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Addons, i.e. regen, reclock, isolate - are they needed?


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8 minutes ago, 4est said:

Then why did you recommend optical?

I recommend it over usb, but personally i would go with network best of all....or better yet a media player without any external dac interface necessary.

 

I am still dreaming of the day for a quality media player with SDcard,ssd, enet, LPS, good clocks, analog out under $2K (smile).....give me an altair with sdcard and android support.

 

I would probably be content with the new teac NT505, but i think there will be something more to my liking worth waiting for.

 

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Glad the pissing match is over. Thanks.

 

I've tried Toslink and didn't find it an improvement in my experience. YMMV.

 

Actually, I should have stated that I don't have a problem, per se, with the sound I'm getting in general. I just find it a bit more forward or analytical that I like from my vinyl setup. But I would classify it as pretty good right now.

 

I'm just trying to decide "where" to go for the next level. Especially in the light of the age of my DAC.

Analog: Rega P8 > Ortofon Cadenza Black > Bob's Devices 20:1 SUT > EAR 834P Deluxe MM/MC tube phono stage

Digital: Shanling ET-3 CD Transport. Streaming via SoTM SMS200 Ultra Neo w/ SPS500 power supply > Chord Hugo TT2

Sound: PS Audio PowerPlant3 >  Naim Supernait3 > Harbeth P3ESR

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8 minutes ago, creativepart said:

Actually, I should have stated that I don't have a problem, per se, with the sound I'm getting in general. I just find it a bit more forward or analytical that I like from my vinyl setup. But I would classify it as pretty good right now.

 

I'm just trying to decide "where" to go for the next level. Especially in the light of the age of my DAC.

 

I recommend that you audition a Chord Mojo.  Huge bang for the buck with this DAC. I suspect it will provide you great insight into how good your Benchmark really is. 

Digital:  Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120

Amp & Speakers:  Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T

Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256

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On 7/3/2018 at 7:19 PM, creativepart said:

I listen to vinyl about 50% of the time and digital from my computer (iMac 27") 50% of the time. For something like 8 years I've used a Benchmark Dac1 USB for all my digital listening. Probably 10 years ago I took all my CDs and using iTunes made ALAC copies of them - 720 in all. I've stored the CDs in the attic and listen to them from the computer. I use Audirvana Pro for my software.

 

I like Tidal, especially Masters with MQA (don't start please). Recently, to try something new I bought a Meridian Explorer2 and then replaced that with the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Dac. I like the Pre Box better than the Exp2 but I'm not sure yet about it being as good or better than the Benchmark.

snip

 

In my experience the Regen/Jitterbug add-ons did absolutely nothing.  That was with either an Arcam SuperDAC FMJ D33 (comparable to your Benchmark I would think) and now with a Bryston BDA-2.  

 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those types of devices but would guess they have a greater chance of making an improvement with "budget" hardware that may not have all of the design elements and engineering that a more expensive unit should.

 

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My experience with a Chord 2Cute was that the Regen and an LPS did absolutely nothing for the sound.  I guess I did not believe the designers comments on another forum and just had to see for myself at great expense.  I have since sold the 2Cute and have been using an all in one Altair just to eliminate the boxes and cables and have been very happy but I seem to be going full circle and recently ordered a Qutest as I do like the separate DAC setup as it is very flexible.  Lessons learned so I will NOT be using anything other than what comes in the box!  I have learned to make concessions for convenience and flexibility in many ways and do not obsess over various things anymore, and it feels so much lighter now :)

RIG:  iFi Zen Stream - Benchmark DAC3 L - LA4  AHB2 | Paradigm Sig S6 Cables:  anything available

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42 minutes ago, SJK said:

 

In my experience the Regen/Jitterbug add-ons did absolutely nothing.  That was with either an Arcam SuperDAC FMJ D33 (comparable to your Benchmark I would think) and now with a Bryston BDA-2.  

 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those types of devices but would guess they have a greater chance of making an improvement with "budget" hardware that may not have all of the design elements and engineering that a more expensive unit should.

 

 

There is empirical data that shows they can improve poorly designed DAC's regardless of the cost. Engineers can design compromised hardware at either $200 or $20,000. 

 

At least that data is out there for people to make informed (or completely ignore it) decisions with. My advice is purchase a DAC that measures well, good linearity, good jitter suppression, good main's noise isolation, good channel balance...

 

The Topping DX7s at $500 and the RME ADI-2 at $999 represent best of class hardware and fidelity. 

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4 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

You mean there are some who don't have information and knowledge deficits?  There are some who have perfect knowledge and a perfect understanding of what's involved here?  

