Lies about vinyl vs digital

[Ralf11]

8 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I'm a mand of the people 

 

is that like being a mans?

[esldude]

10 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I'm not as simple-minded as I may appear to you.  ^Corrections^ accordingly.

You might want to spend a few minutes watching this oft pointed to video.  It might not explain it to your satisfaction, but it will certainly show you that really does work.

 

A sinc function and low pass filtering should let you understand it. 

 

 

[Ralf11]

a search on polynomial curve-fitting might prove to be instructive

 

but you will find that "that isn't really where it's at"

 

You try so hard but you don't understand

 

so just hand in your ticket

 

nonetheless, a sufficiently high polynomial can reconstruct anything

 

now, how high do ya wanna get?

[danadam]

32 minutes ago, mansr said:

The DAC works by first connecting the dots in whatever crude manner, then removing the illegal frequencies this created. What remains is the correct waveform.

Known as Holmes-Watson theorem:

When you have excluded the illegal frequencies, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the correct waveform.

[The_K-Man]

51 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

is that like being a mans?

 

Dude: I grew up on an IBM SELECTRIC BALL TYPEWRITER.  Not some fricking piece of hit-or-miss glass, okay?  

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I'm not as simple-minded as I may appear to you.

 

Good to know. 👺

 

On the other hand, I am more simple-minded than I may appear.

[The_K-Man]

56 minutes ago, esldude said:

You might want to spend a few minutes watching this oft pointed to video.  It might not explain it to your satisfaction, but it will certainly show you that really does work.

 

A sinc function and low pass filtering should let you understand it. 

 

 

 

I've watched and shared that video so many times, just to educate all the 'stair-stepper' digital doubters(many of them audiophiles) out there!  It should be mandatory viewing for anyone involved in the production of audio in the digital realm, or anybody who thinks digital audio itself 'does something' to the sound of recorded music!

[The_K-Man]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

Good to know. 👺

 

On the other hand, I am more simple-minded than I may appear.

 

No.  Maybe an audiophile, but not simple-minded.  I'm not sure if that represents much of a choice though.  🤣🤣🤣

[John Dyson]

2 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

How does the DAC determine the radius of said smooth curve?

 

Juicy!  Mmmmhh!  🤤  Technical detail, yum!

 

So I suppose a good DAC has algorithms programmed in to it to "remove the illegal"(non-Nyquist) frequencies?

I know that this is hard to believe but the smoothed  curve and all of the correct smoothing is done by the LPF.  It just so happens that all of the math works out.   An appropriate (usually sharp) reconstruction filter just happens to do the magic as needed to change the samples into the correct waveform.   If you don't use a linear phase filter, some of the waveforms will get twisted because of inconsitent arrival times vs. frequency, but the energy will even be correct with something like a minimum phase filter if it has the correct cutoff.  A constant delay filter (typically  linear phase) will tend to keep the 'coherent' (not quite the correct term) wave shapes like square, rectangle as close to the original as the bandpass allows.

The important thing is that the filter needs to be rolled off way down by 1/2 the sample rate.

 

 

 

 

[The_K-Man]

4 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

I know that this is hard to believe but the smoothed  curve and all of the correct smoothing is done by the LPF.  It just so happens that all of the math works out.   An appropriate (usually sharp) reconstruction filter just happens to do the magic as needed to change the samples into the correct waveform.   If you don't use a linear phase filter, some of the waveforms will get twisted because of inconsitent arrival times vs. frequency, but the energy will even be correct with something like a minimum phase filter if it has the correct cutoff.  A constant delay filter (typically  linear phase) will tend to keep the 'coherent' (not quite the correct term) wave shapes like square, rectangle as close to the original as the bandpass allows.

The important thing is that the filter needs to be rolled off way down by 1/2 the sample rate.

 

 

 

 

 

'linear phase' meaning no + or - phase shift across... range of reproducible frequencies?

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

'linear phase' meaning no + or - phase shift across... range of reproducible frequencies?

Right. Linear phase means the filter has a constant time delay regardless of frequency, or that the phase shift is linear with frequency: if a 1 kHz tone is phase-shifted by N degrees, a 2 kHz tone is shifted 2N degrees, and so on. The latter expression of the property is where the name linear phase comes from.

[fas42]

10 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I don't know what  to make of ^this^!   Can you sort out that disaster?

 

Pretty simple.

 

Quote

This doesn't excuse bad mastering;

 

Happy with that?

 

Quote

don't blame particularly poor subjective reproduction as being caused by "accurate" playback

 

What people call "accurate" I usually find very obviously audibly flawed - they jump up and down about "great measurements!", but there are deficiencies in the, yes, accuracy which the ears are sensitive to that you could drive a bus through. So, subjectively, they "mess up the recording" - the number of expensive rigs I've heard where half of the detail is missing, and what's left has been energetically trampled on - but the audiophiles around me are blissfully unaware ...

 

IOW, don't point to a rig and say that must be telling the full story, because of a few numbers you throw at me - recordings when competently played back can still be enjoyed as an experience, "no matter how bad", because they allow the ear/brain to hear past the issues.

