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Lies about vinyl vs digital


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If you don't mind ... I don't see what the "lies" are in your phrases. Example :

 

Is this the lie :

 

Quote

Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion

 

 

or is this the lie :

 

Quote

but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital?

 

?

 

And that of course, how you pose it. Because I don't see lies anywhere to begin with. But another example :

 

Quote

so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force?

 

That could be a lie, yes.

 

Maybe you can change your OP and put it forward a little better (especially for me - haha).

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2 hours ago, firedog said:

The digital recording will playback with all those "special", supposedly unique to vinyl qualities you say you prefer, and it's unlikely you will be able to consistently pick out the vinyl playback vs. the digital. If you can, it will be with extreme difficulty. 

 

You're referring to comparing the vinyl playback with the playback of the digital recording of it, right ?

(and that it is now indistinguishable)

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1 minute ago, firedog said:
8 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

You're referring to comparing the vinyl playback with the playback of the digital recording of it, right ?

(and that it is now indistinguishable)

Yes, exactly.

 

OK, I can confirm that (ADC Pacific Microsonics Model Two).

 

For those who like to know : Of the 2000 or so Hires Vinyl rips I have (mostly ripped by others), none of them is really listenable mostly because of the lack of dynamics.

So if we combine these two experiences, I can well say that everybody who listens happily to those same rips or the very LP's *and* is claiming the better sound and no loss in dynamics and what not, is not really on par.

To put it mildly.

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5 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:
10 minutes ago, firedog said:

Okay, now I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying your rips on the Pacific Microsonics ADC are equal to the LP (indistinguishable), but rips made by others on other equipment aren't, because they lack the dynamics of the LP? 

 

I think he meant because they were sourced from Vinyl they all sounded inferior in dynamics.

 

That.

So first I used my own recordings to test/check whether my music reproduction system could show differences between the LP itself and the rip of it (and used a PMII coincidentally) to next find/think/"know" that all LP sounds equally "lousy" because whatever random cartridge and TT used where-ever in the world *), it sounds the same (on the dynamics part, including the lack of highs).

 

*) the 2000 rips I am talking about come from everywhere.

 

In the end I base this on the proven fact that my system is sufficiently OK to show all the attributes "LP" as such puts forward and thus I listen to the LP's + rips of "everyone". Well, it ain't nothing much. :D

 

Let me add that one of the more difficult exhibits of the LP to put forward equally well, is the needle ticks. Don't try this with all the nice (upsampling) filters you find around because it will be washed out (that's how filters work). Not so in my case, using my own filtering blabla.

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Found another deficiency :

 

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

The Windows mixer must be bypassed for optimal SQ. Set your music playback software to use exclusive mode access to the sound card. If you can chose the device driver, you are looking for WASAPI, possibly Kernel mode, and if all else fails there's always ASIO. The only thing to bear in mind is that SPDIF / toslink WASAPI drivers may not let you pass 176/192 kHz streams, in which case you'll have to use ASIO if you want to play those. JRiver has a way to deal with that; you can set one zone with specific settings for playing back 96 kHz and less using WASAPI, and another zone to play back 176 kHz and higher using ASIO.

 

From a settings perspective, that's pretty much all you can do. Further SQ gains will require better hardware.

 

You don't know what you're dealing with ...

So you also can't control it.

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2 minutes ago, fas42 said:
8 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Turns out most people don't want wide dynamic range music. It's a great idea and a high-fidelity ideal, but the truth is that people don't want to keep raising and lowering the volume of their playback to keep from blasting the family and neighbors on crescendos or to adequately hear the triple pianissimos.

 

Interesting ... I tend to run a system on the maximum level it can comfortably handle

 

No. I have brought it forward more often : Supertramp's Crime of The Century in "original" CD fashion. This is unplayable for it's way too wide dynamics and it doesn't even use half of the digital space (so go figure). You can't play this without changing the volume (thus you can't play this at all).

