Jeff Dorgay & TONEAudio Declare War on CA

[Jud]

1 minute ago, crenca said:

 

Is the Lavorgna scale linear or logarithmic?

 

 

Dyspeptic.

[semente]

On 7/16/2018 at 4:05 PM, Jud said:

 

Hi Beetle - so here's the critical thing you need to know to understand why what at first glance seems reasonable to you in fact isn't:

 

Tone Audio is delivering a free newspaper to a whole lot of people.  They want Chris to cut out the articles from each issue of the newspaper and just leave the headlines.  However, *with one mouse click*, they can deliver a newspaper to Chris with just the headlines.

 

This gets near to describing the different levels of effort necessary by Chris and anyone else to clean up this feed on the receiving end, versus Tone Audio making the entire problem go away with a click of the mouse.

 

Why does Chris need to wallpaper this guy's newspaper?

[tmtomh]

6 hours ago, phototristan said:

 

Point taken, although that comment is still quite a derogatory one versus one that seems to actually want to provide constructive criticism. 

 

I've consciously decided not to get into the running argument you've initiated in this thread, but since you've brought me in via the Guttenberg comment I made, I'll add a couple of comments about that:

 

First, in addition to saying I like him and I'm glad he's a presence in the audiophile world, I also noted very specifically what I appreciate about him and his approach:

 

On 7/15/2018 at 11:51 AM, tmtomh said:

Guttenberg seems like a really nice guy, and I really like his lack of snobbery, willingness to focus on inexpensive and high-end gear, and lack of extremism on analogue vs digital and other audiophile debates.

 

 

 

 

Second, my criticism of his content was similarly specific - I didn't say, "I don't like it and I think it sucks." Rather, I specifically noted that I'm chronically disappointed that his videos don't actually answer the questions or provide the insight that his video titles imply they will.

 

If someone thinks "nothing burger" is too derogatory or flip, I am happy to accept that criticism and wouldn't even necessarily argue with it. Different strokes and all.

 

But I would also insist that my "nothing burger" comment be taken in context: as the conclusion of a specific claim that Guttenberg's videos often don't deliver on their purported subject matter. So IMHO his content is less substantial and less useful than it promises to be, and than it could be - there's the constructive criticism. And that's what the expression "nothing burger" means: it's based precisely on a metaphor of something you think will satiate you but does not actually provide you with nourishment or satisfaction.

 

And finally, I ended my comment with, "What do others think?" - a strong indication that dialogue and other thoughts are requested. And that's exactly what followed in that thread: Someone else posted a perfectly reasonable, and balanced, and somewhat different point of view than mine, which I appreciated, and which also slightly softened my view of Guttenberg's videos.

 

So while you have every right to say what you want to say, I do wish you'd be a more careful reader of what others say before you attempt to use their comments as evidence.

[crenca]

19 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Why does Chris need to wallpaper this guy's newspaper?

 

He does not "need" to, but on several levels it is a good idea - a win/win not only to the publishers and their advertisers, but even to the consumer as well (at least on certain levels).  Even on the level "the industry" or "this hobby" or "Audiophiledom" it is if for no other reason that it is raw exposure.  All this is the reason RSS exists  - it is what it does.

 

All that said Audiophiledom is a very strange place where "win/win", expanding the market/hobby, and the like runs counter to basic cultural instincts.

 

In my business (yep I am actually working, or supposed to be, sitting in front of this computer all day ?) there are always a handful of doctors/practices that think like this.  They somehow convince themselves that they should get all the referrals for this or that from this or that doctor or institution.  They cause trouble for some - others like myself spend very little time/effort dealing with them and they soon learn not even to try.  Another example how "being nice" is not necessarily the best solution to every problem.

[Ralf11]

Guttenburg make me wish for "Sam Tellig" and I agree with tmtomh above

[phototristan]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

Guttenburg make me wish for "Sam Tellig" and I agree with tmtomh above

 

But he IS the audiophiliac. 

[tmtomh]

2 minutes ago, phototristan said:

 

But he IS the audiophiliac. 

 

That tagline annoys the crap out of me, but at the same time I have to admit that it makes me smile every time I see him say it in a video, because it seems like he himself is not entirely comfortable with having to say it every time. So I find that endearing, despite myself. ?

[Jud]

6 hours ago, tmtomh said:

So while you have every right say what you want to say, I do wish you'd be a more careful reader of what others say before you attempt to use their comments as evidence.

 

Heck, he tried to say a web page stating the "jury is still out" on whether republishing RSS feeds is infringement of copyright made it "clear" that it *was* copyright infringement.  So no, not a very careful reader at all.  And not terribly ethical about bending others' words to fit his arguments.

[phototristan]

6 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Heck, he tried to say a web page stating the "jury is still out" on whether republishing RSS feeds is infringement of copyright made it "clear" that it *was* copyright infringement.  So no, not a very careful reader at all.  And not terribly ethical about bending others' words to fit his arguments.

 

CA did end up removing the ToneAudio feeds so you know, there's that. 

[tmtomh]

5 minutes ago, phototristan said:

 

CA did end up removing the ToneAudio feeds so you know, there's that. 

