Addons, i.e. regen, reclock, isolate - are they needed?

[jabbr]

Heres the problem: everyone has different tastes, difference setup preferences, and hears different things.

 

Is there a rational way to determine whether *any* USB reclockers do anything to the sound coming out of any DAC?

We all have our own conflicting personal experiences. There is no consensus.

It does seem logical to "clean up" digital inputs. Many people swear by improvements.

 

How could we rationally answer whether USB reclockers are needed and when?

 

@mansr you've been recently working on USB. Have you measured the output of any DAC that is demonstrably improved by a USB device? 

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, jabbr said:

@mansr you've been recently working on USB. Have you measured the output of any DAC that is demonstrably improved by a USB device?

I have observed improvements in specific situations. I have also seen things get worse.

[jabbr]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

I have observed improvements in specific situations. I have also seen things get worse.

What specific situations have you seen improvements?

[kennyb123]

18 hours ago, plissken said:

Benchmarks engineering pedigree is well earned and I'm sure that their inputs are properly engineered and won't be improved upon by a USB dongle.

 

 

Properly engineered, eh?  

 

Benchmark themselves believed the DAC1’s USB input needed to be improved:

 

”The DAC2  delivers outstanding musical detail and precise stereo imaging. It employs an advanced high-headroom digital filter design, and a new high-sample-rate Asynchronous USB Audio interface. All inputs are fully isolated from interface jitter by Benchmark's new UltraLock2™ jitter attenuation system.”

 

And again improvements in the DAC3:

 

“All inputs are fully isolated from interface jitter by Benchmark's new UltraLock3™ jitter attenuation system.”

 

And very likely further input improvements in their next DAC.  

[plissken]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Properly engineered, eh?  

 

Benchmark themselves believed the DAC1’s USB input needed to be improved:

 

”The DAC2  delivers outstanding musical detail and precise stereo imaging. It employs an advanced high-headroom digital filter design, and a new high-sample-rate Asynchronous USB Audio interface. All inputs are fully isolated from interface jitter by Benchmark's new UltraLock2™ jitter attenuation system.”

 

And again improvements in the DAC3:

 

“All inputs are fully isolated from interface jitter by Benchmark's new UltraLock3™ jitter attenuation system.”

 

And very likely further input improvements in their next DAC.  

 

Even good, initial first designs, get refined over the years. 

 

The point being is that if even their GEN1 USB (2005) input does a better job than current USB dongles, then for  Benchmark they matter naught. 

 

Of course I would only be suggesting the current Gen3 hardware. They should also look at the RME ADI-2 for 1/2 the cost. 

 

[Ralf11]

6 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Lean and analytical is usually the result of a frequency response imbalance.  Sometimes it's caused by impedance mismatch between DAC/preamp or preamp and amp. Rarely it's something that can be fixed by USB addons.

 

Try to measure and DSP your system, you'll find this much more enlightening and satisfying than deploying various addons with unknown and unproven properties. 

 

 

REW is free and a mic is $90

 

IIRC, Uptone has a return policy

 

I suspect the mix of response you are seeing is the result of improvements in DAC interface designs and cost...

[PeterG]

Another perspective--I'm not so sure the right question is USB add-ons vs. DAC upgrade.  Maybe a better question is USB add ons vs. source upgrade?  If you think you might replace your Mac soon, or have a good way to repurpose it, now might be the time.  I went several years with a Mac Mini and USB add-ons, then upgraded to a Naim Uniti Core with SPDIF.  I wish I had switched earlier.  Aurender is worth a look too.

[look&listen]

5 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

”The DAC2,

All inputs are fully isolated from interface jitter by Benchmark's new UltraLock2™ jitter attenuation system.”

UltraLock2™ is 211khz ASRC for DAC2 series (think DAC3 also 211khz). UltraLock™ was 111khz ASRC for DAC1 series. BM make marketing speak confusing & distracting even in products Instruction Manuals. Never once see industry term "ASRC" in any BM DAC manual I read.

 

5 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

“All inputs are fully isolated from interface jitter by Benchmark's new UltraLock3™ jitter attenuation system.”