 

I'd rather be counted amongst those with the humility to acknowledge that I don't have it all figured out - instead of among those with the hubris to think their information is complete such that they can state with absolute certainty that USB add-ons can't improve the sound quality of a particular DAC.

 

I wonder what those with perfect knowledge do in their spare time?  I guess while I'm listening to music they must be creating new life on other planets using their spare mental capacity?       

 

pure mathematicians, pre-Godel

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3 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I like spdif also, but the only issue with it is lack of support for high resolution DSD.

 

Yeah so the problem with SPDIF and optical/toslink is the lack of support for high bitrate DSD (i.e. native DSD not DOP). Given the paucity of Ethernet, USB is the best common current option.

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5 hours ago, plissken said:

You may be confused. As USB standards have increased in throughput it looks like Benchmark is speaking to the part of their jitter suppression system which is being able to ASRC to higher and higher sampling rates. 

 

Back in the day it was 24/96, now we can do 32/768. 

 

For those of us that know what we are talking about, we know that the USB dongles have nothing to do with clock recovery. They simply are making attempts as isolation of the ground plane of the computer/source (i.e. the Moat every one talks about). It's all about AGND and DGND design (Henry Ott has some good technical write ups about this including the math for calculating the zip trace impedance values).  

 

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. It could be that the 'worst sounding' part of it has nothing to do with it's inputs. 

 

I believe it was on the DAC1 where Benchmark midwifed a 100' digital line just flooded with errors and timing issues. But they still showed the measured output of their DAC unaffected and showed 100% reconstruction of the input signal. 

 

That's what I mean by they designed proper inputs that are robust to dealing with downstream issues.

 

I look forward to others who up-vote your post so I also know who else suffers from an information and knowledge deficit 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, 4est said:

Those of us that know...? How pathetically pompous of you. I hope that works on some kids at least, and pray your partner never learns how long an inch really is.

 

About all that test really proves is that it sounds just as shitty with 100' as it does 3'. But it was a lie anyway. It locked on though, I have to give them that.  We (meaning myself and a few others) could readily hear the difference in sources, inputs and input cabling although they all did have that signature white-ish grey-ness to them. Ultralock should have been called Ultrabrite/Ultrawhite or something...

 

Please watch your choice of words guys. Neither of you are helping anyone with your back and forth. 

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3 hours ago, creativepart said:

Glad the pissing match is over. Thanks.

 

I've tried Toslink and didn't find it an improvement in my experience. YMMV.

 

Actually, I should have stated that I don't have a problem, per se, with the sound I'm getting in general. I just find it a bit more forward or analytical that I like from my vinyl setup. But I would classify it as pretty good right now.

 

I'm just trying to decide "where" to go for the next level. Especially in the light of the age of my DAC.

 

Thanks for your input...i am just curious as to what toslink solution you compared to what USB solution?  I have almost always found for pc based usb solution (esp without some sort of noise isolation), that toslink will almost always sound noticeably better.....but again, maybe you had either a really good usb solution or a really bad toslink solution.

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For USB I used a 12' USB cable that was better than run of the mill. Nothing special really.

 

For Toslink I used a GLASS cable about 3' long.

 

Toslink wasn't bad - it just wasn't better and didn't support as many features. So, it wasn't an improvement.

 

The computer is a mid-2011 iMac 27" with one of those silly mini-plug/toslink ports that uses a plastic adapter.

 

Looking at my computer specs I don't see it now - and it's been a while - but my memory was that Toslink only supported 96k resolution on my iMac.

 

As a side note, I've read a number of times that jitter is more of an issue with Toslink.

 

Regardless, it didn't do anything great on my system.

Analog: Rega P8 > Ortofon Cadenza Black > Bob's Devices 20:1 SUT > EAR 834P Deluxe MM/MC tube phono stage

Digital: Shanling ET-3 CD Transport. Streaming via SoTM SMS200 Ultra Neo w/ SPS500 power supply > Chord Hugo TT2

Sound: PS Audio PowerPlant3 >  Naim Supernait3 > Harbeth P3ESR

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1 hour ago, creativepart said:

Looking at my computer specs I don't see it now - and it's been a while - but my memory was that Toslink only supported 96k resolution on my iMac.

TOSLink as a spec supports 24/96 and it's simply a signalling rate limit. I've seen implementations that did 24/192 but those aren't official cannon. 

 

Quote

 

As a side note, I've read a number of times that jitter is more of an issue with Toslink.

 

Regardless, it didn't do anything great on my system.

 

Jitter is more of an issue because it's the sending side (far end of things) that also is the clock source. Where as USB sends out data in packets, and they aren't in real time, the receiver just scoops together all that data, lines it up, applies it's own clock and streams it all out in correct time. 

