Official Qobuz Issues Thread

[jacobacci]

Hi all,

I have been doing some testing with dCS Rossini and various DLNA control points using Qobuz and NAS/Minimserver as music sources. I have attached an excel with the summary results.

 

Qobuz Windows Desktop App DLNA

The Beta DLNA implementation of the Windows Qobuz app does not work well with Rossini at all. Only basic playback seems to work. When one track ends and the next one starts the app usually switched from DLNA to WASAPI and playback via Ethernet stops. This is a no go and it looks like quite some work will be needed to get to a smooth cooperation.

Gapless playback does not work. There is around 1 sec of silence between tracks.

I have informed both dCS and Qobuz of the issues and I am awaiting their feedback.

Qobuz Desktop App via USB/WASAPI works well (as it should via USB), but alas the sound quality is mediocre.

 

mConnect 

mConnect functions better, but still some serious shortcomings. It does not display the currently played title on the Rossini display and it has (like all the others) the gapless issue. There is always that 1 second gap of silence between tracks.

 

BubbleUPnP

I liked BubbleUPnP best. It displays the currently played title on the Rossini and the Rossini’s volume control works both from within the app and via the hardware buttons on my Samsung tablet. It does not play gapless though, neither from NAS / MinimServer, nor from Qobuz.

 

Raspberry Pi / PiCorePlayer

Using a Raspberry Pi with PiCorePlayer as the renderer (plugged into SPDIF1) solves the gapless issue for Qobuz and NAS source, but sound quality is mediocre.

 

I really hope these issues get sorted out. The most annoying one for me is the lack of gapless playback - a total no go in the context of live albums or opera, where there are no breaks between tracks. DLNA does have a way to manage gapless (SetNextAVTransport function) as outlined in the attached PDF. So in principle the problem should be easy to fix.

 

DLNA Control Point Compatibility.xlsx

UPnP-av-AVTransport-v1-Service.pdf

[jacobacci]

Hi Cebolla

You obviously know much more about streaming than me and I am truly grateful for your clarifications. I am aware that the DLNA server per se has nothing to do with gapless. So I agree that some of my tests were a double dip.

Thanks also for your clarification re. PiCorePlayer. I tested that one with SqueezeCtrl so I stayed within the Squeezebox Ecosystem.

I also have Odroid C2 / Volumio on my Excel. Volumio controlled by Bubble does gapless really well. Would you classify Volumio as a DLNA renderer?

I tested mConnect on Android and iOS, as shown in the excel.

The four problem areas I identified are:

1. Gapless playback not working (with all control points)
2. Metadata not displayed (Qobuz Desktop DLNA, mConnect). This works with BubbleUPnP
3. Seek and skip commands do not work (Qobuz Desktop DLNA)
4. Hardware volume control (on Samsung tablet) does not work (Qobuz Desktop DLNA)

Issue 1 seems to be a dCS Rossini issue.

Issue 2 may be a Qobuz Desktop and mConnect issue

Issue 3 and 4 seem to be Qobuz Desktop issues

 

I have been trying to get dCS to look into the gapless issue, but I have not had much success so far. Probably I have not been precise enough in my inputs.

In order to get dCS to do something about the gapless issue, do you have a specific suggestion what they would need to test for. I assume it has to do with the way the Rossini handles the SetNextAVTransportUri action (or rather does not).

 

 

[jacobacci]

@Cebolla@AMP Thanks a lot for your clarifications and suggestions. As AMP said, this is getting WAAAY off the Qobuz topic. I appreciate the background info a lot, though.

 

[jacobacci]

17 hours ago, left channel said:

I am getting excellent sound quality from Qobuz via the Squeezbox ecosystem, with best results out of an ultraRendu connected to a DAC via USB. I suspect a hardware upgrade may help, and am wondering if you've tried adding an Allo DigiOne S/PDIF board to your RasPi or swapping in other endpoints. An Allo Usbridge for example.

I am using a Hifiberry Digi+ Pro on my Raspberry Pi 3, so the hardware should be ok. I have generally noticed that sound quality from the Rossini is best (by a margin) using the Ethernet input vs. SPDIF or USB. "mediocre" is probably not quite objective, as the Rossini is excellent through SPDIF or USB, but stellar through Ethernet. 

