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Forgive me Computeraudiophiles, for I have sinned


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3 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

 I thought I was fairly clear that many, if not most, of the advantages of hirez seem to occur on the recording production side, but that to hear all of those advantages, one must play in hirez.

 

What confused me was you saying that you agreed with Alex ;)

 

3 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I don’t think there is any consensus agreement on the notion that oversampling is exactly equivalent to upsampling, or that oversampling produces the same measured and perceptual results as hirez recording + playback.   Theoretical arguments are not my thing.  I base my views on many, many measurements of actual DACs from many sources, most of them using oversampling with RBCD vs. hirez.  That, plus my own, non-scientific, anecdotal listening experience.  

 

Then we agree. I've been building software to do waveform analysis using PCM and now DSD files to determine differences and to allow direct comparisons of captured data, so no pure theory for me. I do prefer to understand the theory before doing any measurements.

 

3 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

But, measurably, there seem to be consistent, measured filter artifacts in RBCD playback, even with oversampling, that are shifted into ultrasonic inaudibility with hirez recording/playback.  I don’t think there is any solid evidence that oversampling, which we have had since the ‘80’s, accomplishes the same thing.  

 

OK, yes. But if these are shifted into ultrasonic range and then filtered out, what is the problem?

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4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 That is indeed possible. Perhaps Teresa can tell you the album number ?  

However, to fully understand where you are coming from in general, it would be helpful to know what the system you are using consists of.

For example, is it hardware based, CD/DVD player etc. or are you using a PC for playback ? 

IF you are using a PC for playback, (This IS Computer Audiophile Forum) are you playing from System Memory using a highly regarded S/W player such as jRiver ?

if not, what S/W are you playing the music with , and are you using A.S.I.O ?

 

I have a few ways to listen.  I have a regular stereo system - Paradigm Monitor 11s tower speakers (about 17 years old. Work great), Older Harmon Kardon Amp bi amping the paradigms,  Marantz CD player with digital outs to a Grace Design M900 DAC/Pre amp. Used to have a SACD player. 

 

or

 

Playing the wav file 4416 on my computer using the M900 onto some JBL near field monitors or Blue Mo Fi Headphones. No fancy player. Sounds the same in my DAW as in the regular players on my computer. I am using the xmos Stereo USB Audio Class 2 driver so I can play DSD and very high sample rates.

 

or

 

Listening on my MO FI headphones through my Rolland R44 portable recorder's digital outs to the M900.

 

It's not the set up. I don't think the acoustic of the concert hall is particularly beautiful, flatters, helps, or enhances the sound. The bass drum sounds dead as a door nail. 

 

This Gramophone Recording is by far superior,

 

https://www.deutschegrammophon.com/us/cat/4797445

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, bachish said:

Playing the wav file 4416 on my computer using the M900 onto some JBL near field monitors or Blue Mo Fi Headphones. No fancy player. Sounds the same in my DAW as in the regular players on my computer. I am using the xmos Stereo USB Audio Class 2 driver so I can play DSD and very high sample rates.

 

 What OS are you using ?  Are you playing music directly from System Memory ?  

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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8 hours ago, Teresa said:

It turns out I have two original recordings from Sound/mirror (see above) and based on those I won't be seeking them out. I listen in 2-channel, perhaps they are better in multi-channel?

Could be.  I don't bother listening to the stereo version if a genuine MCH exists.

Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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2 hours ago, bachish said:

 

Windows 10. I'm not streaming if that is what you are asking. The music is stored on my hard drive. 

 

2 hours ago, bachish said:

 

Windows 10. I'm not streaming if that is what you are asking. The music is stored on my hard drive. 

 O.K. I use W10/64.

To get a superior performance you need to bypass the dreaded Windows mixer which degrades SQ and S/N and turn off System sounds too.

To do this you are best using ASIO and playing from System Memory using a decent S/W player like jRiver or even the simplistic cPlay. Unless you  use something like this you are unlikely in your case to hear the subtle but worthwhile differences between 16/44.1 and 24/192 etc.Neither does the " Jack of all trades" Foobar 2000 come even close to the SQ obtainable using JRiver.

 A large number of C.A. members use JRiver for it's superior A and V performance.

 

 In my case I have an internal ASUS Xonar D2X soundcard using A.S.I.O, and play from System Memory (you need to choose the correct settings for this in JRiver too) via Coax SPDIF to a modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 into a Class A HA and AT W1000 headphones.

