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Blu-ray Audio - Curious


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Just wanted to ask if any of you have had any experiences - both good and bad - with Blu-ray Audio recordings? Now I'm not going to be going hog wild with BD-A, but I am thinking about (haven't decided yet) purchasing a total of 3 or 5 albums (at most) on BD-A, next be extracted (final product being a 2-channel stereo 24/96 LPCM file), and then incorporated into my music library.

 

I'm considering the following BD-A's:

Alan Parsons Project - Eye in the Sky

Alan Parsons Project - Tales of Mystery and Imagination: Edgar Allen Poe

Simple Minds - Once Upon a Time

 

Any thoughts, experiences, or comments about BD-A would be greatly appreciated

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PITA - that's what I think of it. I accidentally ordered a BD-A disk incidentally of another Alan Parsons album - A Valid Path. First of all my blue ray capable disc couldn't play it as I don't have an app that you have to pay for to play Blue-Ray Disks. Took me several hours of futzing around with various bits of software to extract the audio files and get them into a format I could play in JRiver. Then had to manually tag the files. Okay, so the audio quality is better than a CD but if it is well mastered music I honestly can't tell the difference. Would never intentionally order one of these discs again. I also played around with trying to get it to play through my home theatre system and after several attempts and way more work than it should be got it to work playing on a 5.1 system and that was pretty cool. The manufacturers and owners of Blue-Ray technology intentionally don't make it easy to play these without the requisite player and license fees being paid to them. So, it is intentionally a PITA to get the music off the disk without essentially feeling like a criminal to "pirate" your own music off the disk. Can be done but nowhere near as easy as ripping a CD. 

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I disagree.

I think it is definitely worth it.  I have a significant BDA library, 2 channel and 5.1 24/96.

Please reference the Bluray releases of Steven Wilson and you won't go back.

It takes a little extra effort, and some extra $ but it's worth it!

jjk

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On 7/15/2018 at 9:27 PM, jjkale said:

I disagree.

I think it is definitely worth it.  I have a significant BDA library, 2 channel and 5.1 24/96.

Please reference the Bluray releases of Steven Wilson and you won't go back.

It takes a little extra effort, and some extra $ but it's worth it!

 

I largely agree.  I'd add that it's well worth having the ability to rip Blu-rays if you purchase concert videos.  David Gilmour's  "Live at Pompeii" is an awesome concert video.  As a bonus I also have a 2-channel 24/96 rip.  Outstanding version of "Comfortably Numb".

 

(Why I don't fully agree with the above is because I've soured on the SW rips.  I have all the Yes remixes and was initially impressed with them.  But as my system improved, it became evident that his recording chain strips some naturalness out of the music.  Even so, I'm happy to have these rips as they do offer additional insight into the performances.)

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Good job.

I wasn't so much talking about the SW remixes as I was the actual SW releases. 

I do think Aqualung is massively improved.

The actual SW music is pristine.  Modern master of MCH HiRes.

Congrats Eagle fan but go Penguins Steelers Buccos.

jjk

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blu-ray is a bit of a pain to get going, but once you have the pieces, it goes something like this (note - I use these steps to extract audio from blu-ray videos - I would think a blu-ray audio disk would be similar):

  1. use MakeMKV (currently 1.12.2 "beta") to extract the blu-ray to your hardrive (and strip any protection) (I do a flat out extract - but you could use this to make an MKV file with the same audio).  This is freeware, you can buy it or keep downloading the latest license
  2. use AudioMuxer (0.9.6.4) to extract the audio (split in chapters) to flac.  It does allow you to tag, but it is not automated so I skip and use a different program.  If there are multiple audio tracks (e.g. Stereo LPCM, 5.1 LPCM, Stereo DTS, etc.), you can only extract one at a time.  One other thing, you may need a program like VLC to figure out which blu-ray playlist to pick if there are multiple versions titles / versions.
  3. use foobar (or your tagging program of choice) to search for the album, tag and rename/organize the files.  Most of mine have been digital rips of known albums - so I am able to auto tag - ymmv.

