edorr Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 Great idea. See if you get it to work on the cheap before cutting up expensive cables, and also validate it actually sounds better than AES. I have a few weeks to see how PS Audio does with the bridge, and wait for the HiFace to ship to the general public, before making a decision. Link to comment
barrows Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 "that the reviewer clearly states his opinion instead of some smoke and mirrors or kissing the manufacturer's arse for more ad revenue." I am lost as to what the above refers to? The PWD is definately superior via I2S in, as long as the the component generating the I2S signal is well sorted, with an accurate clocking circuit. I2S from the Evo should allow for good performance indeed (similar to the PWT), as the Evo operates on fixed frequency clocks: via I2S the Evo clock would become the master for the DAC chip in the PWD. With this connection one can take advantage of "native" mode, bypassing the ASRC (because it is not needed for jitter reduction). Shorter is better for I2S data transmission, I would place the Evo directly adjacent to the PWD and use as short a cable as possible. To commission a custom cable, I would choose a vendor who is already familar with making I2S cables, or at least USB cables and SPDIF cables (Lee Weiland at Cryoparts/Locus Design comes to mind, also Revelation Audio Labs). I would be tempted to use one of Wireworlds short high end HDMI cables, and have someone reterminate one end with RJ-45. An even better solution would be to have someone mod the Evo, with an HDMI jack for the I2S output. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
4est Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 I agree with barrows' "It really is not part of a reviewer's job to make a value judgment such as this, only someone considering purchasing such a device should be making this kind if judgement." But I think the reviewer is also saying what you did too, in the second paragraph. Indicating his/her value base. Art Dudley or Micheal Fremer. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
edorr Posted August 8, 2010 Share Posted August 8, 2010 IF the Evo to PWD over I2S with the right cable sounds as good as the PWT this would solve a lot problems for a lot of PWD owners waiting to use it to its full potential with their computer based music libraries. By all means try this out and post here what you are finding. Link to comment
edorr Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 In fact, the HiFace EVO pinout is as follows: "The I2S output provides raw I2S data out of the hiFace Evo on an RJ-45 socket. It has no galvanic isolation so its ground connection is same as the USB one. Pinout is as follows (pins are listed from left to right): 2,4,6,8) Ground 1) SDATA 3) LRCK 5) SCLK 7) MCLK Lines are driven by high-speed, high-current buffers capable of 25mA current drive on each line. Link to comment
edorr Posted August 9, 2010 Share Posted August 9, 2010 PS Audio actually posted the pinout for their HDMI I2S interface on DIYaudio.com This is the URL: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/164366-i2s-standards-ps-audio.html (see attached) If you have the same for the RJ45 end of the cable you should be good to go. Let me know if you get this to work! Link to comment
edorr Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 I inquired with empirical audio about RJ45 to HDMI interfacing of I2S. Empirical audio builds the "offramp", which is functionally the same as the Evo (including RJ45 I2S interface). They commented that because the interface on the PSAudio is differential (8 signals), while his (and the Evo's) I2S interfaces are single-ended (4 signals 4 grounds), you cannot simply fix this with a cable, but need to build an HDMI interface in the Evo (or offramp). Link to comment
xsajohn Posted August 10, 2010 Share Posted August 10, 2010 Makes sense. I wondered about that when looking at the pinouts - there's a whole lot more signals going into the PWD than the EVO supplies. PS Audio DirectStream DSD Bridge -> Classe CA-2200 - >B&W 803-D2, Nordost Tyr cabled. Synology NAS, MinimServer, BubbleDS. Link to comment
barrows Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 that M2Tech did not make the I2S output of the Evo differential. The PS Audio I2S scheme is public domain, they are very happy to share the design with other manufacturers (and DIYers). I bet Rick Cullen could make up a little mod board to produce the differential I2S for the Evo and other devices with single ended I2S feeds. Then one could have an Evo with differential I2S out on HDMI to match up with the PWD. He actually may have such a board already developed, as the W4S DAC2 uses the PS Audio spec I2S input, and Cullen Circuits have said they will mod CD transports for I2S (over HDMI) output. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
edorr Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 I just send Rick a question asking if he could do this. He may have reservations about doing it, because he is obviously very close to PS audio and PS audio may not be too happy about a viable alternative to the bridge on the market, after all the investment made in the bridge. On the other hand, if they could sell more DACs based on availability of a working USB to I2S solution they could see it as a plus. We'll see. On another note, has anyone compared the Evo to the Empirical Audio Offramp? Emprical audio is coming out with a 192 version of the offramp in October, it will support asynchronous USB. He has licensed the design from M2Tech, so it would probably be quite similar to the Evo (also in price), but have the benefit of upgradability of the clock. I am wondering if this would be a better USB to I2S mousetrap worth waiting for. Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Just a thought ... and maybe you were saying this already ... but wouldn't it be better to (try to) mod the Evo to provide differential i2s rather than trying to mod the PS Audio to accept single ended? If nothing else the cost of the Evo vs. the PWT makes this more sensible. I was interested in another comment... "The I2S output provides raw I2S data out of the hiFace Evo on an RJ-45 socket. It has no galvanic isolation so its ground connection is same as the USB one." Not sure if this is similar with other DACs using (async style) USB ... but could this be the reason that even async USB DACs are influenced by cables? A question to designers such as Gordon I guess. I did notice Empiracle Audio (sorry I can't remember your name as I write) made a similar comment on the performance of the Off Ramp and cables. Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
edorr Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Getting the Evo (or offramp) modded to interface with the standard PW DAC is precisely the option I am exploring. Link to comment
