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Lies about vinyl vs digital


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9 hours ago, GUTB said:

Time for some real talk.

 

My digital source is better than most members' of CA. Just being real. Most of you guys are running el-cheapo streamers, junk-berry servers with consumer NAS units, laptops, mac minis, etc.

 

I have a custom PC running an I7-7700K with a large passive cooler, no fans anywhere. Paul Pang V3 USB card powered by dedicated battery. SSD on a separate dedicated battery to completely isolate the entire system from SSD noise. Linear ATX PSU. Windows 10 running Fidelizer Pro, Roon and HQPlayer for DSD512 up-sampling (the reason for the powerful CPU). Single RAM stick to minimize noise. It's not perfect because of switching-mode voltage regulators, but very decent.

 

All audio components are on a dedicated circuit and plugged into a Panamax 5400 filter with the exception of the PC and amp (I felt the Panamax is current-starving my power amps). There isn't a single SMPS on the circuit. All components are using audiophile-grade AC cables, except the PC which I feel doesn't make a difference.

 

There are probably less than 20 people on CA with better digital source systems than what I have.

 

I have two DACs in the system currently: a MHZS CD88J CDP which has a tubed power supply and output stage, and the Holo Cyan DSD which is a native DSD-only resistor ladder design. This gives me the ability to listen to two very different digital architectures and compare it with my analog.

 

One of my favorite LPs is Belafonte at Carnegie Hall (200g Analogue Productions)

220px-Belafonte_at_Carnegie_Hall.jpg

 

The same album on Tidal:

https://tidal.com/browse/album/45182945

 

Long story short, the LP crushes the streaming version. The main issue? The digital version seems severely hampered in terms of dynamic force / power, but there are other factors which aren't as easy to pin down, but nevertheless do something in the LP which adds to sense of realism which is missing from the digital version.

 

 

Get a good digital file of the record and see if the playback is better than what you get from Tidal. AFAIR,  that album is available  in hi-res. Willing to bet you the digital download will sound better than your Tidal steam. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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9 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

Not "lies" so much as simple misunderstanding.

 

Ever hear of something called the 'loudness war'?

 

Well, there's been a loudness race going almost back to wax cylinders, but when digital audio and the CD debuted closing in on 40 years ago, the loudness war in recorded music went NUCLEAR.

 

Digital was metered in peaks, not average, or RMS.  About 10 years into the life of the CD, music producers and engineers discovered they could peak normalize albums.  Peak normalization led to peak limiting, which when combined with increasing doses of dynamics compression and make-up gain, could produce an album 10-15dB louder average listening level, than one released at any point in the 1980s.  The penalty: Decline and loss of realistic transients and openness that gave the recording depth.

 

To summarize, it is the MASTERING, in the digital domain, not any digital format itself(Redbook CD, 24bit high res, lossy MP3, etc) that slowly lent the impression that digital audio was 'lifeless' or 'dull' next to a vinyl equivalent of the same album release.

 

All of the latest, most expensive external DACs, internconnects, room treatments, and boutique speaker wiring will make maybe a percent or two difference in what you hear, compared to simply locating a better source.   Some early CDs suffered from first generation ADCs that suffered from clock jitter or excessive quantization errors.  That might explain some of the coldness some of the 'vinyl is better' crowd is experiencing with those CDs compared to more relatively recent CD releases.

 

This is what the general public is slowly being made aware of, one thread at a time, in forums such as this one.

 

 

No, the loudness war  is only one factor.  There are also plenty of CDs without heavy loudness compression that don't sound great. Clearly mastering is crucial. Lots of factors go into making a good sounding CD. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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9 hours ago, GUTB said:

I have a custom PC running an I7-7700K with a large passive cooler, no fans anywhere. Paul Pang V3 USB card powered by dedicated battery. SSD on a separate dedicated battery to completely isolate the entire system from SSD noise. Linear ATX PSU. Windows 10 running Fidelizer Pro, Roon and HQPlayer for DSD512 up-sampling (the reason for the powerful CPU). Single RAM stick to minimize noise. It's not perfect because of switching-mode voltage regulators, but very decent.

 

ROTFL

 

9 hours ago, GUTB said:

the Holo Cyan DSD which is a native DSD-only resistor ladder design.

 

Very funny.

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8 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

 

The Loudness War is DEAD - Long live the Content War!  ?

Listen to almost any recent pop/rock/hip-hop/ country  CD  or remaster intended for the mass market and I think you will find the loudness war is alive and well. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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5 minutes ago, Fokus said:

 

ROTFL

 

 

Very funny.

Very, very funny.  You don't have to understand what any of it means.  Just quote the marketing buzz words du jour.  Oh, and know what sucks, very important to know what sucks.  