 

Since it's 3+ steps instead of 1 when you rip a CD, it does take a little more effort and more time, but not that big of a deal

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17 minutes ago, n2it said:

 

  1. use MakeMKV (currently 1.12.2 "beta") to extract the blu-ray to your hardrive (and strip any protection) (I do a flat out extract - but you could use this to make an MKV file with the same audio).  This is freeware, you can buy it or keep downloading the latest license
  2. use AudioMuxer (0.9.6.4) to extract the audio (split in chapters) to flac.  It does allow you to tag, but it is not automated so I skip and use a different program.  If there are multiple audio tracks (e.g. Stereo LPCM, 5.1 LPCM, Stereo DTS, etc.), you can only extract one at a time.  One other thing, you may need a program like VLC to figure out which blu-ray playlist to pick if there are multiple versions titles / versions.

 

I use DVD Audio Extractor for step 2. I already had this licensed so that I could rip audio from DVD-Video and DVD-Audio disc.  

 

Your VLC recommendation is a good one.  It can be a challenge to figure out which chapter to select.

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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2 hours ago, n2it said:

blu-ray is a bit of a pain to get going, but once you have the pieces, it goes something like this (note - I use these steps to extract audio from blu-ray videos - I would think a blu-ray audio disk would be similar):

  1. use MakeMKV (currently 1.12.2 "beta") to extract the blu-ray to your hardrive (and strip any protection) (I do a flat out extract - but you could use this to make an MKV file with the same audio).  This is freeware, you can buy it or keep downloading the latest license
  2. use AudioMuxer (0.9.6.4) to extract the audio (split in chapters) to flac.  It does allow you to tag, but it is not automated so I skip and use a different program.  If there are multiple audio tracks (e.g. Stereo LPCM, 5.1 LPCM, Stereo DTS, etc.), you can only extract one at a time.  One other thing, you may need a program like VLC to figure out which blu-ray playlist to pick if there are multiple versions titles / versions.
  3. use foobar (or your tagging program of choice) to search for the album, tag and rename/organize the files.  Most of mine have been digital rips of known albums - so I am able to auto tag - ymmv.

 

Since it's 3+ steps instead of 1 when you rip a CD, it does take a little more effort and more time, but not that big of a deal

Yes, this is the process that I ended up with approximately when I did it. Took several hours to figure this all out. Couple comments to add...

  • Step 1 - MakeMKV does not strip copy protection from all discs. It is a bit of a technology race between companies with copy protection and removing it. This is from experience with trying to play and rip Bluray movies I own. Reminds me of the old days with floppy disks and copy protection. Technically, it is illegal in the US to circumvent copy protection. 
  • Step 2 - finding the audio tracks is not easy to do. Your idea of using VLC is a good one and I would suggest probably required as the audio tracks and buried and not nicely laid out. As you mention as well you have to do them one at a time so this is a very manual process. 
  • Step 3 - Tagging is not as easy as it sounds here. The autotagger will likely not recognize the album until you have entered a lot of the metadata. You are likely going to have to enter a lot of the information yourself manually. 

Where ripping a CD is a one step easy and mostly fully automated process this is a 3+ step process that has a lot of frustrating pitfalls. Also, the frustrating feeling that you are somehow hacking a product you own just in order to use it. As I said in my original comment - not worth it and I feel that I wouldn't want to support this technology that is intentionally designed to make my enjoyment of it difficult. 

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1 hour ago, DaQi said:

Step 3 - Tagging is not as easy as it sounds here. The autotagger will likely not recognize the album until you have entered a lot of the metadata. You are likely going to have to enter a lot of the information yourself manually. 

My trick is to rip the equivalent CD release and copy/paste the metadata................if the track listings match as they often do.

Another option is to copy the track/data info from an Internet listing and use a program like MusiCHI Tagger to insert the ASCII metadata.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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The biggest Blu-Ray Audio negative for me is that my main audio system is an audio-only system, and I don't like to keep a monitor connected to my universal disc player. I've found that Blu-Ray Audio discs have relatively complex menus that, unlike some DVD-A discs, are impossible to navigate "blind." And of course SACDs have no video menus a tall and are super easy to navigate.

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3 hours ago, DaQi said:
  • Step 2 - finding the audio tracks is not easy to do. Your idea of using VLC is a good one and I would suggest probably required as the audio tracks and buried and not nicely laid out. As you mention as well you have to do them one at a time so this is a very manual process. 


This is no different if you had multiple CDs in a special box set - e.g one with an original mix, one with a remix or remaster. 

You'd have to rip each disc individually.  I look at that as a benefit to the blu-ray/DVD - it can have a lot more data on it.