Btw, the dynamics are also NOT forceful. They are only crazily steep.

 

Most of the CD's I own show better dynamics than their vinyl counterparts, but pick them (remasters are never among it). Most of the CD's I own are way more forceful which also is genuine (the "force" on vinyl is not that). Maybe this one is the most excessive on both at the same time (the balance of it is perfect) :

 

folder.thumb.jpg.be30fce94b1f07b93e0c8c3578f1d47b.jpg

 

Turtle Records generally are all the most dynamically recorded (without the necessity to touch the volume knob) and which technically *is* so, which can be noticed by my playback software because it trips on it (protection against static).

 

 

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14 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Turtle Records generally are all the most dynamically recorded (without the necessity to touch the volume knob)

 

In the end it is all worse (more difficult to judge);

Ever back I used a few tracks of this album to let people jump to the ceiling because of the sudden bursts (which are short, opposed to Crime of The century which gets louder and louder and then drops back to about zero level). Today this is not so any more. How come ?

Well, you make the playback less lean (in my case the DAC) and you tune the software to be less dynamic (this is XXHighEnd and its million settings). So now this Dean Peer album is as beautiful as you might expect from Vinyl. It also really shows all the characteristics (specially about the "forceful" parameter). And what changed on this CD ?

Nothing of course.

 

Moral : We can't even judge these aspects well, because we all have different systems and they are quite crucial.

And oh, I was informed from trusted source that GUTB's digital system is the worst. So he is not allowed to join the party.

Oh wait, it is his thread. 9_9

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1 minute ago, esldude said:

What?  I happened to have listened to this earlier this evening.  It sounded very nice, and I never touched volume once.

 

Then you must have listened not to this "original" version. From the top of my head : 15dB or so more dynamic headroom (used) and that at half of the space (so could have been 21dB).

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30 minutes ago, PeterSt said:
33 minutes ago, esldude said:

What?  I happened to have listened to this earlier this evening.  It sounded very nice, and I never touched volume once.

 

Then you must have listened not to this "original" version. From the top of my head : 15dB or so more dynamic headroom (used) and that at half of the space (so could have been 21dB).

 

I just looked : the difference between that orginal and the "best one" regarding this, is 13.5dB (hard to explain in my terms, but say this is the difference between a DR of 19 and 14 or so).

The "best one" still shows a 6dB or so more than what I'd call "high dynamic".

 

COS01.thumb.png.c5d72639f46f7f46cbfc4bc5cbb52e3c.png

 

This is the worst one. The dynamic headroom is here spread over the full digital space (the 32768). This is *not* the original I am referring to. That is this one :

 

COS02.thumb.png.7992db472585232dade5d2d0244c81ed.png

 

This is what I referred to as "half of the digital space" (which is not really so, but significantly less than max (the 27381).

 

COS03.thumb.png.114423c8a487491bc89d95e1d6208c10.png

 

This one is the best one for listening and not wanting to change the volume under way (it stil sounds poor).

Mind the SPL number in there.

 

Bonus (close eyes) :

 

COS04.thumb.png.6f9bbf0407242280bd23348a96239432.png

 

This one sounds the most normal (IIRC).

 

And FWIW : a 24/96 Vinyl rip :

 

COS05.thumb.png.2ee41df46872844cac6fea8a884bb812.png

 

The digital headroom has been (ADC) set nicely and this normalizes 7.5dB better than the worst digital one (first two in the list above). So this should be the real norm as it ever landed on LP. And I don't recall that the LP was unlistenable. But possibly my system wasn't that dynamic at my age of 15 or whatever it was.
Edit The figures for this one have been remapped to 16 bits (so comparison is possible).

