Lies about vinyl vs digital

[PeterSt]

12 minutes ago, sandyk said:

" More body"  is perhaps a better description than I gave though.

 

Yes. But more body does not apply to vinyl if it is woolly at the same time (and it always is). Also, the real body can't exist because of the high passing applied to LP. Of course this now requires a decent sub-low playback system (speaker), but why should it not be allowed to think that this exists.

When all is taken into account, vinyl is a most inaccurate means of playback which is easy to hear from any angle. And btw, ticks would not bother me (the contrary they still belong, historically).

 

What bothers me most, by far, these days, is that digital carries an explicit flavor. This flavor is gray, not dynamical, always mono, flat and with that the worst: always the same (flavor). A killing feature (well, for me it is).

I think I have 2000 or so LP rips from about as many "rippers", and they always sound the same. Whether it is Led Zeppelin or Ray brown, or Roberta Flack. No such a think with digital (and if after all, then something is wrong or not optimal). So mind you, the first thing digital should not be, is sounding digital. I wonder how many can say that (genuinely).

 

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Yes. But more body does not apply to vinyl if it is woolly at the same time (and it always is

Different words, but hopefully a similar meaning in this case. I used diffused instead of woolly

 

28 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

the first thing digital should not be, is sounding digital. I wonder how many can say that (genuinely).

 

 It doesn't have to sound that way. It's a belief with many, just like Solid State amplifiers sound cold and clinical.

[kelvinwsy]

Mosaic Jazz Festival here.. Stacey Kent and her husband and Band were festured! Live Real music but was amplified.. Stacey did not warm up until the middle of the 4th song

Moral of this story Even live music needs tuning

 

So many of us struggle to tune our digital playback system to rid it of the digital greyness. 

As for Vinyl it is mechanical resonances, noise, and to stretch the fidelity of the playback system

Amplification - take your pick Even Order Harmonic Distortion or DC to Mhz freq range with Solid State .. Pick your poison😁

It is a continuous struggle...the hifi adventure .. the enjoyment is in the pursuit and journey .. Always elusive target ...within sight but beyond reach

[semente]

49 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

So mind you, the first thing digital should not be, is sounding digital.

 

I think that you've hit the nail on the head here. Good digital has little artificialness (it sounds like instruments and vocals being "generated" in space) whilst vinyl can never get rid of it's own sound (it always sounds like reproduced sound).

[PeterSt]

1 minute ago, semente said:

Good digital has little artificialness (it sounds like instruments and vocals being "generated" in space)

 

Yes. Now you describe it like that, I think this is quite true. Still it is so that for me (and so many more) the "digitus" finally disappeared something like 2 years ago. When someone made a new USB cable. 

So for the life of me I couldn't get rid of the "digital" sound without that. Not that I really knew that - or recognized it as digital. It was indeed the more clinical thing (hard to counteract with OS settings). Not so at all any more.

[STC]

The whole purpose of stereo is to generate the instrument/vocal in space. 

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, STC said:

The whole purpose of stereo is to generate the instrument/vocal in space. 

I thought it was to sell twice as many speakers.

[STC]

3 minutes ago, mansr said:

I thought it was to sell twice as many speakers.

 

At one time that too!   

 

I find it amusing that digital is being blamed for creating the phantom images in space. That what is suppose to do. 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

Still it is so that for me (and so many more) the "digitus" finally disappeared something like 2 years ago. When someone made a new USB cable.

Peter, have you tried jssg360 and it's variants on a DC cable? That's yet another way to remove the "digititus". Funny a USB cable is also a DC cable isn't it?

[PeterSt]

10 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Peter, have you tried jssg360 and it's variants on a DC cable?

 

Larry, there is nothing I can imagine where I personally can apply a DC cable to. Unless it is internal wiring of course.

So headless PC /w internal LPS -> DAC -> Poweramps (and PC connects to Ethernet with music server at the other end).