 

What you get with DAC's where engineers don't know what they are doing is proper separation of Analog and Digital Grounds. Some USB isolation devices even have the ability to defeat the proper measures that DAC designers have taken and inject noise. 

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3 hours ago, photonman said:

My experience with a Chord 2Cute was that the Regen and an LPS did absolutely nothing for the sound.  I guess I did not believe the designers comments on another forum and just had to see for myself at great expense.  I have since sold the 2Cute and have been using an all in one Altair just to eliminate the boxes and cables and have been very happy but I seem to be going full circle and recently ordered a Qutest as I do like the separate DAC setup as it is very flexible.  Lessons learned so I will NOT be using anything other than what comes in the box!  I have learned to make concessions for convenience and flexibility in many ways and do not obsess over various things anymore, and it feels so much lighter now :)

since i have considered both altair and qutest, i am curious how you would compare the 2 and what do you use as a source to the qutest?

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1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

since i have considered both altair and qutest, i am curious how you would compare the 2 and what do you use as a source to the qutest?

I don't have the Qutest yet and my Altair is back at Auralic USA for warranty work (many of us were hit with Wifi module problems) but my plan is to use the Altair as the source to the Qutest to compare it against the onboard Auralic DAC.  I always look back to when I had my computer feeding the 2Cute as the sound I liked.  The Altair is pretty good  but if not hit with the Wifi issues, I would have never looked back to Chord but I am now.

 

I have come to the conclusion that a computer is a pretty convenient source if fed to a decent DAC so that will be my latest experiment with the Qutest.  But I love the all-in-oneness of the Altair which is a pretty slick package and it is one of the few streamers out there with dual band AC Wifi which was important to me as the 2.4 GHz network is crowded and was noisier in my system than the 5 GHz and the AC protocol comes in handy for streaming high resolution.  Many streamers out there are only b/g/n and only do the 2.4 GHz network.  But if you have a modern notebook computer, they should all come with AC Wifi cards (AC WAP required obviously) so that is another reason I am thinking of going back to PC vs. Streamer.

 

My temp system is a Modi Multibit fed with my Lenovo X1 and going straight to the Pass XA30.8 and it is decent.  But when my wifi issues started with the Altair, I used the Lenovo to feed the Altair and used it as a dac/preamp and I think that setup sounded better than with the Modi MB.

RIG:  iFi Zen Stream - Benchmark DAC3 L - LA4  AHB2 | Paradigm Sig S6 Cables:  anything available

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4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Please watch your choice of words guys. Neither of you are helping anyone with your back and forth. 

 

Honestly I would rather let Benchmark ad copy lead this particular discussion. And this is for Gen1 hardware:

 

Quote

 

JITTER-IMMUNE ULTRALOCK™ CLOCK SYSTEM

Benchmark's proprietary UltraLock clock system achieves an unprecedented immunity to jitter. Many modern (and expensive) converters suffer from significant jitter-induced distortion, generating non-musical sideband tones and digital distortion. Benchmark's highly-regarded UltraLock™ clock system ensures that jitter is never a problem, even under extreme conditions.

 

Even in the presence of extremely high input jitter, no jitter-induced artifacts can be detected on the outputs of the DAC1 HDR (using state-of-the-art testing equipment by Audio Precision). UltraLock™ will block more then 12.5 UI of jitter (@ 1 kHz). The UltraLock™ clock system easily outperforms even the best-designed two-stage PLL designs.

The bottom line is this: Benchmark converters will consistently and faithfully deliver truthful audio without jitter-induced artifacts, no matter what variables are present.

ADVANCEDUSB™ AUDIO TECHNOLOGY

The USB interface of the DAC1 PRE operates with Benchmark's unique AdvancedUSB™ technology. Unlike many USB-equipped D/A converters, Benchmark's AdvancedUSB™ technology supports 24-bit audio at sample rates up to 96 kHz without the installation of any drivers or other special software. Benchmark's UltraLock™ clock system isolates the converter from the high levels of jitter that are found on USB interfaces. The DAC1 PRE achieves transparent, audiophile-quality playback through a true plug-and-play solution.

 

Audio streamed via USB is subject to significant amounts of jitter. The AdvancedUSB™ interface utilizes the UltraLock™ clock system. Consequently, the performance of the USB input is equal to the performance of the other inputs, regardless of the jitter present.

 

The DAC1 PRE is natively compatible with most Windows, Mac, Linux, and Android operating systems. As a native device, there are no drivers to install or configure.

 

 

 

 

And it's exactly as I said: Gen2 and Gen3  support higher sample rate inputs as a start. 