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COS06.thumb.png.c6f8bc4685975c6f03cd3c1ee0ef4cc1.png

 

This one again. You can see that there's really not much difference and that this one is only 3dB less "dynamical" than the worst Crime of The Century. But here you can also see how "DR" as a phenomenon failes. Thus, difference between loud and soft is much larger on the COS album while both show say 50% of it (soft vs loud). Not so with the Dean Peer album, which is moderate level in general (but say at 25%) with regular burst to 100%. These burst (on an electric bass) are just that. Play it toggling, vs strike it hard. The bursts are terrifying (and very forceful) also because they come at an unexpected moment. Anyway, the SPL of this say equals that of COS, but in a harmless way (OK your speakers may burst if you tune it in too loud).

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, semente said:

I only have the "The Very Best of Supertramp" on CD.

Here's the Leq plot for "Rudy" - impressive, even if this is not the widest-range mastering of the track:

 

I have three versions of that. The track Rudy, which again shows -0dB on  the two versions I listed as the worst (OK, some like to call that the best), shows -10.5, -12.0 and -13.5 dB respectively. So if you think you have it impressive already, you can grab another 12dB (and go sit outside).

 

The album that I use for "average reference" shows -16.5 dB in this regard (this is AC/DC' Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap). Anything at a distance of 6dB of that, I depict as "usable" (thus also 6dB more compressed I regard usable). But not 16.5dB more dynamic, like the Supertramp example. Btw, I have no worse examples than this Supertramp that I know of.

 

Btw, the AC/DC I also have in a -15dB and a -9 dB version, so might you gonna try what this so-called reference would be ... doesn't work again (you could have the -9dB version).

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2 minutes ago, 4est said:

I cannot recall vinyl being pushed as specifically greener than digital.

 

I saw a few green ones, but most are black.

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5 hours ago, Rexp said:

If you cant tell a 16/44 needle drop from the original something is wrong somewhere.

 

You guys talk passed each other;

A needle drop is an ADC recording of vinyl. Thus, you play a Talk Talk vinyl album, record it (ADC) meanwhile, a digital file being the result (commonly named "needle drop").

 

If that file is played through the very same rig (only the source now being different - TT against software player & DAC), nobody would be able to distinguish the two.

 

The conclusion of that is : digital is so good that it can record ALL the aspects (nasty and good) of the vinyl playback. There is no single hint that it ever can be the other way around, but if there is, you are going to tell us HOW, now you grasped the situation. ;)

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Despite what Barrows is telling you ...

 

2 minutes ago, barrows said:

Record your own spoken voice - reading a news item, the Pledge To the Flag, digitally, then transfer it to CD and vinyl.  If you can hear any significant difference, then you sir have 'Golden ears' or the ears of God himself.

 

You clearly lack the experience yourself.

Of course we can now smoothly bridge to the subject of the quality of your system which apparently doesn't show the difference between 60dB SNR and 140dB SNR. Now this time don't come up with the dither show, but explain how I would not hear / perceive that difference. Apparently you can't tell the difference yourself. OK. Now explain how that is possible, Sir Trol.

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18 minutes ago, GUTB said:

So why do my records have better dynamic performance?

 

I listened to the MQA version of Ruby (Supertramp) which works well now that Roon supports core decoding (oversampled to DSD512 through HQPlayer as per usual).

 

Sure, suuure. So first you take the version of which I claim is the least dynamical of them all (you could read back on this) and next you use DSD which also takes out the real dynamical aspects (you can read back on that too) and then put forward such a "conclusion".

 

Well done.

Not.

 

PS: You just want to be right, right ?

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Just now, jabbr said:

And Supertramp? Really?

 

Um, it seems that you just dove into this thread. So nothing wrong with Supertramp for context (it was only mentioned a 2 dozen times :D).

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3 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Because the MASTERING of what went on that DSD reduced those original dynamics, nothing ELSE.

 

You have a reading comprehension problem now. Really.

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1 minute ago, The_K-Man said:
16 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

You have a reading comprehension problem now. Really.

 

You have a denial of the facts problem now. Really.

 

How would I do that ? (elaborate pls)

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