 

4 hours ago, DaQi said:
  • Step 3 - Tagging is not as easy as it sounds here. The autotagger will likely not recognize the album until you have entered a lot of the metadata. You are likely going to have to enter a lot of the information yourself manually. 

 

It really was pretty easy.  All I did was name the file with artist and album title in step 2.  At the worst, I would only need to fill in one song with artist and album. Then in foobar, then I simply opened the tracks, (while they were all selected) right clicked, select Tagging, then get tags from freedb.  I also saved a move setting in foobar to auto rename and move the file to my library

 

4 hours ago, DaQi said:

Yes, this is the process that I ended up with approximately when I did it. Took several hours to figure this all out.

 

As I said in my original comment - not worth it and I feel that I wouldn't want to support this technology that is intentionally designed to make my enjoyment of it difficult. 

  

I get that - but I don't really control how things are published and if there is something that is put on a bonus blu-ray - and is no where else - then I want to make the best of it.  I also want to give others reading this a different perspective, i.e trying to share with other folks how to do it (saving them time and aggravation of figuring it out) and that from my perspective share that it is pretty manageable with the right tools

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19 hours ago, astrotoy said:

Interesting thread.  I was having lunch with several Decca (Universal) execs in London a few years ago (maybe 2015) after finishing my Decca book.  They asked me about releasing some of their classical recordings in bluray (those they had digitized from their analogue tapes.  What did I think of the idea (vs. SACD for hirez digital audio)?  I asked why, and they talked about the very large installed base of bluray players and mentioned the stronger copy protection than CD.  Winston Ma (who produced my book on his FIM label) had also done a few releases on bluray.  Some complexities they talked about included pricing, since bluray has a very large capacity and so entire operas and other multidisc albums can fit on a single bluray disc. So if you have a 2 disc album, do you charge twice as much for that bluray album than a bluray album that only contains that content of a single disc.  They thought that customers might be only willing to pay per disc, not for the length of the content. 

 

Decca (Universal) has gone onto issuing a fair number of both their classical and pop/rock albums in bluray audio. I looked at Amazon, and there appear to be some real bargains in hirez bluray audio - like the entire Solti and Karajan Ring cycles (now both Decca and DGG part of Universal) which came out originally in 19 records - I have both in vinyl - are both around $60 on one bluray disc. not clear from the description whether these are 48/24 or 96/24 resolution.

 

Larry

 

 

The Decca BD remaster of the Solti Ring is at 48k/24.  I do not know what other Decca or DG BD remasters used, but I suspect they are the same. It is the most common audio format on BD.

 

i have had the LPs since 1980, listened to many times, and I have the first of two CD remasters of the Solti Ring.  Believe me, it has never sounded better than the BD or its equivalent download at 48k/24.  Many find it to sound even better than the very pricey, limited release Esoteric SACD remaster.  And, the entire Decca Ring fits on one BD, but with the need for opera/chapter navigation via a monitor.  The download, of course, avoids that.

 

Likely, it is the remastering effort rather than the format that has improved the sound. There were numerous complaints about the sound quality of each of the two prior Decca remasters to CD.  My understanding is also that the original analog tapes were unusable, and that the BD remaster was made from the same digital transfers used for the two earlier CD remasters.  But, the results are outstanding.

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2 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

The Decca BD remaster of the Solti Ring is at 48k/24.  I do not know what other Decca or DG BD remasters used, but I suspect they are the same. It is the most common audio format on BD.

 

i have had the LPs since 1980, listened to many times, and I have the first of two CD remasters of the Solti Ring.  Believe me, it has never sounded better than the BD or its equivalent download at 48k/24.  Many find it to sound even better than the very pricey, limited release Esoteric SACD remaster.  And, the entire Decca Ring fits on one BD, but with the need for opera/chapter navigation via a monitor.  The download, of course, avoids that.

 

Likely, it is the remastering effort rather than the format that has improved the sound. There were numerous complaints about the sound quality of each of the two prior Decca remasters to CD.  My understanding is also that the original analog tapes were unusable, and that the BD remaster was made from the same digital transfers used for the two earlier CD remasters.  But, the results are outstanding.

