USB improvement gadgets - a survey

[elcorso]

17 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Now what if AmirM disappears .... 

 

There are audiophiles sicarios (hitman ?), or, sicarios audiophile ?

 

In today's specialized world you never know ... ?

 

Best,

 

Roch 

[trappy]

I used the Uptone Amber and the Curious USB, both together and separately. As well as the Jitterbug. There were changes, but nothing unambiguously good. The Intona (industrial) on the other hand, was was like removing a whole layer of muck I didn’t even know was there. And so far (I’ve had it for about 3 months) I hear no penalty. Can’t imagine going back. I would be interested to hear the curious cable on one side or another of it.

[semente]

1 hour ago, crenca said:

 

When you said:

 

"this unit is on a kind loan from a forum member....For this review I compared the Intona to Uptone Regen and TotalDAC D1."

 

It was not clear rather you were quoting Amirm's review or talking in the first person (i.e. you are Amirm).

 

I was looking for objective testing of some of these gadgets and I came across the ASR/amirm measurements; I had never visited the ASR before, didn't even know it existed...

I also said this at the start of the topic:

On 7/1/2018 at 11:28 AM, semente said:

I understand that there is a lot of speculation about this, that little if any measurements have been provided supporting the effects of these gadgets and tweaks but still I think it would be interesting to know how many people believe that they have improved performance by adding one or more of these gadgets.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, elcorso said:

Are you Henry David Thoreau descendent?

 

"Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify"  HDT

"Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein (allegedly)

[adamdea]

The poll doesn’t seem to have a “none of the above” option, let alone an “of course not- what do you take me for?” box

[elcorso]

12 minutes ago, adamdea said:

The poll doesn’t seem to have a “none of the above” option, let alone an “of course not- what do you take me for?” box

 

This poll is for the weird audiophile 

 

Roch

[Nordkapp]

I use an W4S Recovery following a 15' run of USB from my PC. In this situation I found it worthwhile.

[speavler]

Usb/spdif converter provided the results I was looking for, though I still have a regenerator and reclocker in the path

[semente]

8 hours ago, adamdea said:

The poll doesn’t seem to have a “none of the above” option, let alone an “of course not- what do you take me for?” box

The poll is for users and their preferences in regards to the available gizmos, which is why I didn't add a "none of the above" option, but thanks for your participation.

I am convinced that if we were to sample a wider than CA pool then the large majority would be of non-users.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, semente said:

The poll is for users and their preferences in regards to the available gizmos, which is why I didn't add a "none of the above" option, but thanks for your participation.

Where's the "I make my own gizmos" option?

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

I use an W4S Recovery following a 15' run of USB from my PC. In this situation I found it worthwhile.

 

 I have found that a 3M long USB cable markedly degraded the SQ of Audio files saved to a USB memory stick, so I  am not surprised that you found the W4S recovery worthwhile .

[semente]

39 minutes ago, mansr said:

Where's the "I make my own gizmos" option?

 

Well, I think it could just about fit into the last category/option but I'll add one for you. ?

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, semente said:

I am convinced that if we were to sample a wider than CA pool then the large majority would be of non-users.

 

Not so sure of that—considering that between original USB REGEN and ISO REGEN UpTone has about 6,000 pieces in the field. Add in our competitors worldwide and the numbers are not small.

[mansr]

1 minute ago, Superdad said:

Not so sure of that—considering that between original USB REGEN and ISO REGEN UpTone has about 6,000 pieces in the field. Add in our competitors worldwide and the numbers are not small.

If you look at all of home/personal audio sales, that's hardly even measurable.

[davide256]

22 minutes ago, mansr said:

If you look at all of home/personal audio sales, that's hardly even measurable.

 That comment shows lack of  personal experience with innovation or market segmentation...  many ideas languish for years as niche products before gaining mass market acceptance. In about 2-3 years we should know, which if patents are involved could make the owners very rich. Most new product offers I've been involved with lose money the first year and are considered successful if they show a profit after 3 years. What matters is the growth trajectory of sales... unless your Apple, most successful offers have a "hockey stick" sales trajectory on innovative offers where the first few years are lean while the market figures you out.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, davide256 said:

many ideas languish for years as niche products before gaining mass market acceptance.

6000 units sold is still a drop in the ocean today. Semente is right in saying that most people do not use any of these devices. Of course, most people don't have any USB based audio devices in the first place. The interesting metric here is what fraction of those who use USB for audio have any improvement widgets. I don't have any figures, but I think it's safe to say it's still a minority. As for the future, there are several ways things might turn out. One is that DAC manufacturers start incorporating these ideas directly, which would make external boxes largely obsolete.

[davide256]

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

6000 units sold is still a drop in the ocean today. Semente is right in saying that most people do not use any of these devices. Of course, most people don't have any USB based audio devices in the first place. The interesting metric here is what fraction of those who use USB for audio have any improvement widgets. I don't have any figures, but I think it's safe to say it's still a minority. As for the future, there are several ways things might turn out. One is that DAC manufacturers start incorporating these ideas directly, which would make external boxes largely obsolete.

A single chassis streamer /DAC/ high quality DC power supply where the boards plugged into a back-plane and could be upgraded is what I feel is sorely missing on the market.  There have been at least 2 threads recently where folks had a good DAC but had an outdated USB1 section that was degrading their sound, neither of which had a factory upgrade option

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

6000 units sold is still a drop in the ocean today.