Both statements say All dac inputs use ASRC, but I see official page on BM site by John Siau say no UltraLock2/ASRC on USB input. So BM marketspeak, even in official documents not trustworthy ?

 

5 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

Properly engineered, eh? 

Is John Siau Marketing Engineer, like Amar Bose ? ?

 

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Even good, initial first designs, get refined over the years. 

 

The point being is that if even their GEN1 USB (2005) input does a better job than current USB dongles, then for  Benchmark they matter naught. . 

 

 

You said it was “properly designed” but now you acknowledge that further refinement can be of further benefit.  And yet you won’t allow that a USB add on can help?  I’m shocked, shocked that you would place ideology ahead of common sense.  LOL

 

I consider the Benchmark DAC 1 to have been the worst sounding piece of gear I’ve had in house.  That DAC got me to let my subscription to Stereophile lapse, as JA awarded it as Class A+.  I’m pretty sure that was the last review of his that I’ve read. Properly designed my a**.

[plissken]

14 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

You said it was “properly designed” but now you acknowledge that further refinement can be of further benefit.  And yet you won’t allow that a USB add on can help?  I’m shocked, shocked that you would place ideology ahead of common sense.  LOL

You may be confused. As USB standards have increased in throughput it looks like Benchmark is speaking to the part of their jitter suppression system which is being able to ASRC to higher and higher sampling rates. 

 

Back in the day it was 24/96, now we can do 32/768. 

 

For those of us that know what we are talking about, we know that the USB dongles have nothing to do with clock recovery. They simply are making attempts as isolation of the ground plane of the computer/source (i.e. the Moat every one talks about). It's all about AGND and DGND design (Henry Ott has some good technical write ups about this including the math for calculating the zip trace impedance values).  

14 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

I consider the Benchmark DAC 1 to have been the worst sounding piece of gear I’ve had in house

 

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. It could be that the 'worst sounding' part of it has nothing to do with it's inputs. 

 

I believe it was on the DAC1 where Benchmark midwifed a 100' digital line just flooded with errors and timing issues. But they still showed the measured output of their DAC unaffected and showed 100% reconstruction of the input signal. 

 

That's what I mean by they designed proper inputs that are robust to dealing with downstream issues.

 

I look forward to others who up-vote your post so I also know who else suffers from an information and knowledge deficit 

 

 

[4est]

42 minutes ago, plissken said:

You may be confused. As USB standards have increased in throughput it looks like Benchmark is speaking to the part of their jitter suppression system which is being able to ASRC to higher and higher sampling rates. 

 

Back in the day it was 24/96, now we can do 32/768. 

 

For those of us that know what we are talking about, we know that the USB dongles have nothing to do with clock recovery. They simply are making attempts as isolation of the ground plane of the computer/source (i.e. the Moat every one talks about). It's all about AGND and DGND design (Henry Ott has some good technical write ups about this including the math for calculating the zip trace impedance values).  

 

Everyone is welcome to their opinion. It could be that the 'worst sounding' part of it has nothing to do with it's inputs. 

 

I believe it was on the DAC1 where Benchmark midwifed a 100' digital line just flooded with errors and timing issues. But they still showed the measured output of their DAC unaffected and showed 100% reconstruction of the input signal. 

 

That's what I mean by they designed proper inputs that are robust to dealing with downstream issues.

 

I look forward to others who up-vote your post so I also know who else suffers from an information and knowledge deficit 

 

 

Those of us that know...? How pathetically pompous of you. I hope that works on some kids at least, and pray your partner never learns how long an inch really is.

 

About all that test really proves is that it sounds just as shitty with 100' as it does 3'. But it was a lie anyway. It locked on though, I have to give them that.  We (meaning myself and a few others) could readily hear the difference in sources, inputs and input cabling although they all did have that signature white-ish grey-ness to them. Ultralock should have been called Ultrabrite/Ultrawhite or something...

[kennyb123]

41 minutes ago, plissken said:

I look forward to others who up-vote your post so I also know who else suffers from an information and knowledge deficit 

 

 

 

You mean there are some who don't have information and knowledge deficits?  There are some who have perfect knowledge and a perfect understanding of what's involved here?  