[Rexp]

17 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Eh- might be time to think out of the box. I have a half speed mastered version of Rumors tat hands down sounds better than any of the digital copies I have, which is totally weird to me. Rumors was recorded on a 24 track machine and not under the best of conditions. It was recorded piece by piece, using multi track techniques since the musicians were a bit at odds with each other at the time and not even really talking to each other. Not to mention using enough drugs to supply a hospital for a month or two.

 

How that album can sound as good as it does is always a bit amazing to me. It was recorded in a dead sounding studio and subjected to quite a lot of equalization to make it sound like the band members were at least performing with each other, instead of separately. 

 

My my conclusion is the equalization makes it work better on vinyl. It was intended for vinyl distribution. 

 

The digital versions are more more true to the recording I suspect, being engineered and mixed / altered for fidelity more than to sound good on vinyl. 

Isn't the conclusion that it depends on the mastering and if you want access to the best masters you need a turntable and digital source? 

[Paul R]

55 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Isn't the conclusion that it depends on the mastering and if you want access to the best masters you need a turntable and digital source? 

Only for that particular album I think. 

 

And there is a bone even in that. You can record the album and have a digital playback that sounds exactly like the album. 😁

 

 

[lmitche]

5 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Larry, there is nothing I can imagine where I personally can apply a DC cable to. Unless it is internal wiring of course.

So headless PC /w internal LPS -> DAC -> Poweramps (and PC connects to Ethernet with music server at the other end).

Got it!

 

Yes, I've done internal wires as well. However most of my gear is externally powered so the JSSG360 benefits are quite substantial.

[Doak]

12 hours ago, Rexp said:

Isn't the conclusion that it depends on the mastering and if you want access to the best masters you need a turntable and digital source? 

Yes .....except when the best mastering is on digital. 

[lucretius]

12 hours ago, Paul R said:

And there is a bone even in that. You can record the album and have a digital playback that sounds exactly like the album. 😁

 

Sure but the distortion of the turntable/cartridge/phono preamp, etc. are also recorded.

[John Dyson]

 

IMO (probably more than a guess than actual opinion), the big thing that got the 'elite vinyl'  thing started in the first place was very poor preparation and handling of the digitally distributed material.   Digital nowadays, even at 44.1k/16bits can blow away any vinyl (except dbx encoded)... period, but the material being delivered by the digital medium has sometimes (often) been inferior to the material provided by the vinyl medium.  Most often, which medium has not been the big difference (assuming not using the totally cr*p vinyl that had been used in the past and assuming proper digital technology.)  We ALL never realized that we weren't getting the same 'stuff' on digital -- we blamed the poor quality on 'digital'.  This started creating the meme that somehow vinyl was 'better' or more 'elite.'  I guess it really helped some of those companies that produce the hyper fancy turntables, rigiht? :-).

 

It *does* make sense to immediately archive audiophile quality vinyl onto digital -- get the advantage of probable better mastering, and longer lasting (digital doesn't wear.)  There is the cartrige/needle/vinyl distortion and cartridge/preamp noise, freq response, transient response and distortion and vinyl noise -- but in reality, they don't detract all that much assuming good quality equipment and material. Just because I enumerate lots of defects, it doesn't mean that they totally detract from the enjoyment. 

 

Poorly prepared (they call it 'mastering' - but I don't want to blame the parties doing the work) material CAN seriously detract from the experience.

 

The very regrettable thing -- a lot of the 'old' music being presented in a very inferior way.  Nowadays, even vinyl is sometimes poorly mastered -- and it isn't the person doing the preparation (mastering) fault -- it is penny pinching and bad documentation.

 

IMO -- by focusing on the distribution mechanism (other than stuff that decreases freedom or obscures the material for political, economic reasons), the real problems aren't always being addressed.  Of course, nonsense that adds an aspect of DRM or some kind of access control -- those DO diminish from enjoyment.

 

When I had/made lots of money, I'd pay true top-dollar for the best quality, but if they added some kind of DRM -- might as well buy a cheap 45 -- I'd enjoy that as much -- both DRM and bad vinyl grate on my nerves.