[The_K-Man]

39 minutes ago, mansr said:

Right. Linear phase means the filter has a constant time delay regardless of frequency, or that the phase shift is linear with frequency: if a 1 kHz tone is phase-shifted by N degrees, a 2 kHz tone is shifted 2N degrees, and so on. The latter expression of the property is where the name linear phase comes from.

 

I like the sound of that... Linear Phase... Twin 200hp Evinrudes, GPS nav, auto-cruise, stereo in the head and above decks- OH, getting carried away there!  🛥!

[The_K-Man]

26 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Pretty simple.

 

 

Happy with that?

 

 

What people call "accurate" I usually find very obviously audibly flawed - they jump up and down about "great measurements!", but there are deficiencies in the, yes, accuracy which the ears are sensitive to that you could drive a bus through. So, subjectively, they "mess up the recording" - the number of expensive rigs I've heard where half of the detail is missing, and what's left has been energetically trampled on - but the audiophiles around me are blissfully unaware ...

 

IOW, don't point to a rig and say that must be telling the full story, because of a few numbers you throw at me - recordings when competently played back can still be enjoyed as an experience, "no matter how bad", because they allow the ear/brain to hear past the issues.

 

If you're suggesting using the rig to 'remaster' the recording during playback, nahh, I ain't into that freaky stuff.  😜

[STC]

58 minutes ago, mansr said:

Linear phase means the filter has a constant time delay regardless of frequency, or that the phase shift is linear with frequency: if a 1 kHz tone is phase-shifted by N degrees,

 

Thanks for this. Isn’t this “constant time delay” where the phase identical also known as “pure delay” ?  Just been looking for the proper definition of pure delay. 

 

Thanks again. 

[kumakuma]

2 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Maybe an audiophile

 

 

What do you mean?

[StephenJK]

2 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Dude: I grew up on an IBM SELECTRIC BALL TYPEWRITER.  Not some fricking piece of hit-or-miss glass, okay?  

Listen to Mr. Fancy Schmancy with his electric typewriter!  We had an Underwood manual, and were happy to have that!

[The_K-Man]

2 minutes ago, SJK said:

Listen to Mr. Fancy Schmancy with his electric typewriter!  We had an Underwood manual, and were happy to have that!

 

Both were real good ol fashion keyboards is the point.  Humans were not meant to type with just two thumbs.  

 

It took me five minutes to type the above, of which three were spent backing up and correcting shit.  Heaven help if I had to type a TERM PAPER on this device - it would take me a whole month! lol

[The_K-Man]

16 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

What do you mean?

 

What would you like it to mean?

[esldude]

3 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Both were real good ol fashion keyboards is the point.  Humans were not meant to type with just two thumbs.  

 

It took me five minutes to type the above, of which three were spent backing up and correcting shit.  Heaven help if I had to type a TERM PAPER on this device - it would take me a whole month! lol

You should learn to swipe.  It is better than two thumb poke method.  It will take a few hours to adapt.  In time it can come close to using a normal keyboard in speed and ease of use.  What holds it up is portable devices interjecting what they think you meant, when you meant what you entered.  I wouldn't want to do a term paper, but swiping I think I could. 

[The_K-Man]

1 minute ago, esldude said:

You should learn to swipe.  It is better than two thumb poke method.  It will take a few hours to adapt.  In time it can come close to using a normal keyboard in speed and ease of use.  What holds it up is portable devices interjecting what they think you meant, when you meant what you entered.  I wouldn't want to do a term paper, but swiping I think I could. 

 

I turned off all that auto-crap on my Apples. I'm a manual kind of guy, don't even need power windows in the car lol!

 

Care to explain 'swiping', and does it require another 'app'?

 

(time to type the above: 6m47sec)

[mansr]

8 minutes ago, esldude said:

You should learn to swipe.

Left or right?

[esldude]

3 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I turned off all that auto-crap on my Apples. I'm a manual kind of guy, don't even need power windows in the car lol!

 

Care to explain 'swiping', and does it require another 'app'?

 

(time to type the above: 6m47sec)

Your concept of time is off.  You posted the above 3 minutes after I did.  Giving you a minute to see it and then type you had to type the above in 2 minutes or so instead of nearly 7 minutes.  

 

https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/10/how-to-use-swipe-or-glide-typing-on-iphone/

Look at the animation at the bottom of the page. 

 

With swiping you put a finger on the first letter and slide your finger to touch all the rest of the letters in a word.  Lightly lift and do the same for the next word.  Sounds much more awkward than it is.  With a little practice just like whole words become something of one coordinated action from your fingers, a swiping pattern becomes one pattern for one finger.  You can soon with not much thinking about swiping instead translate your thoughts via swiping more similar to typing. 

[The_K-Man]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

Your concept of time is off.  You posted the above 3 minutes after I did.  Giving you a minute to see it an

 

I'm still thumbing dude!  I guess I'm just not confident or happy to be typing on glass.  Been doing it for 7 years now, still feels alien to me.

 

I want that IBM desktop keyboard or Smith Corona back  😀

[esldude]

8 minutes ago, mansr said:

Left or right?

Yes.  Up and down and diagonally too. 

 

Of course there is always dictating to phones.  If you are somewhere it doesn't bother anyone, that works pretty well too.  Just learn the punctuation, and it goes along nicely.