[jacobacci]

I was using my Chromecast Audio to stream some audio files using the Android Qobuz app as control point. Playback had around 0.5 second gaps between tracks (Ravel Daphnis et Chloe which has continuous music spanning tracks). I know this issue has been there forever, but is anyone aware whether Qobuz are doing anything to fix this? Roon is able to stream to Chromecast Audio absolutely gaplessly, so it seems to be doable.

[jacobacci]

Thanks David

[jacobacci]

Just now, Cebolla said:

Given that supplying its built-in player's audio output (as opposed to the actual individual audio file tracks themselves) for network streaming is already the Roon Core Server's modus operandi, it's easy to see why it can get Chromecast devices to 'play' gaplessly.

 

Thanks, Cebolla, I am aware of that. It looks like Qobuz will simply have to do something similar as Roon (obviously at their server end, not in the Android app). Should not be rocket science.

[jacobacci]

Just now, Cebolla said:

The Chromecast devices do not support gapless playback

Chromecast and gapless seems to be a huge mess. 

https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/36190694

 

[jacobacci]

On ‎27‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 6:09 PM, David.. Qobuz, Hi-Res Music Evangelist said:

But we are working on it and hopefully will be complete by launch.

 

 

Just got the update to 5.0.0 b002 on my Windows laptop

Supposedly some Google Chromecast issues were fixed. However Google Chromecast Audio still does not play gapless. By when will this be fixed?

Roon has been doing gapless to Chromecast for a long time by streaming a contiguous stream from Roon Server. Why can Qobuz not do the same thing from their server when the stream is output? Qobuz addresses itself explicitly to serious classical listeners. Many classical works have music that spans several tracks without interruption.

Sorry, but this is getting a bit long in the tooth.

[jacobacci]

Thanks David

[jacobacci]

I have recently upgraded my (France) sublime subscription to sublime +. Not quite out of free will, but because Qobuz is cancelling the sublime product and will only have Studio and sublime+ going forward, both of which are more expensive than sublime was. So I now have the pleasure of paying 50% more for my subscription. In return I can now stream hires albums in hires, without purchasing them first. So far so good.

 

Until I tried to stream 24/96 through my Google Chromecast Audio. Looking through this thread, the Chromecast issues at 96kHz seem to be a widely known issue. Gapless playback using Chromecast is also not possible (I know there are technical hurdles. They have been described in Qobuz' answers to customers' questions).

 

DLNA in the Qobuz app has been declared Beta. Ok.

Google Chromecast Audio has NOT. Customers expect Chromecast to work without issues.

 

It does seem strange to me that:

- Roon manages to stream to Google Chromecast Audio at 96kHz without issues and to stream gapless. Whatever Roon do in RoonCore to enable this, Qobuz would be able to do in the server that originates the Qobuz stream.

- Qobuz does neither, yet treats Chromecast like a fully supported endpoint. No indication on the website that there are issues. 

 

This really makes me feel like an RGU (revenue generating unit), not a customer. But I guess that is what we are increasingly becoming.

 

Can someone enlighten me, if there is a target date, by when the Google Chromecast Audio issues will be fixed? I cannot imagine this to be rocket science. After all, Roon can do it.

 

The issue would go away, if the integration of Qobuz into Roon would finally become a reality. Instead the integration has become a constantly moving phantom.

 

Pity.

 

 

[jacobacci]

8 hours ago, thyname said:

Chromecast Audio. You get what you pay for. ‘Nuf said

 

While I agree with you that Chromecast Audio is anything but high end, unfortunately Qobuz has made it the official (and only) way of streaming from a tablet or phone (DLNA has been relegated to Beta because of its major issues). 

So the average Joe is pretty much stuck with it.

My question is not so much to Google, but to Qobuz.

I'd be more than happy if Qobuz had another way to stream from their app to a device not connected directly. Fixing DLNA would be one (easy) way to resolve this (Bubbleguuum can do gapless DLNA, why not Qobuz).

 

[jacobacci]

1 hour ago, Cebolla said:

Ironically, @bubbleguuum's Chromecast supporting apps don't get them to play gaplessly like the Qobuz app

Thanks, @Cebolla

Is streaming from the Qobuz (Android) app to Chromecast Audio really gapless?

That would be a great progress.