 

My two cents -- I just don't believe in the idea that vinyl itself is all that beneficial, other than as access to properly handled/mastered material (and access to material that is only on vinyl.)  Nothing wrong with vinyl -- and it is nice to have something that can be physically played given a planet of the apes scenario, but by itself, vinyl has ZERO technical advantages for ultimate quality.

 

John

[Blake]

 Say what you want but one thing I can say about GUTB, he didn't give a @##* about what anyone else thought.  He spoke his mind.  And  he was right... Class D does suck. 

 

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, Blake said:

 Say what you want but one thing I can say about GUTB, he didn't give a @##* about what any thought.  And Class D does suck.

 

 

You are not wrong on both counts, says he putting on his flack jacket.

[PeterSt]

3 hours ago, John Dyson said:

but in reality, they don't detract all that much assuming good quality equipment and material. Just because I enumerate lots of defects, it doesn't mean that they totally detract from the enjoyment.

 

I'd say that in that case your digital is not good enough. Sorry ...

[acg]

23 hours ago, PeterSt said:

When all is taken into account, vinyl is a most inaccurate means of playback which is easy to hear from any angle.

 

 

Just this weekend gone I heard a cheap Rega TT with a cheap cartridge and a cheap phonostage play Guns N Roses "Civil War" so well it may as well have slayed my dac...my Phasure dac.  Most likely the mastering is different between the two formats but on that track the vinyl was a whole order of magnitude better than the digital.

 

The only black and white in this vinyl vs digital debate is in the theory department, because even though digital is the superior format in almost every way, sometimes, with some recordings, vinyl has the edge.

 

LP rips have never worked either for me Peter, sounding as you described hollow, small and ordinary, but it seems as though the problem is the rip.  Good thing an LP can sound extraordinary, because the mastering is often much better, and there are a lot of older recordings of fantastic music that I cannot get digitally. 

[John Dyson]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

I'd say that in that case your digital is not good enough. Sorry ...

Where did I claim that digital wasn't good enough?  Did you read exactly what I wrote?  The statement (paraphrased) that digital technically blows away vinyl should have been early in my statement... Did you read that?

Did you read that I said that arguing about digital vs vinyl doesnt' really address the actual problem?

 

If read carefully, I was critical of vinyl and made no serious negative comments about the digital technical quality.  In fact, I can get audiophile vinyl (or better) quality from a lot of seemingly inferior digital material because of the digital copy's lack of proper preparation (again, trying to avoid the term 'mastering'.)

 

 I sometimes don't read very well when not totally awake...  Maybe the same is true for you also?  Nuances are difficult to communicate nowadays with the sound-bite type media nowadays.

 

John

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, acg said:

sometimes, with some recordings, vinyl has the edge.

 

Hey Anthony. Although you may be right, I found zero of them, especially on the somewhat longer term listening (the flavor thing). And I really try, because indeed quite some material does not exist on CD. But it is my so many miles "off" that it only brings down my mood.

 

Btw, I don't know any more whether you were in that thread where I mentioned Beastie Boys as being very difficult via digital, while actually it sounds "superb" in the car. Well, it still can happen to me that it is totally shouting and harsh, but I am in the stage of it already being better than in the car.

Same could count for your Guns N Roses example, that being in the same order of "noise" (at times). I mean, analogue (LP) rounds so much off from the transients, that it becomes a full and palpable sound. But point is : digital at its very best is even more palpable, more full and with infinitely more detail at the same time.

And I recognize nothing of the recording or mastering (of course there is a (at times huge) difference) - IMO it is not that.

 

Maybe you recall me telling (Phasure forum) of me visiting the "Pickup days" in Holland, which is an annual event where Mr van den Hul attends to tune turn tables for anyone who likes that (just bring your TT). - Btw, since last year he stopped with that job. Anyway, everybody raving, me with hurting ears after 6 hours or so of listening to everything which passes by, and when I got home there was infinite relief. Plus an unsurpassed more content in the same tracks, now from CD (file). Each year again the same thing.