Great to know.  For $60 for the entire Solti Ring is amazing.  I had heard about the problems with the master tapes, which I understand were worn out with use.  Back in the late '70's Decca developed their own digital recording system, (I interviewed Tony Griffiths who invented the Decca digital recording system, adapting it from a video recorder). It was 48K rather than the Sony 44K, though 16bits and not 24.  Tony told me they had a big fight with Sony and Philips (Philips/Polygram bought Decca in 1980) to keep the 16 bits, while Sony and Philips thought 14 bits was enough.  After the merger, Decca provided Philips with copies of the Decca machines so they could make the masters of the Decca digital files and press the vinyl in Baarn, Holland after Polygram closed the big UK Decca pressing plant.

 

Larry

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3 hours ago, astrotoy said:

Great to know.  For $60 for the entire Solti Ring is amazing.  I had heard about the problems with the master tapes, which I understand were worn out with use.  Back in the late '70's Decca developed their own digital recording system, (I interviewed Tony Griffiths who invented the Decca digital recording system, adapting it from a video recorder). It was 48K rather than the Sony 44K, though 16bits and not 24.  Tony told me they had a big fight with Sony and Philips (Philips/Polygram bought Decca in 1980) to keep the 16 bits, while Sony and Philips thought 14 bits was enough.  After the merger, Decca provided Philips with copies of the Decca machines so they could make the masters of the Decca digital files and press the vinyl in Baarn, Holland after Polygram closed the big UK Decca pressing plant.

 

Larry

Thanks, Larry.

 

Yes, the Solti Ring is often rightly considered the "Greatest Recording of All Time", but the sonics are, of course, dated and easily superceded by more modern recordings. Although, the sound was truly excellent for its time.  

 

But, it was the sheer audaciousness of recording a complete, huge Wagner Ring over many years with absolutely the best then avalable cast, kept largely together though the 7-8 years necessary.   It was an accomplishment at the time almost like conquering Everest.   That plus the amazingly energetic Solti, the Vienna Philharmonic, and the genius behind it all, John Culshaw.  Largely because of this recording, Solti and Culshaw later received Knighthoods, to which I say, well deserved.

 

But, it is priceless on the BD.  And, there is still that marvellous BBC DVD video, The Golden Ring, about the recording production in 1985 for Gotterdaemmerung.  I watch it every year or so in total awe and admiration.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Why?

 

Just personal preference - I have a small listening room. my TV setup is elsewhere, and I prefer not to have the extra expense, AC adapter, electrical noise, and so on of a TV just for viewing high-res audio disc menus.

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Thx - wondering if it was a perceived SQ issue.  I have a wall mounted TV in between my Maggies - could put a blanket over it to prevent reflections, tho I don't think they should be too bad, based on ray tracing.  It would also cut into the overall esthetics of watching photos while listening.

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Thx - wondering if it was a perceived SQ issue.  I have a wall mounted TV in between my Maggies - could put a blanket over it to prevent reflections, tho I don't think they should be too bad, based on ray tracing.  It would also cut into the overall esthetics of watching photos while listening.

 

I have a very small 7" HDMI monitor that I connect when necessary - but I have so few Blu-Ray audio discs that i don't need to keep the monitor connected. I keep it in a nearby closet.

 

So it's really just an aesthetic and simplicity preference. However, in my TV setup I do notice that my TV generates a fair amount of heat and, while certainly silent from a distance, is not entirely silent close-up. So I do have some possible sound quality/electrical noise hesitation about having a big TV on top of my stereo and in between my speakers - but the emphasis there is on "possible" - I have no idea if it would actually make any difference in the sonics, and if I had to wager I'd say it wouldn't make any audible difference.

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I too use MakeMKV, then DVD Extractor. It is a multi step process, but easy enough.

 

It’s been a while, but I seem to remember that occasionally a disc comes along with many sections - the recent Steve Wilson Yes remasters come to mind. Then, identifying these for tagging purposes can be a challenge.

 

Finally, I love the Solti/Chicago Mahler 8 reissue on BD. My favorite recording of this stupendous symphony.

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On 7/18/2018 at 3:26 PM, Kal Rubinson said:

Another good option is XRECODE-3.

That is working nicely so far but as folks say, figuring out what is what in terms of resolutions etc is tricky sometimes.

On 7/21/2018 at 2:28 AM, austinpop said:

I too use MakeMKV, then DVD Extractor. It is a multi step process, but easy enough.

 

DVDFab claims to be able to remove the jitter adding Cinavia watermark. Pricier but easy to use.

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