It can be a revelation to hear the differences compared with  Foobar 2000 , Power DVD, VLC Media player, even Sound Forge 9's own playback.

 The closest to this kind of performance that I have heard with Hardware was from a friend's Perfect Wave Transport which also plays from internal memory.

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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13 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

What confused me was you saying that you agreed with Alex ;)

 

 

Then we agree. I've been building software to do waveform analysis using PCM and now DSD files to determine differences and to allow direct comparisons of captured data, so no pure theory for me. I do prefer to understand the theory before doing any measurements.

 

 

OK, yes. But if these are shifted into ultrasonic range and then filtered out, what is the problem?

 

I agreed with Alex mainly about shifting filter artifacts into inaudible ultrasonic territory.  He and I likely differ on other details.

 

I am not seeing the elimination of filter artifacts in typical DAC measurements in RBCD, even with oversampling.  These are most visible in the time domain, not the frequency domain..  But, even if a DAC were near perfect with RBCD in this regard, the filter artifacts are likely to still be there in the signal itself from the A-D on the recording production side, unable to be fully and accurately dealt with in D-A.  

 

As for audibility, that is up to the listener.  And, it is subtle, so some hear it, some don’t, even in controlled listening tests.

 

If I sound like I am parroting Bob Stuart, much hated in this forum, there are many other audio scientists and practitioners who agree.  I am also no advocate for MQA.  I believe a hirez audio recording/playback chain audibly solves many of the problems MQA claims to address. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

but then... why bother with a genuine MCH if a great video exists...

1.  I cannot hear with my eyes (despite what some might say).

2.  There are so few great video music recordings as to be almost inconsequential.

3.  Recorded video distracts me from the music.

Kal Rubinson

Music in the Round

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

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15 hours ago, rando said:

For the sake of clarity she is referring to a selection off this album.

 

R-6085520-1410695624-8499.jpeg.jpg

 

Yes, that is the album the excerpt (O Fortuna) on Telarc's SACD Sampler No. 1 is from. 

 

13 hours ago, bachish said:

 

Yep, that's it.  This is one recording where some processing would have helped to compensate for the acoustic.

 

Each to their own. I'm sure glad Telarc didn't do any processing on their SACDs of the Atlanta Symphony as they are some of the finest sounding recordings I own. And in my system the acoustic sounds perfect with a very I am there feel. I would say the acoustics are fantastic. We are either not hearing the same things, have drastically different sounding audio systems, speaker placements, hearing or we live on different planets. Anyway if you don't like the way Telarc records, don't buy them. That's what I do, I try to buy only what I think I will like. And if I end up with something I don't like I sell it, trade it in or in the case of computer downloads delete the music file and all backups.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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6 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

2.  There are so few great video music recordings as to be almost inconsequential.

What your criteria for "great video music recording"?

 

7 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

3.  Recorded video distracts me from the music.

My experience too, but whole can be greater then sum of parts. So judged differently IMO.

Also can learn much about instruments, playing styles, &c. which is big bonus for me.

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11 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 O.K. I use W10/64.

To get a superior performance you need to bypass the dreaded Windows mixer which degrades SQ and S/N and turn off System sounds too.

To do this you are best using ASIO and playing from System Memory using a decent S/W player like jRiver or even the simplistic cPlay. Unless you  use something like this you are unlikely in your case to hear the subtle but worthwhile differences between 16/44.1 and 24/192 etc.Neither does the " Jack of all trades" Foobar 2000 come even close to the SQ obtainable using JRiver.

 A large number of C.A. members use JRiver for it's superior A and V performance.

 

 In my case I have an internal ASUS Xonar D2X soundcard using A.S.I.O, and play from System Memory (you need to choose the correct settings for this in JRiver too) via Coax SPDIF to a modified Musical Fidelity X-DAC V3 into a Class A HA and AT W1000 headphones.

It can be a revelation to hear the differences compared with  Foobar 2000 , Power DVD, VLC Media player, even Sound Forge 9's own playback.

 The closest to this kind of performance that I have heard with Hardware was from a friend's Perfect Wave Transport which also plays from internal memory.

 

Thanks for the info. To save time I called Grace Design directly and they said all my settings are good and with the driver I installed from their website it should be bit perfect playback, assuming the player I am using isn't doing any DSD behind the scenes, which it shouldn't be doing.  But I suppose it might be a good insurance for peace of mind to get a better player to be sure there is no funny business going on. I was advised to keep the levels all the way up on the computer and do all level changes with the DAC or I am throwing away bits. Other than that, they said I am good to go.