 

Btw, the bet with vdHul still stands that I will smash his Vinyl with whatever his cartridges (he lives 150m down the road) but it could be out of respect that I will leave it at that.

 

I will try Civil War tonight and will try to bring across how I perceive it (probably not the best, but we'll see).

 

Peter

 

PS: There's also more going on that makes things incomparable.  I mean, suppose you use a preamp (quite necessary for LP). So easy enough, when I use a preamp, my digital sounds like sh*t, no matter what I try. It just isn't accurate any more. Compare *that* to digital, and who knows what happens.

 

PPS: An example of the other way around: Porcupine Tree. Quite heavy (though always good melodies), sounding superbly on digital. The difference could be the delicate details in their music, that coming forward because of "digital" (transients).

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Where did I claim that digital wasn't good enough?  Did you read exactly what I wrote? 

 

John, my reading is in perfect order today. Your context evaluation may be less (encouraged by my English of course).

 

All I said with my small sentence is that Vinyl is so distracting to me, that there is no single way that (in my situation) vinyl is good enough to not detract from enjoyment. See my precious response to ACG as well - I say exactly the same there.

IOW ... if it happens to someone that vinyl may be OK-ish, then his reference to digital is not the best.

Nothing personal - all system related.

 

There are a virtual million of people that like vinyl for the better all the way. According to you that must be "wrong" (according to me too ;-).

I coincidentally say that vinyl detracts all the way. But it relates to my digital system.

If your system is "better", then I am just wrong (poor ears and such).

 

Regards,

Peter

[John Dyson]

Just now, PeterSt said:

 

John, my reading is in perfect order today. Your context evaluation may be less (encouraged by my English of course).

 

All I said with my small sentence is that Vinyl is so distracting to me, that there is no single way that (in my situation) vinyl is good enough to not detract from enjoyment. See my precious response to ACG as well - I say exactly the same there.

IOW ... if it happens to someone that vinyl may be OK-ish, then his reference to digital is not the best.

Nothing personal - all system related.

 

There are a virtual million of people that like vinyl for the better all the way. According to you that must be "wrong" (according to me too ;-).

I coincidentally say that vinyl detracts all the way. But it relates to my digital system.

If your system is "better", then I am just wrong (poor ears and such).

 

Regards,

Peter

I don't even have a turntable, and not likely to get one.  There are so many people that accept the rumble (and it is always there), distortion that comes from heating/stretching the vinyl (the needle) and other things like that -- I have to accept the fact that vinyl must be good enough for some people.  Read the 'story' below as an additional reason why I am a bit more tolerant than the digital purist that I would normally be.

 

Also, I have been *initially* fooled by ripped material from audiophile grade vinyl -- thought it was originally digital until I listened carefully to the lead-in rumble (very amazingly slight), the very minimal defects, and looking at the spectogram to confirm.  When doing a direct A/B (unless on a bad spot) -- I was amazed.   Additionally, the material was tada *DolbyA encoded* -- that was a crazy mix of situations that I still don''t understand how it happened.    I still have the rips as a reminder about vinyl someitimes  *almost* being good enough.  The original recordings were done by a music group whose technical quality is *variable* so that is probably why I was more accepting in that instance -- but it was still *educational* and has blunted my absolutism on the subject.

 

* An old friend gave me the material abt 10yrs ago, and I don't know the provenance...  I don't normally keep that kind of stuff around, but it was unique enough to keep as a reminder.

 

John

[PeterSt]

I could make it more complicated by stating that for me a remaster for digital in general, is more detracting than vinyl. I can't listen to that at all. In the car I wouldn't notice that (as long as the vocoders stay out).

 

Try the Hires of Court of the Crimson King as a best example of a "remaster" and the total ugliness of it. Compare with the "native" redbook (if you can find it) which is the most beautiful which exists. On digital. From 1969. Just one example people should know.

 

Anyway, I don't want to be right on this. Everybody has his own reference and enjoyment. But people can miss out so much in this great hobby. Really. Feels like a waste to me.

Btw, this is all still in the realm of the lie about vinyl vs digital.