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Chords New M -Scaler


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56 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Hopefully there will be some relevant posts once the Hugo M-Scalers begin shipping.  I will be buying one at some point.  

I think relevance is in the eye of the beholder. But I concur that at times, the posts have wandered further and further from Hugo M-Scaler. That said, Blu2 has been out for at least 15 months so a few people who own the product has commented on it in this thread. People with more software expertise have commented on the software vs hardware approaches to upsampling.

And then yes, there is some divergence as to whether 1 million tap 16fs WTA filter is the right approach since there are many ways to do upsampling/filtering that is computationally more optimal/less intensive. There is also a question of whether we shouldn't just go straight from 1fs to DSD512 and that's when things started getting a little more tangential?

mansr is kind of enough to provide some samples of software upsampling so that people who own Chord & non-Chord DACs can compare the sound of various filters. I think there'll be a few interesting posts there shortly. While doing that, I went back and looked at whatever technical specs I can gather about Blu2 (so Hugo M-Scaler too) based on what Rob Watts has posted in Head-Fi. Of course, whether you think these numbers mean something or are totally meaningless is in the eye of the beholder...

M-Scaler Specs/Design: 1,015,808 taps 16fs WTA filter, video mode is a 2/3 million tap asymmetric min phase WTA filter

WTA filter output is 56 bits

The output is noise-shaped with "advanced" 11th order noise shaper to 24-bit (whatever advanced means)

Xilinx XC7A200T FPGA is used. It has 740 DSP core

Rob Watts uses 528 cores running at 4096fs (180.6MHz for 44.1kHz and 196.6MHz for 48kHz)

Rob Watts claims that he can resolve a -301dB signal with a better than -350dB noise floor digitally

M-Scaler decimates DSD to 705.4kHz and uses a stop band attenuation of 220dB

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For all my fiddling with software filters in both A+ and HQP, I never heard anything close to the step change I heard from Blu2/M-Scaler in front of DAVE.  I think we’re comparing apples to oranges as Rob has designed his DACs such that M-Scaler can improve upon all the existing strengths of his DACs.  I know there are DACs that responsd really well to HQP but I’ve not heard one myself.

 

I love what I’ve heard from the DAVE.  I’m fully on board with where Rob Watts is going because to my ears he’s doing something very special.  I know that many feel the same about what HQP brings to the game.  It’s great that we have choices!

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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3 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

For all my fiddling with software filters in both A+ and HQP, I never heard anything close to the step change I heard from Blu2/M-Scaler in front of DAVE.  I think we’re comparing apples to oranges as Rob has designed his DACs such that M-Scaler can improve upon all the existing strengths of his DACs.  I know there are DACs that responsd really well to HQP but I’ve not heard one myself.

 

I love what I’ve heard from the DAVE.  I’m fully on board with where Rob Watts is going because to my ears he’s doing something very special.  I know that many feel the same about what HQP brings to the game.  It’s great that we have choices!

Have you tried the test files I made using various different filters?

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Just now, mansr said:

Have you tried the test files I made using various different filters?

 

I did not as I assumed these were upsampled beyond the max sample rate of my Hugo TT, which is like 384 kHz.  If that’s not the case, I will try them.

 

(and yes, I will have to first upgrade my DAC before getting an M-Scaler)

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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5 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I did not as I assumed these were upsampled beyond the max sample rate of my Hugo TT, which is like 384 kHz.  If that’s not the case, I will try them.

They are 705.6 kHz. You mentioned the DAVE, so I thought maybe you had one.

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17 minutes ago, mansr said:

They are 705.6 kHz. You mentioned the DAVE, so I thought maybe you had one.

 

I wish.  A good friend has one.  He’s been a bad influence.  ?

 

I appreciate you making those files available.  I wish I could play them.

 

I’ve been toying with the idea of getting a Mojo for portable use.  Maybe I should use this as a justification.  ? 