 

One thing that would be far more convienient is to get a better player, like you mention. Right now, with the plug in I'm using, I have to set the sample rate and bit depth manually. It can be a pain. A better player would do that automatically. 

 

But I'll look into it further. Thanks again for the info.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Teresa said:

 

Yes, that is the album the excerpt (O Fortuna) on Telarc's SACD Sampler No. 1 is from. 

 

 

Each to their own. I'm sure glad Telarc didn't do any processing on their SACDs of the Atlanta Symphony as they are some of the finest sounding recordings I own. And in my system the acoustic sounds perfect with a very I am there feel. I would say the acoustics are fantastic. We are either not hearing the same things, have drastically different sounding audio systems, speaker placements, hearing or we live on different planets. Anyway if you don't like the way Telarc records, don't buy them. That's what I do, I try to buy only what I think I will like. And if I end up with something I don't like I sell it, trade it in or in the case of computer downloads delete the music file and all backups.

 

Absolutely, if you like it, I think that's great.  The performance is wonderful no doubt, which is the most important thing to me.

 

But we also differ on the appropriateness of processing. I don't follow a dogmatic almost religious view of some audiophiles that processing is always bad. I think some processing to compensate for defects, especially with the quite amazing quality of the hardware and software today, often helps recordings.  

 

And just FYI, the acoustics in Symphony Hall was widely known to have serious issues prior to 2013 when they installed a new $500,000 shell on stage. To me, it's obvious in the recording that was recorded in the early 2000s but hey, Viva la difference! And maybe there is a re-release, who knows.

 

Now hear this! New $500,000 acoustical shell improves long-lamented sound in Symphony Hall

 

But the all-important change is in the sound. Musicians have long complained that it is difficult to hear one another on the stage, and the hall’s acoustics have left much to be desired. “The sound is more immediate; there is more bloom,” Murphy says. “Personally, I find it easier to make a quality sound, especially in quiet dynamics. I am hearing other sections of the orchestra much more easily, especially the woodwinds and the double basses.”

 

BTW, I didn't say I didn't like Telarc. Quite the opposite.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Teresa said:

Yes, that is the album the excerpt (O Fortuna) on Telarc's SACD Sampler No. 1 is from.

Old memory nags me of different Telarc/Atlanta 'Carmina Burina', but on vinyl. Think I had one, but not now. Anyone remember also?

Only keep Chesky, Decca, EMI, L'oiseau-Lyre, Reference R. & few other LPs.

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2 hours ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I am not seeing the elimination of filter artifacts in typical DAC measurements in RBCD, even with oversampling.  These are most visible in the time domain, not the frequency domain..  But, even if a DAC were near perfect with RBCD in this regard, the filter artifacts are likely to still be there in the signal itself from the A-D on the recording production side, unable to be fully and accurately dealt with in D-A.  

 

I agree: artifacts created in ADC process will be hard to remove. You can see artifacts in the frequency domain, too. I've been playing with an interesting tool that makes ringing and aliasing easy to spot. Here you can see some spikes resulting from ringing due to oversampling and filters being used. Horizontal axis is frequency, vertical is a factor indicating how strong the ringing is (as a pattern, not as volume):

 

image.thumb.png.eeeb80725816e42b252b0a050840c40c.png

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39 minutes ago, look&listen said:

Old memory nags me of different Telarc/Atlanta 'Carmina Burina', but on vinyl. Think I had one, but not now. Anyone remember also?

Only keep Chesky, Decca, EMI, L'oiseau-Lyre, Reference R. & few other LPs.

 

The second Telarc version is this vinyl album they later made an SACD of.  

 

R-10101779-1491644886-3936.jpeg.jpg

 

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3 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

1.  I cannot hear with my eyes (despite what some might say).

2.  There are so few great video music recordings as to be almost inconsequential.

3.  Recorded video distracts me from the music.

 

re #1 - you are missing out on synesthesia (also applies to car audio...)

 

re #2 - there are a few, esp. in the rock idiom

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Bachish

 Are you also using a USB cable with improved isolation between the Data and Power wires ?

There are cables available that have the power wires in a separate cable that still meet the correct USB specifications.

Ask in other areas of the forum.

Incidentally. JRiver is way more than just a high quality AV player, it can also do format conversions such as DTS (even multi-channel) to .wav etc. etc..

Alex 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 28-06-2020

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