I am using

• Cast FW 1.36.141215
• Qobuz App for Android 5.1.3

No luck with gapless playing Charles Dutoit's Daphnis and Chloe (continuous music across tracks). There is a silent gap of around half a second between tracks.

Hires tracks play with quite severe interruptions. 44.1kHz plays fine.

 

Windows:

• JS Version 5.0.1-b006
• Desktop Version 5.0.1-b002

Same behavior as with Android app.

Ok, Chromecast Audio has its own set of challenges.

 

So next I tried DLNA, hoping some progress had been made in that area:

No DLNA functionality found in Android app.

DLNA activated in Windows app. Streaming to Volumio client not possible. When trying to play back to Volumio, the choice of renderer falls back to laptop speakers.

Next I tried BubbleUPnP with the Volumio client. Perfect playback, gapless, the lot.

What is it about DLNA that makes it so difficult for Qobuz to solve? AFAIK, Volumio is a fairly well behaved and standard client.

 

[jacobacci]

5 minutes ago, David Craff said:

Only solution is to save the audio file on our application, transform the application into DLNA Server, and push the new url to DLNA device. It sounds simple like that but it doesn't have it.  Of course that's what others like Roon, Audirvana, Bubble UPnP do, but that's not how Qobuz works. We need to improve our applications to achieve this.

David, thanks for acknowledging that this is a priority for Qobuz. I am hoping that it will resolved soon. DLNA is extremely important from a customer perspective, as it is the gateway to a large number of devices.

 

Google seems to have blessed me with a newer FW than the one you have. Possibly things are broken again with this one.

 

One more reason to get DLNA working. It is definitely not a good thing to have a shaky platform like Google Chromecast Audio as your primary delivery mechanism for tablet users.

 

I would appreciate it, if you could emphasize the importance of this stuff to product management. Qobuz is great from a music choice and hires quality perspective. But the technical site definitely is its achilles' heel.

 

 

[jacobacci]

51 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

My main intention was to highlight Bubbleguuum's comments on the matter, particularly that the current only viable fix, the so called "continuous stream" solution to get the Chromecast devices to play gaplessly, isn't as straight forward as you might expect.

 

@Cebolla With David's clarification below, I now understand your comment

 

41 minutes ago, David Craff said:

I did not say it's a  priority for Qobuz. For me is  very important, I know that we must do that, but we have to secure the audio stream too and this one can be a big problem for DLNA.

 

[jacobacci]

41 minutes ago, David Craff said:

This issue in on the road soon.

 

Thanks @David Craff

That is good news and will go a long way to improve the situation.

[jacobacci]

22 hours ago, shadowlight said:

I am in the same boat with DLNA but I have been using alternative solutions with BubbleUPnP, mConnect and Audirvana until official support is added in Qobuz.

 

I am also using other solutions for some of my playback devices. The most reliable being myVolumio with its native Qobuz plugin. BubbleUPnP controlling a standard DLNA endpoint also works well incl. gapless.

But for some devices I am using Chromecast audio.

Qobuz seem to be doing some profound changes. The current Windows desktop app (on three different computers) seems to be having issues with gapless. Sometimes playback stalls with a spinning circle where the playback arrow or the pause icon should be.

Hope stability soon returns.

 

[jacobacci]

17 hours ago, jacobacci said:

the current Windows desktop app (on three different computers) seems to be having issues with gapless

A clarification of how this manifests itself: The app only loads the next tracks after the previous track has finished playing back. I have a very fast internet connection, but still the buffering of the next track and the start of playback takes around half a second. 

If I recall correctly, the Windows desktop app used to download the whole playlist to local cache. Now it only seems to download the track that is being played.

On one of my PCs I got a message during playback that the cache was corrupted and playback stopped. Emptying the cache did not change this behavior.

[jacobacci]

18 hours ago, David Craff said:

After investigation: the latest version of the Google SDK for Google Cast is not yet gapless compatible.

Thanks for the heads up, David

I am not holding my breath for Google enabling gapless with their SDK. A continuous stream like Roon is using is probably the only way to go in the short term.

So far the (out of the box) most reliable Qobuz experience (incl. gapless) for me has been myVolumio. 

[jacobacci]

Google Chromecast Audio EOL

It seems Google is discontinuing Chromecast Audio. No official word from Google yet, but the guy is usually quite reliable.