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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On 7/25/2018 at 1:48 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

All information is welcomed.

 

Since there's no free lunch, I'd love to know about the Pros and Cons to the Chord approach. 

 

One of the major Pros should be transparency and that ultra low output impedance might be fairly difficult to find when we're looking at other brands. However, only those of us who are driving Omega / Voxativ etc. directly without an amp could actually understand what the deal is

 

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf#page=12

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-240#post-12717515

Quote

As you have a DAVE, just check the user's manual and you will see its listed output impedance of 0.0055 ohms. Now try and find any other commercially available source with an output impedance that low.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-118#post-13783010

Quote

Hugo2 directly driving my Voxativs results in better detail resolution, depth and transparency than my Martin Logan setup and by a significant margin. At this stage, my near field Voxativ setup is the much more satisfying setup. It could be that the Voxativs are more resolving than the Martin Logans but I'm more inclined to believe these Pass Labs monoblocks are the culprit.

 

Quote

I think the problem is with amplifiers (and preamplifiers) in general. They just get in the way and they significantly impact Blu2's performance. If ultimate fidelity to the original musical performance is the goal, I will go out on a limb and predict that Rob's digital amplifiers will have a larger impact on 2-channel speaker listening than Blu2. As good as Blu2 is, the negative impact of amplifiers and preamps is even greater.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-202#post-14115340

Quote

I gave up on preamps long ago believing that DAVE directly driving any amp sounds more transparent than any preamp ever could and my direct A/B against a variety of preamps including a $30k VAC seemed to prove this to me.

 

And then we've got great news for owners of Abyss AB-1266 as well as HiFiMAN HE6se / Susvara etc.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-44#post-14422626

Quote

The first DX amp will have HP outputs.

 

DX amp with Power Pulse Array should be a digital amp and therefore we might not even need to add any DACs between that and M Scaler.

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4 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

One of the major Pros should be transparency and that ultra low output impedance might be fairly difficult to find when we're looking at other brands. However, only those of us who are driving Omega / Voxativ etc. directly without an amp could actually understand what the deal is

 

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf#page=12

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-240#post-12717515

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-118#post-13783010

 

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-202#post-14115340

 

And then we've got great news for owners of Abyss AB-1266 as well as HiFiMAN HE6se / Susvara etc.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-44#post-14422626

 

DX amp with Power Pulse Array should be a digital amp and therefore we might not even need to add any DACs between that and M Scaler.

Adding to that the TT2 directly driving Martin Logans Speakers

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-266#post-14374000

Quote

I was more surprised by how well TT2 directly drove my giant pair of Martin Logans. While ultimately, my 700wpc (into 4 ohms) Pass Labs X350.8 played louder, TT2 directly driving my Renaissance sounded just as dynamic and much much more transparent. The increased speed, detail, and depth were incredible and for music playback, the TT2 by itself was capable of powering my Renaissance to satisfyingly loud levels, as loud as any of us cared to listen.

 

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13 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

As you have a DAVE, just check the user's manual and you will see its listed output impedance of 0.0055 ohms. Now try and find any other commercially available source with an output impedance that low.

Not quite an equivalent I know, but the latest Devialet Expert Pro range is quoted as having an output impedance of 0.001 ohms.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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1 hour ago, peterlim8 said:

Now we are going into which best driving a pair of speakers.

Yes, off topic, I would agree.

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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On 8/15/2018 at 9:40 AM, seeteeyou said:

 

One of the major Pros should be transparency and that ultra low output impedance might be fairly difficult to find when we're looking at other brands. However, only those of us who are driving Omega / Voxativ etc. directly without an amp could actually understand what the deal is

 

https://chordelectronics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Dave-User-Manual.pdf#page=12

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-240#post-12717515

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-118#post-13783010

 

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-202#post-14115340

 

And then we've got great news for owners of Abyss AB-1266 as well as HiFiMAN HE6se / Susvara etc.