 

I'd rather be counted amongst those with the humility to acknowledge that I don't have it all figured out - instead of among those with the hubris to think their information is complete such that they can state with absolute certainty that USB add-ons can't improve the sound quality of a particular DAC.

 

I wonder what those with perfect knowledge do in their spare time?  I guess while I'm listening to music they must be creating new life on other planets using their spare mental capacity?       

[mansr]

1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:

I wonder what those with perfect knowledge do in their spare time?

Ridicule lesser life forms on internet forums, obviously.

[kennyb123]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

Ridicule lesser life forms on internet forums, obviously.

 

Of course!  Grandiosity only provides a thrill when others are ridiculed.  

[4est]

2 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

You mean there are some who don't have information and knowledge deficits?  There are some who have perfect knowledge and a perfect understanding of what's involved here?  

 

I'd rather be counted amongst those with the humility to acknowledge that I don't have it all figured out - instead of among those with the hubris to think their information is complete such that they can state with absolute certainty that USB add-ons can't improve the sound quality of a particular DAC.

 

I wonder what those with perfect knowledge do in their spare time?  I guess while I'm listening to music they must be creating new life on other planets using their spare mental capacity?       

LOL No, they come here to extol their virtues...

[plissken]

24 minutes ago, 4est said:

Those of us that know...? How pathetically pompous of you. I hope that works on some kids at least, and pray your partner never learns how long an inch really is.

 

About all that test really proves is that it sounds just as shitty with 100' as it does 3'. But it was a lie anyway. It locked on though, I have to give them that.  We (meaning myself and a few others) could readily hear the difference in sources, inputs and input cabling although they all did have that signature white-ish grey-ness to them. Ultralock should have been called Ultrabrite/Ultrawhite or something...

 

Anyone that reads our back and forth, that has any technical understanding, knows you've exceeded yours. 

[davide256]

On 7/3/2018 at 7:19 PM, creativepart said:

I listen to vinyl about 50% of the time and digital from my computer (iMac 27") 50% of the time. For something like 8 years I've used a Benchmark Dac1 USB for all my digital listening. Probably 10 years ago I took all my CDs and using iTunes made ALAC copies of them - 720 in all. I've stored the CDs in the attic and listen to them from the computer. I use Audirvana Pro for my software.

 

I like Tidal, especially Masters with MQA (don't start please). Recently, to try something new I bought a Meridian Explorer2 and then replaced that with the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Dac. I like the Pre Box better than the Exp2 but I'm not sure yet about it being as good or better than the Benchmark.

 

So, I'm reading up on everything and contemplating a new Dac to be my main digital source. But confusing the situation I see LOTs of folks and lots of reviewers say how necessary it is to get one or two or even three addons to improve the USB signal from the computer. Then I see measurements and reports and reviews saying just the opposite. And, it's true that I've seen my share of addons that are worthless in my 50+ years of audio experience ( I built my first stereo system in 1962, literally, built it from Olsen Electronics parts).

 

Before going for a whole new dac I was thinking of one of the addons - like iFi Micro or similar. Or maybe go with the whole SoTM 200 kind of network device. Are these addons a must to consider before even thinking of a new dac... or is it just a fad if you've got a good dac in the first place?

 

PS. I'm not sure if I'd ever get rid of the Benchmark. It seems like one of those statement pieces you hang on to for a long time. But I may add another ~$2000 dac. Sometimes I wish I still had my Ack! Dac!. Anyway, I'm digressing.

 

DAC's are strange beasts... they sound different but when well made  your money is better spent improving what feeds the DAC. Given  the rapid improvement in USB tech over the last 5 years, a Schiit Eitr DDC at $179 sounds like "no brainer" for least cost to improve the Benchmark, assuming you have a quality coax cable.

[4est]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

Anyone that reads our back and forth, that has any technical understanding, knows you've exceeded yours. 

And you have continually over stated yours...

[kennyb123]

18 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Anyone that reads our back and forth, that has any technical understanding, knows you've exceeded yours. 

