin for LMS.

 

The Tidal app plays same album fine, with my DAC displaying 192k and a blue dot. The Qobuz app gives me 176k and a green dot, plus constant glitches. The Qobuz plugin for LMS played through Squeezelite-X gives me 176k and a green dot, but no dropouts or other glitches. My Pro-Ject S2D is perhaps more sensitive than most DACs to imperfections in an MQA stream, but Qobuz should not be hosting MQA albums if they're not going to play, as MQA-capable DACs will try to decode these every time. Tidal offers an optimized bit-perfect pass through option, but I have no idea why LMS is working.

 

This is not a complaint about whether or not MQA albums should on Qobuz, nor about the upsampling of that particular album which was originally recorded at 16/50.35. There is another thread here for that [link]. But if it's done, it should be done right.

[left channel]

15 minutes ago, mansr said:

Can you capture a minute or so of that track? Then we can check it for MQA errors.

 

What should I use to capture it? Not sure it's worth the trouble though, as there clearly are errors and they're worse in the official Qobuz app. I've edited my previous post to note that the Qobuz plugin for LMS also gives me 176k and a green dot, but no dropouts or other glitches. Interesting.

[left channel]

35 minutes ago, mav52 said:

Any particular track, I've played this selection from front tot back on my Lumin and no drop outs, clicks or stuttering

 

Thanks for the report. I would hope most people will be able to play it. But is it unfolding to 192 kHz? If not, I suspect it still isn't unfolding correctly.

As I mentioned above, my DAC — which was advertised prominently right next to the Qobuz banner on this site for weeks — is quite sensitive to imperfections in MQA signals, which is what we have here. But even people without dropouts are reporting that it unfolds to the equivalent of green dot 176 kHz or worse, while on Tidal it unfolds to blue dot 192 kHz and to me sounds better there. Does your Lumin display sample rate and authentication information?

[left channel]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

Tidal probably has the MQA-48/24 version while Qobuz has been given MQA-44/16.

 

That would be interesting. I think the bigger problem for my DAC is that the MQA signal is not bit-perfect pass-through (or software decoded, which would work too). 

For whatever reason, it may be un-listenable for a significant portion of Qobuz subscribers, and I think Qobuz management should be informed.

[left channel]

4 hours ago, mansr said:

Tidal probably has the MQA-48/24 version while Qobuz has been given MQA-44/16.

 

1 hour ago, mav52 said:

 

On Tidal for me, with my Lumin its MQA Studio 24/192

 

Looking into this further I've found the Tidal plugin for LMS, which is not MQA-enabled in any way, gives me 176k and a green dot. Normally MQA albums play at 44.1 via that plug-in. This one is an odd duck. Also providing 176k and a green dot are the Qobuz plugin for LMS, and the Qobuz app for Windows (with glitches on my S2D DAC).

 

On my desktop only the Tidal App for Windows gives me 192k and a blue dot, as will apparently any MQA-licensed application. On my Android phone, UAPP which is MQA-licensed correctly detects the Tidal version as 192k but (since I don't have the MQA add-on) it plays at 44.1. The Tidal app itself decodes this as MQA. Yet UAPP sees and plays the Qobuz version only as 44.1, as does the official Qobuz app for Android (and with no glitches).

It's not at all clear to me that Tidal and Qobuz have different versions of the album, just different delivery methods. And for Qobuz, the Windows and Android apps are also different.