 

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/page-44#post-14422626

 

DX amp with Power Pulse Array should be a digital amp and therefore we might not even need to add any DACs between that and M Scaler.

 

yes, that's the selling point for me. Indeed, I'm thinking whether it would be a good idea to sell my integrated amps and buy the new Hugo TT2, which  generate 7.3 W @ 8 Ohms.  The issue with that is that I should replace my trusted Proac 1SC for some high sensibility monitors (> 90 Ohms ?), and that's not easy at all since the offer of this type of speakers is very reduced. 

 

 

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I guess some people don't appreciate irony.  The developer of HQ Player hijacked this M-Scaler thread to criticize the approach of Rob Watts and explain why HQ Player is better.  Among other things, he mentioned that the number of taps is a meaningless metric.  Nevertheless, he has released an update to HQ Player a mere 2 weeks later that includes a "mega" filter with 1 million taps for PCM and 16 million taps for SDM.

 

Go figure!

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I guess some people don't appreciate irony.  The developer of HQ Player hijacked this M-Scaler thread to criticize the approach of Rob Watts and explain why HQ Player is better.  Among other things, he mentioned that the number of taps is a meaningless metric.  Nevertheless, he has released an update to HQ Player a mere 2 weeks later that includes a "mega" filter with 1 million taps for PCM and 16 million taps for SDM.

 

Go figure!

I can't really blame him. In this business, you've got to roll with it to some extent, even when it doesn't make sense technically.

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9 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I guess some people don't appreciate irony.  The developer of HQ Player hijacked this M-Scaler thread to criticize the approach of Rob Watts and explain why HQ Player is better.  Among other things, he mentioned that the number of taps is a meaningless metric.  Nevertheless, he has released an update to HQ Player a mere 2 weeks later that includes a "mega" filter with 1 million taps for PCM and 16 million taps for SDM.

 

Go figure!

Hmm,  I find it quite interesting !

Like you say first claiming taps don't really matter and then adding not only 1M taps but 16M for DSD.

It would be very interesting to hear from Jussi why he updates his HQplayer with more taps if they don't matter???

Or do they suddenly matter?

And if so? How much ?And does his version seriously compare to Rob Watts's 1Mtap Mscaler or not?

And why did Mansr use only one instrument acoustic guitarr in his filter tests?

In my limited  experience and comparing against live acoustic music  you need very complex dynamically  with lots of instruments and even un-amplified voices to really hear much difference between good  DACs in general.

And from the limited exposure I have so far had to Rob Watts M-scaler via headphones only ,it has produced  the most realistic digital sound I have ever heard.

But it does so at a cost!

 

I would be very happy indeed if Jussi's latest  updated 1Mtaps version  HQplayer approaches or even  equals  an M-scaler.

That would be truly revolutionary!

 

And it would save me a lot of money!

 

 

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1 hour ago, chrille said:

It would be very interesting to hear from Jussi why he updates his HQplayer with more taps if they don't matter???

My guess is because it sells.

 

1 hour ago, chrille said:

And why did Mansr use only one instrument acoustic guitarr in his filter tests?

Because that's what ecwl requested. Send me a file of your choice, and I'll run it through those filters for you.

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15 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

I guess some people don't appreciate irony.  The developer of HQ Player hijacked this M-Scaler thread to criticize the approach of Rob Watts and explain why HQ Player is better.  Among other things, he mentioned that the number of taps is a meaningless metric.  Nevertheless, he has released an update to HQ Player a mere 2 weeks later that includes a "mega" filter with 1 million taps for PCM and 16 million taps for SDM.

 

Go figure!

He also added a closed form filter after the Yggy came out. Doesn't mean he thinks it is better or necessary. Means he knows customers are interested in what it sounds like, and he is letting them compare and decide for themselves if a type of filter matches the manufacturer's hype. I think it's a real service, compare the sound without adding a complete DAC. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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