 

Your response to @Jud strongly implies that you think CA's removal of Tone Audio's RSS feeds is evidence that your interpretation of the "jury is out" web article was correct. But it is not evidence of that.

[Jud]

Speaking of not terribly ethical, there is also praising oneself while masquerading under a pseudonym, and this:

 

"I have nothing better to do for the rest of the day than to write letters to all the advertisers listed on your site....

Have a nice day ASSHOLE."

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 minutes ago, phototristan said:

 

CA did end up removing the ToneAudio feeds so you know, there's that. 

 

Subsequent Remedial Measures is a concept that may baffle your mind.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, tmtomh said:

 

Your response to @Jud strongly implies that you think CA's removal of Tone Audio's RSS feeds is evidence that your interpretation of the "jury is out" web article was correct. But it is not evidence of that.

 

To paraphrase Chief Dan George from Little Big Man, "Some days the logic works, some days it doesn't."

[phosphorein]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

Speaking of not terribly ethical, there is also praising oneself while masquerading under a pseudonym, and this:

 

"I have nothing better to do for the rest of the day than to write letters to all the advertisers listed on your site....

Have a nice day ASSHOLE."

 

I do hope Chris banned him from further participation.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, phosphorein said:

 

I do hope Chris banned him from further participation.

 

Not able to see any evidence of that.  And really, at this point, why bother?  Giving him the opportunity to be read has let everyone get an idea of the person behind the words.

[phototristan]

If a content source wants to get their content off this site, but still wants to have their RSS as it is, is there a formal way to make that request? Perhaps publish that to avoid this issue with other content creators in the future. 

[kumakuma]

3 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Not able to see any evidence of that.  And really, at this point, why bother?  Giving him the opportunity to be read has let everyone get an idea of the person behind the words.

 

 

[mansr]

37 minutes ago, phototristan said:

But he IS the audiophiliac. 

That is a bit annoying.

[sandyk]

15 minutes ago, phototristan said:

If a content source wants to get their content off this site, but still wants to have their RSS as it is, is there a formal way to make that request? Perhaps publish that to avoid this issue with other content creators in the future. 

 

 I can understand that sometimes they may wish to stop ONLY  Forums etc. that they consider are hostile to their organisation.

 However, in this case I see no evidence of this from this forum before the blow up.

[Jud]

34 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 I can understand that sometimes they may wish to stop ONLY  Forums etc. that they consider are hostile to their organisation.

 However, in this case I see no evidence of this from this forum before the blow up.

 

It would also be quite stupid of a "hostile" forum to give you another outlet for every word you published through your RSS feed - indicating clearly this forum was not at all hostile.  What would have been hostile was precisely what was (with such hostility) demanded: Not publishing anything. 

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 I can understand that sometimes they may wish to stop ONLY  Forums etc. that they consider are hostile to their organisation.

 

 

Here's the thing: they can't.

 

RSS is essentially a "pre-Google" technology. It is a way for a site to self-describe what the content of the site is. Google indexes sites without needing RSS. Google news aggregates news sites without needing RSS.

 

There's nothing to prevent someone from scraping a site's homepage and presenting a list of articles. There's nothing to prevent members of CA from reviewing articles, commenting on them and discussing them.

 

If Chris wants CA to be an audio news aggregator, he can do this whether or not each site publishes RSS.

 

So again, yeah you can technically copyright an RSS feed, and then demand that Chris not use the feed, but that's pretty stupid. As @Jud quotes: "you become what you fear". (is that Buddha or Nietzsche?)

[MetalNuts]

I believe it is absolute non-sense.  If I were Chris, I would not drag on with this matter to allow CA to be a free advertising website for ToneAudio.  I am quite sure they want to keep private and unknown.  I have never heard of it until this thread.

 

Why bother to spend time reasoning with unreasonable people who want to be well known but at the same time do not want publicity.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

As @Jud quotes: "you become what you fear". (is that Buddha or Nietzsche?)

 

I said "You create what you fear," which AFAIK is original (though I don't rule out unconscious copying).  Let's attribute the other to a combination of Buddha and Nietzsche, Bietzsche (pronounced "Bitchy").

[arcman]

13 hours ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

For the health of the industry it is not a good idea to listen to Jeff.

 

Keep the picture of sheep.

LOL..I do not know Jeff. I am familiar with ToneAudio pdf magazine. I will search their reviews as part of my search for info when I am making a purchase.  Yes, Jeff handled the email IMO wrong. However, Chris showed the typical "safe space" mentality of the world we live in. I don't get what I want........I'll post the video, send me a mean email....I'll post it online. At the end of the day, Jeff won this round. Jeff won it hands down. I'm going to guess ToneAudio's readership is probably more analog audio lovers and more likely to look at Hoffman or Audiogon forums.  

 

It's funny, some of the responses on this thread deal with "Jeff's expensive cars, etc". Amazing how much envy brews hate. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - I’m going to close this thread. Everything has been said a few times over. 

 

This whole thing (what you see and more so what you don’t see) is really weighing on me. 

 

I’ll have more to say tomorrow.