Now it is clear why Chromecast Audio had little love from Google. No gapless all the way to the end.

For Qobuz this means that they will need a new default way to stream from portable devices to bricks and mortar hifi. Up to now (and currently still) that role was taken by Chromecast Audio.

I guess this would be the right time for Qobuz to get UPnP sorted out.

@David Craff any thoughts Qobuz might have on this?

 

[jacobacci]

9 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Google's already confirmed it to a few sites. 

Thanks for the update

 

[jacobacci]

On 4/2/2019 at 5:32 AM, dmackta said:

Qobuz Connect is not a protocol, right now it's an area of the app that houses Airplay, Chromecast etc. 

 

Aha, I was under the illusion that Qobuz connect was the protocol that Sonos had implemented to allow control of their devices from the Qobuz app.

I would think that equipment manufacturers would jump at the ability to make their devices "Qobuz Ready", if Qobuz were to put a protocol at their disposal. UPnP will be very difficult to get beyond "barely useable", because the standard is too loosely defined to allow for realiably smooth interworking.

Much like Roon have done with RAAT to make devices Roon Ready.

[jacobacci]

17 hours ago, PAR said:

If I understand your point correctly Qobuz do this by providing an api ( allocation programming interface) to various manufacturers so that Qobuz is accessible from their devices. Examples include Innuos,  dCS , Sonos NAD, Bluesound, Linn and many others. Very much an expanding roster currently.

 

However as far as I am aware the api does not allow access to some of the added value aspects of Qobuz such as much of the textual content, nor,  at least on the examples that I have seen, is there a "buy" button as there is in Qobuz' own applications.

 

Yes you have understood correctly.

I am looking for a way to use the qobuz app on android or iOS (not PC) to control a rendering device in order to have all the metadata at and functionality my disposal. There are several ways to do this. Unfortunately all of them have significant shortcomings:

• Chromecast is not gapless. Roon solves this issue by building a continuous gapless stream on the Roon Core Server. In theory Qobuz could do the same thing by streaming a continuous gapless stream from the Qobuz Servers. This would be a solution to the problem
• Airplay has limited quality
• UPnP is only available on the PC and Mac versions of the app. The android and iOS apps do not have UPnP (at least I have not found it). Qobuz UPnP works well with some devices and not so well on others. So if UPnP were available on tablets, device manufactureres could possbly adapt their UPnP renderer to cater for the peculiarities of the Qobuz UPnP implementation

I am wondering if Qoubuz would deem one of these two solutions doable?

 

The notion of the mythical Qobuz Connect protocol came up in the context of Sonos. Qobuz had mentioned them as being an example of Qobuz Connect implementation. Now that it is clear that "Qobuz Connect" is a generic name for third party protocols being used, it seems to me that in the Sonos case it may have been Sonos direct control being used.

[jacobacci]

@PAR everything you are saying is spot on. I have a dCS Rossini and from the Qobuz Windows Desktop App I can stream via UPnP. It works, but

• track metadata is not displayed on the Rossini
• playback stops one second before the end of the track
• if I press play at that point, playback is resumes laptop locally

So not exactly what I would call a seamless experience. On the Rossini I would never use Qobuz UPnP, but the Mosaic App which works flawlessly (without the nice Qobuz App fluff though).

For many other devices, I would like to use the Qobuz app however (e.g. Volumio)

 

So I'm afraid there is currently no good way to stream to an end device from the tablet Qobuz app. Tons of workarounds that each fall short in one way or another.

 

As you point out, there are many other tablet clients, which speak Qobuz and do stream to UPnP devices, but they again fall short in one aspect or another. Most of them i.e. only display 500 favorite albums. Most do not show the Qobuz track groupings for classical. All this can be fixed, but the app developers need to really look at the Qobuz API definitions.

For example see here

I have pointed out these issues to the respective developers as I find them, but nothing much has happened yet. Pity.

 

[jacobacci]

58 minutes ago, jvvita said:

The best workaround I know, in Android, is to use the “share” function. You use the Qobuz app to navigate. When you find the track/album you want, click on the three dots, instead of play. Select share, and it will send the stream to bubble upnp. Never tried with dcs Mosaic. With bubble, works flawlessly, including hapless.

 

Now that is a cool workaround. Just tried it, works like a breeze

THANK YOU

😁