barrows Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 PS Audio will no problem with this: I used to work there and know those guys very well. It has always been their intention to share their I2S interface implementation, in hope that other manufacturers would adopt it, so that it could become a new standard (and do away with SPDIF in the process). I hope that Rick can set an Evo up with the I2S on HDMI out for you, it should not be too difficult (but would require designing a small board to install in the Evo). SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
audioengr Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 The EVO I2S is compatible with Empirical Audio, not PSAudio. PSAudio needs more than just a HDMI connector. The signalling is differential. 8 signals needed at LVDS levels. M2Tech and Empirical Audio use Single-Ended 3.3V CMOS levels. 4 signals, 4 returns. I am looking at modeling a PSAudio type HDMI interface on my Off-Ramp 3. The added differential buffer will add a little jitter, but it should work fine. Steve N. Empirical Audio Link to comment
audioengr Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 "Not sure if this is similar with other DACs using (async style) USB ... but could this be the reason that even async USB DACs are influenced by cables? A question to designers such as Gordon I guess. I did notice Empirical Audio (sorry I can't remember your name as I write) made a similar comment on the performance of the Off Ramp and cables." There is a difference here. Although galvanic isolation is useful in elimination of cable sensitivity, async interfaces dont need it. This sensitivity depends on the design though. My older CEntrance 24/96 USB interface is Adaptive, so the jitter on the cable can affect the PLL. A good cable is necessary. Steve N. Empirical Audio Link to comment
audioengr Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 "On another note, has anyone compared the Evo to the Empirical Audio Offramp? Empirical audio is coming out with a 192 version of the offramp in October, it will support asynchronous USB. He has licensed the design from M2Tech, so it would probably be quite similar to the Evo (also in price), but have the benefit of upgradability of the clock. I am wondering if this would be a better USB to I2S mousetrap worth waiting for." I think the EVO is too new for any comparisons. If its not better than other converters, its not worth doing IMO. My current version of 192 async is the Pace-Car USB. This does have galvanic isolation of the I2S bus and USB bus. Monolith LI battery supply is optional. Steve N. Empirical Audio Link to comment
edorr Posted August 13, 2010 Share Posted August 13, 2010 "PS Audio will no problem with this: I used to work there and know those guys very well. It has always been their intention to share their I2S interface implementation, in hope that other manufacturers would adopt it, so that it could become a new standard (and do away with SPDIF in the process). I hope that Rick can set an Evo up with the I2S on HDMI out for you, it should not be too difficult (but would require designing a small board to install in the Evo)." I spoke with Rick and he is very amenable to building something that will deliver PS Audio compliant I2S over HDMI with a 192 asynchronous USB converter. I'll let you know how the project progresses. Link to comment
KingStyles Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Does anybody know if the evo is going to trickle out or do they have enough made that they will be able to fill all orders right off? Imac > Offramp4 > Ayon Skylla > Eddie Current B.A./Stax 717 > LCD-3/SR007 mk1 Link to comment
xsajohn Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 I just got an email from Mike (Tweekgeek) that it's still in pre-order stage. So yeah, trickle for now. PS Audio DirectStream DSD Bridge -> Classe CA-2200 - >B&W 803-D2, Nordost Tyr cabled. Synology NAS, MinimServer, BubbleDS. Link to comment
MartinC700 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Recieved mine from Mike a week ago, but I believe that I was one of the first to preorder a couple of months ago. Very pleased with the Evo, it is definately an upgrade from the HiFace. Sounds very good with my DA11 even using the supplied wall wart supply. Regards MartinC Link to comment
nvhoang2000 Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I´m using now Hiface rca, it sounds good but somehow it´s too cold for my ears, it lacks the feeling, harmony and emotion when i listen to vocals. I´m having Dac Magic and Matrix mini, the Matrix mi ni passt with Hiface better than Dac Magic, but this combination is still not the level which i get from the spdif out put of my onboard soundcard. I like the clarity, details of Hiface RCA but i hate the unemotional of it. I dont know if the Evo can fix this weakness of Hiface RCA ???? Link to comment
barrows Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 that the Hiface may be allowing you to hear what your DAC(s) really sound like, and that it is the SPDIF out from your sound card that is flawed (technically). The SPDIF from your soundcard is likely producing a much higher amount of jitter at the DAC(s) than the Hiface, but you may be finding that you like the sound of the higher jitter in your system as it is. Sometimes jitter (depending on type) can "soften" and "veil" the sound a little-with a DAC/system that is a little hard this effect can be pleasing. Two things I would suggest trying-jkenny's Hiface mod, which powers the Hiface clock from a battery (do a google search for details), and after doing the mod, then work on tuning your entire system a little to dial in the tonal balance-start with speaker placement-toe in adjustments, and work on power conditioning next. SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers. ISOAcoustics Oreas footers. SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | Accessories | Software | Link to comment
Purite Audio Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Just been listening to the new EVO using a lithium ion rechargeable battery, results are extraordinarily good, who would have thought USB could sound so wonderful. More trials with a linear p/s to follow,Keith. Link to comment
Lowlands Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Keith, Any thoughts...? :-) Reg, Hans Bits to analog: Server [i9-10850k; Win10Pro, Roon Core + HQPlayer4 >all DSD256x] -> mRendu -> Regen -> Lampi GG Analog to sound: ASR Emitter II Exclusive, Battery -> Gryphon Mojo S + 2 x REL G2 Details: Audio System Link to comment
Purite Audio Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Shall we just say that the EVO is an incredible bargain! Keith. Link to comment
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