 

I'll stand by my position that some members here have simply exceeded their technical underpinnings in this regard. Lord know's I've exceeded mine here only to be corrected. The difference being I'm willing to admit such and learn. 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, SJK said:

 

In my experience the Regen/Jitterbug add-ons did absolutely nothing.  That was with either an Arcam SuperDAC FMJ D33 (comparable to your Benchmark I would think) and now with a Bryston BDA-2.  

 

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those types of devices but would guess they have a greater chance of making an improvement with "budget" hardware that may not have all of the design elements and engineering that a more expensive unit should.

 

 

I don't think it necessarily relates to cost of hardware rather specific setup/config etc.

 

The absolute very best situation where I've had improvement with Regen (and I also have Intona) was the direct USB output of my workstation PC. High powered i7 with GTX 1080 GPU, watercooled etc. Spewed noise like crazy.

 

Ultimately I switched to a remote network access device, and I've used a bunch, either Atom/Celeron, or ARM -- all super low powered, also isolated either via fiberoptic ethernet or wifi. The USB coming out of these devices doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

I also have the upgraded Phasure NOS1a/G3 DAC with its own USB isolation ... so no need for an external isolator.

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2 hours ago, photonman said:

Many streamers out there are only b/g/n and only do the 2.4 GHz network.  But if you have a modern notebook computer, they should all come with AC Wifi cards (AC WAP required obviously) so that is another reason I am thinking of going back to PC vs. Streamer.

 

The Raspberry Pi 3 B+ has 802.11ac! $35 ? Runs Roon, HQPlayer NAA and DLNA ....

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1 hour ago, jabbr said:

 

The Raspberry Pi 3 B+ has 802.11ac! $35 ? Runs Roon, HQPlayer NAA and DLNA ....

Maybe the Pi 3 will run those WUI's better than the 2 did with its better cpu. I was considering this too if all else fails but I can totally appreciate the power of a full bore PC/Mac.  When I streamed with the Pi 2 I hated the white ocean noise in my speakers so maybe that was due to the wifi and like you said the newer one has much better wifi specs now.

RIG:  iFi Zen Stream - Benchmark DAC3 L - LA4  AHB2 | Paradigm Sig S6 Cables:  anything available

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4 minutes ago, photonman said:

Maybe the Pi 3 will run those WUI's better than the 2 did with its better cpu. I was considering this too if all else fails but I can totally appreciate the power of a full bore PC/Mac.  When I streamed with the Pi 2 I hated the white ocean noise in my speakers so maybe that was due to the wifi and like you said the newer one has much better wifi specs now.

 

Hmmm... I'm not getting any "white ocean noise" through my headphones, and I test for background noise level by turning the volume up. The recording baseline usually predominates.

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On 7/3/2018 at 5:00 PM, plissken said:

Benchmarks engineering pedigree is well earned and I'm sure that their inputs are properly engineered and won't be improved upon by a USB dongle.

 

And yet here is a blind test in a recording studio with the original USB REGEN and the Benchmark DAC2 HGC:

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=5155

 

And we are way beyond that now...9_9

 

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11 hours ago, photonman said:

My experience with a Chord 2Cute was that the Regen and an LPS did absolutely nothing for the sound.  I guess I did not believe the designers comments on another forum and just had to see for myself at great expense.  I have since sold the 2Cute and have been using an all in one Altair just to eliminate the boxes and cables and have been very happy but I seem to be going full circle and recently ordered a Qutest as I do like the separate DAC setup as it is very flexible.  Lessons learned so I will NOT be using anything other than what comes in the box!  I have learned to make concessions for convenience and flexibility in many ways and do not obsess over various things anymore, and it feels so much lighter now :)

I'm surprised you found that. I have a 2Qute and I've found that using USB 'addons' on the input signal has improved the sound of the DAC.

 

I use a Raspberry Pi 3 powered by an iFi Nano iUSB3.0 via an AudioQuest Forest cable for just the power. The Pi runs Moode Linux as a music server. It has an AudioQuest Jitterbug in one port, and an iFi iSilencer in the other port connected to a Chord C-USB cable which goes to the iFi Nano iUSB. I have a Nordost Heimdal 2 USB cable between the iFi Nano iUSB and the 2Qute. The 2Qute is powered by a MCRU linear PSU. I am really pleased with the sound of the 2Qute with that setup, but would love to hear the new Qutest

System (i): Stack Audio Link > 2Qute+MCRU psu; Gyrodec/SME V/Hana SL/EAT E-Glo Petit/Magnum Dynalab FT101A) > PrimaLuna Evo 100 amp > Klipsch RP-600M/REL T5x subs

System (ii): Allo USB Signature > Bel Canto uLink+AQVOX psu > Chord Hugo > APPJ EL34 > Tandy LX5/REL Tzero v3 subs

System (iii) KEF LS50W/KEF R400b subs

 

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