 

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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5 hours ago, gmgraves said:

 But, vinyl and analog tape, do have one advantage over digital. music can be recorded that is actually below the noise floor. In other words, the listener can still hear extremely low level content when that content is softer than the noise of the record/tape itself! Digital cannot do this.

 

As said before, digital can do so just fine.

 

Years ago I ran a net demo with a 4-bit digital channel. I used sines, without dither, with, and with noise shaping. Then, for the naysayers, again, but with music. That was convincing, except that some ueber-naysayers remarked that the music was rather quiet and slow (I took something from an artist I knew, avoiding too severe copyright issues). So I did it all again, with  a drum kit.

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21 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

At the introduction of CD I was running a fairly tricked out Linn LP12, which eventually evolved into a fully optimised system with all the PSs, arm, MC cartridge, phone amp with its own PS etc. 

 

Believing the hype of perfect sound forever I brought home one of the original Sony CDPs, but every time i listened to it I found I would grind my teeth and get a pain in my jaw, so it went. Then along came Meridian with their ‘like Vinyl’ CDP. Again, the same teeth grinding and jaw pain resulted. 

 

Eventually the NAIM CDS brought CD replay that I could actually listen to and I kept that unit for quite some time and built a sizeable CD collection. However I still preferred analog, which was noticably more airy, detailed and natural. 

 

I then tried a BAT VK-D5, a fully tubed CDP which for the first time replayed CDs with an analog-like warmth and musicality. Still not better than vinyl but better than most recognised CDPs like Wadia, Theta, Mark Levinson and dCS. 

 

Recently I sold my existing all-tube hifi and went dedicated digital and streaming. With fewer boxes I was able to put together both analog and digital front ends, dedicating roughly the same budget to each.  With long experience in servicing and adjusting an LP12 I decided to get something  with a superior engineering platform that could be set up by measurement instead of ‘look and feel’.

I eventually settled on a Michell Orbe with SME Series IV and Orftofon Cadenza Black MC, set up atop a Finite Element Pagoda Master Reference stand.  The complete unpacking and set-up took most of a relaxed day. The nice thing about this combination is that every single adjustment is defined and measurable so you know exactly when the system is optimally and exactly set up. 

Once set up I was able to play a selection of classical Decca and EMI recordings by some of the World’s foremost musicians and conductors.  I have to say, the system sounded awesome. Some records where clearly contaminated and needed a wash, but overall I was really pleased with the sound.  Then my digital front end arrived. I spent some weeks running in the components and optimising the network for the digital data stream. I learned a lot during this process. 

1. Everything makes a difference

2. A direct wire connection is not necessarily the best

3. One poorly selected power supply can rob the whole system of its magic

4. Once working really well, there’s a ton more information in a red book format file than most people (myself included) are aware of.

5. With resolution maximised and losses minimised a highly transparent and neutral system will reveal that what we’re hearing is 100% down to the skills of the recording production team. 

6. In a highly transparent and neutral system, 95% of the recordings (I listen to) sound good. In the 5% that don’t, one can clearly hear the production errors. 

7. Compared to the digital system, the analog system sounded ‘old’. It was fiddly, required far more operator interaction, was subject to a lot of contamination noise,  lacked the inky black silences, lacked the instant dynamic swings,  lacked transparent low level detail (too much noise),  lacked very low level timbre, lacked SOTA image focus and multi-layered acoustic resolution compared to the digital stream and generally sounded somewhat less accomplished. In isolation the analog system sounded great, but the digital front end simply took it to another level. 

In summary, I could find no justification on sonic grounds for playing music on vinyl, when a SOTA digital system is available. This conclusion was reached after playing hundreds of different tracks on both digital and on vinyl. 

I don’t have the shadow of a doubt that I could find the odd LP that would outperform the digital file equivalent but that would always be down to the condition of the LP and the production of LP and Digital versions. Over hundreds of tracks, my digital set-up clearly outperformed my analog front end...it delivers greater transparency, improved rhythmic drive and musical impetus and certainly greater listener involvement due to lower noise, greater dynamic contrasts, more low level timbral information and overall greater ‘believability’. 

Putting my money where my mouth is, I traded in the analog front end against an improved digital  server, which should be arriving soon.  In the meantime, anyone looking for a collection of some of the finest classical recordings of the analog era plus a few 180g re-issues?

 

 

Which streamer/DAC beat your turntable setup?

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3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

 

1. Everything makes a difference

2. A direct wire connection is not necessarily the best

3. One poorly selected power supply can rob the whole system of its magic

4. Once working really well, there’s a ton more information in a red book format file than most people (myself included) are aware of.

5. With resolution maximised and losses minimised a highly transparent and neutral system will reveal that what we’re hearing is 100% down to the skills of the recording production team. 

6. In a highly transparent and neutral system, 95% of the recordings (I listen to) sound good. In the 5% that don’t, one can clearly hear the production errors. 