 

(deleted)

[plissken]

1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:

 

I avoid technical and focus on the subjective experience.  Unlike you, I acknowledge that I don't have a complete understanding of the technical.  But I do know enough to see that you have a very simplistic understanding. 

 

What I understand is that you don't understand the difference between AGND/DGND solutions and Bench Marks clocking schema. 

[kennyb123]

7 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

What I understand is that you don't understand the difference between AGND/DGND solutions and Bench Marks clocking schema. 

 

You're right.  I could care less about the red herrings you throw out to avoid having to acknowledge the flaws in your logic and reasoning.  You always introduce new information when busted.  That's exactly what you're doing in the text I quoted.  

 

Last I'll say.  I apologize to everyone on this thread for my contribution to making this thread unproductive.  I deleted my comments above, but Plissken got there before it took.

[beerandmusic]

On 7/3/2018 at 4:19 PM, creativepart said:

I listen to vinyl about 50% of the time and digital from my computer (iMac 27") 50% of the time. For something like 8 years I've used a Benchmark Dac1 USB for all my digital listening. Probably 10 years ago I took all my CDs and using iTunes made ALAC copies of them - 720 in all. I've stored the CDs in the attic and listen to them from the computer. I use Audirvana Pro for my software.

 

I like Tidal, especially Masters with MQA (don't start please). Recently, to try something new I bought a Meridian Explorer2 and then replaced that with the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Dac. I like the Pre Box better than the Exp2 but I'm not sure yet about it being as good or better than the Benchmark.

 

So, I'm reading up on everything and contemplating a new Dac to be my main digital source. But confusing the situation I see LOTs of folks and lots of reviewers say how necessary it is to get one or two or even three addons to improve the USB signal from the computer. Then I see measurements and reports and reviews saying just the opposite. And, it's true that I've seen my share of addons that are worthless in my 50+ years of audio experience ( I built my first stereo system in 1962, literally, built it from Olsen Electronics parts).

 

Before going for a whole new dac I was thinking of one of the addons - like iFi Micro or similar. Or maybe go with the whole SoTM 200 kind of network device. Are these addons a must to consider before even thinking of a new dac... or is it just a fad if you've got a good dac in the first place?

 

PS. I'm not sure if I'd ever get rid of the Benchmark. It seems like one of those statement pieces you hang on to for a long time. But I may add another ~$2000 dac. Sometimes I wish I still had my Ack! Dac!. Anyway, I'm digressing.

 

eliminate the controversy about usb toys and buy a dac that has input other than usb interface (e.g. network or optical).  Personally i believe that usb toys work for dacs that don't have usb noise isolation and aren't designed well, mainly because of noise from PC.  But i find that both enet and optical sound superior, so why even mess with usb or usb toys.

[4est]

12 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

You're right.  I could care less about the red herrings you throw out to avoid having to acknowledge the flaws in your logic and reasoning.  You always introduce new information when busted.  That's exactly what you're doing in the text I quoted.  

 

Last I'll say.  I apologize to everyone on this thread for my contribution to making this thread unproductive.  I deleted my comments above, but Plissken got there before it took.

Smart of you. I apologize as well. Plissken is a self important bully, and it was silly for me to engage him. I should have learned my lesson by now...

[beerandmusic]

17 hours ago, PeterG said:

Another perspective--I'm not so sure the right question is USB add-ons vs. DAC upgrade.  Maybe a better question is USB add ons vs. source upgrade?  If you think you might replace your Mac soon, or have a good way to repurpose it, now might be the time.  I went several years with a Mac Mini and USB add-ons, then upgraded to a Naim Uniti Core with SPDIF.  I wish I had switched earlier.  Aurender is worth a look too.

I like spdif also, but the only issue with it is lack of support for high resolution DSD.

I personally would lean toward a future generation media player with analog out and eliminate a dac interface altogether.  Lumin D2, Altair are 2 such current animals.  The altair has low phase noise clocks, lps, and gets good reviews....only caveat is "apple" support.  The Lumin D2 gets good reviews but no option to upgrade to LPS....but i foresee many more similar products in the future.

[4est]

4 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

... lack of support for high resolution DSD.

Then why did you recommend optical?