 

Well high-end audio more a small lake than an ocean.  And those units are all drops in MY bucket--so I have no complaints! ?

[adamdea]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

6000 units sold is still a drop in the ocean today. Semente is right in saying that most people do not use any of these devices. Of course, most people don't have any USB based audio devices in the first place. The interesting metric here is what fraction of those who use USB for audio have any improvement widgets. I don't have any figures, but I think it's safe to say it's still a minority. As for the future, there are several ways things might turn out. One is that DAC manufacturers start incorporating these ideas directly, which would make external boxes largely obsolete.

I doubt you can make external boxes obsolete. Their main function is to allow people who like buying things to have things to buy. 

Aside I’m not sure what the ideas are? Galvanic isolation is popular on feature lists. But I’m slightly baffled as to what a perfect usb stream would be, bearing in mind that it’s transmitted in bursts anyway and can’t match the tick tock of the conversion clock. I was under the impression that the heavy footfall of the elections had to be outside the box so that it can’t disturb the thingy with its whatsit. I may have missed some of the technical details. 

[mansr]

24 minutes ago, adamdea said:

I doubt you can make external boxes obsolete. Their main function is to allow people who like buying things to have things to buy.

True, there is always that.

 

24 minutes ago, adamdea said:

Aside I’m not sure what the ideas are? Galvanic isolation is popular on feature lists. But I’m slightly baffled as to what a perfect usb stream would be, bearing in mind that it’s transmitted in bursts anyway and can’t match the tick tock of the conversion clock. I was under the impression that the heavy footfall of the elections had to be outside the box so that it can’t disturb the thingy with its whatsit. I may have missed some of the technical details. 

The (main) issues with USB are 8 kHz packet noise and transmission of other noise through the power or data lines. The latter can be mitigated with an isolation device, which also helps prevent ground loops. The packet noise is harder to do anything about with an external box, but some arrangements can reduce it, at least in some situations. Internally to the DAC, there are more, and more efficient, options available.

[Ralf11]

10 hours ago, mansr said:

Where's the "I make my own gizmos" option?

 

it's on another thread

[adamdea]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

True, there is always that.

 

The (main) issues with USB are 8 kHz packet noise and transmission of other noise through the power or data lines. The latter can be mitigated with an isolation device, which also helps prevent ground loops. The packet noise is harder to do anything about with an external box, but some arrangements can reduce it, at least in some situations. Internally to the DAC, there are more, and more efficient, options available.

Assuming my device can take a (say) 1kHz signal input  and output 1 kHz plus some noise and negligible distortion, with

in particular no 8 kHz tone or sidebands, can I assume I don’t need a gizmo for the packet noise?

[mansr]

12 minutes ago, adamdea said:

Assuming my device can take a (say) 1kHz signal input  and output 1 kHz plus some noise and negligible distortion, with

in particular no 8 kHz tone or sidebands, can I assume I don’t need a gizmo for the packet noise?

If there is no 8 kHz packet noise in the output, you do indeed not need a gizmo for that reason. A DAC with good internal power distribution and minimal capacitive or inductive coupling between the USB section and the rest shouldn't have packet noise in the output. If a DAC does exhibit packet noise, there is no guarantee an external widget will do anything to reduce it.

[Wilderness]

With my new iMac, I am using:

 

Wyred 4 Sound uLink USB to S/PDIF converter

 

Wyred 4 Sound Remedy Reclocker

 

I have the inexpensive Audioengine D1 DAC.  With the two add ons from Wyred 4 Sound, the sound quality improved significantly.

 

I also added the IFI Ipower power supply.  And line conditioning surge protectors.

[audiobomber]

I own and use an iFi iPurifier2 with my Dell laptop. It cleans up some grain in usb sound, on headphones through a Sabaj DA2 DAC. Used between an sMs-200 with upgraded power supply and Korg DS-DAC-10R, the iPurifier2 has a net negative effect, compressing the soundstage.

 

I bought an inexpensive Vanguard dual head cable. I use it with my laptop, power leg fed by a power bank through the Sabaj dac. This provides similar quality to the iPurifier2. In my main system, with both legs fed from the sms-200 usb ports, the dual cable does not sound as good as my Oyaide neo Class A cable.

 

In my main system I use the Oyaide, with blocked power pin. I was frustrated that CD's sounded better than an sMs-200 feeding my Audiolab 8200CD player. The difference was not in tone or resolution, it was a difference in coherence, evident on human voice. Sibilants and lower frequencies seem disjointed, spoiling the illusion of of a singer in the room. Blocking the power pin eliminated the difference in coherence between CD and CA. I no longer have a preference in SQ for one over the other.

 

I see no point in trying other usb modifiers. I'm not aware of any reason that asynchronous usb should sound better than an internal CD transport in my system, where asynchronous usb and the CD transport use the same dac, power supply and clock.

 

Using a separate CD transport via SPDIF to a DAC should sound worse than an internal CD transport, because the clocks are not synchronized, causing jitter. I2S would eliminate this issue.

 

I tried an iFi iOne to convert usb to SPDIF feeding the Audiolab, and as expected and predicted by the 8200CD designer, it was inferior to the usb input.