7. Compared to the digital system, the analog system sounded ‘old’. It was fiddly, required far more operator interaction, was subject to a lot of contamination noise,  lacked the inky black silences, lacked the instant dynamic swings,  lacked transparent low level detail (too much noise),  lacked very low level timbre, lacked SOTA image focus and multi-layered acoustic resolution compared to the digital stream and generally sounded somewhat less accomplished. In isolation the analog system sounded great, but the digital front end simply took it to another level. 

In summary, I could find no justification on sonic grounds for playing music on vinyl, when a SOTA digital system is available. This conclusion was reached after playing hundreds of different tracks on both digital and on vinyl. 

I don’t have the shadow of a doubt that I could find the odd LP that would outperform the digital file equivalent but that would always be down to the condition of the LP and the production of LP and Digital versions. Over hundreds of tracks, my digital set-up clearly outperformed my analog front end...it delivers greater transparency, improved rhythmic drive and musical impetus and certainly greater listener involvement due to lower noise, greater dynamic contrasts, more low level timbral information and overall greater ‘believability’. 

 

You pretty much summed up why I prefer digital.  In my present setup, even well done CD sounds really good. Before this, I clearly preferred hi-res/DSD.  Now, not as much. Sometimes not at all. 

I do understand why people who like vinyl and tape like them - they do have a certain "ease" to the sound that is seductive, in a way. But when I compare well done digital - I almost always prefer the digital.

And yes, I understand others come to exactly the opposite conclusion. That's why it's a fun hobby. Invite me over to hear your vinyl setup that you love and I'm sure I'll enjoy it. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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6 hours ago, firedog said:

Listen to almost any recent pop/rock/hip-hop/ country  CD  or remaster intended for the mass market and I think you will find the loudness war is alive and well. 

 

Yes, loud, overcompressed albums and remasters of legacy are still being released, but on the metering and streaming side something is being done about it.

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6 hours ago, firedog said:

No, the loudness war  is only one factor.  There are also plenty of CDs without heavy loudness compression that don't sound great. Clearly mastering is crucial. Lots of factors go into making a good sounding CD. 

 

In order of importance, with (1) in my estimation being the most crucial:

 

1. Mastering

2. Artistic composition

3. Recording technique

4. Mixing

5. Acoustic treatment of room.

6. Studio interconnects.

7. ADC converters in studio and DAC in consumer playback.

 

Digital, or specifically the CD,  will just reproduce everything, from overprocessed Sh?t  to well produced music, better than will an analog source.  Catch my drift?  Production choices, as well as how well a song is written and composed, are more critical than the specific delivery format, as well as more important than USD$500 boutique interconnects.

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2 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Yes, loud, overcompressed albums and remasters of legacy are still being released, but on the metering and streaming side something is being done about it.

Yes, but several years ago when Apple started doing that for their streaming, we were told that their  volume leveling was going to change the game and the volume wars would end, i.e., the heavy volume compression would stop as there would no longer be an "advantage" to it.

 

Hasn't happened. The production still includes the heavy VC. If we want improved sound, the answer isn't some kind of volume leveling, but a dialing back of the volume wars for the masters being used as the basis of releases. 

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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I listen to my digital source, for sound quality and convenience, and use my analog rig to convert vinly to digital.  I have a Michell Orbe SE turntable that has been modified with two kits (armboard and main kit) from Gert Pedersen, 
http://www.pedersensgyro.dk/

 

and the TT is wall mounted and sits on a Ginko Cloud 11.  Considering the cost of analog gear these additions are not expensive and make a large difference.

 

I convert analog to DSD128 with a Tascam DA-3000 and software is Vinyl Studio.

Cleanup pops/ticks and EQ on some old pop lacking bass.

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22 minutes ago, Rexp said:

I believe he uses an Innuos into a Devialet, I heard both separatley and not been particularly impressed, maybe the combo is magic.

But other people - including some on this forum- love the Innuos and can't say enough about it. 

I've extensively auditioned one Devialet model (I think it was a single 400) and thought it sounded quite good. Tastes differ. As do setups and what else is involved in the audition, such as speakers...

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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35 minutes ago, firedog said:

Yes, but several years ago when Apple started doing that for their streaming, we were told that their  volume leveling was going to change the game and the volume wars would end, i.e., the heavy volume compression would stop as there would no longer be an "advantage" to it.

 

Hasn't happened. The production still includes the heavy VC. If we want improved sound, the answer isn't some kind of volume leveling, but a dialing back of the volume wars for the masters being used as the basis of releases. 

"VC"?

 

The metering I spoke of measures average levels, correlated to actual loudness.  The reason it has yet to make a significant dent in the loudness race is that these new meter plugins and standards are not *mandatory*.   It's still up to artists, their producers, and the engineers to fully adopt the new paradigm.

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5 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

"VC"?

 

 

Otherwise known as volume compression.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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