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Consensus about upsampling to 512 DSD


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4 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

Worthless thread.  A DSD - (whatever) copy of a bad recording sounds like.....well,  a bad recording.

@jabbr has it right.

 

 

A worthless recording is always that ?'

 

What I am getting at, and I haven't worked out all the details yet on this, is that when upsample to DSD512, the quantization noise is shifted further out of the audible range and easier to filter away.

 

Lets also consider digital switching noise: at 44 kHz, this is close to audible (if not), but at 24 Mhz, this switching noise, ground plane bounce etc is further pushed out of the audible spectrum and more easily filtered away.

 

Same for Ethernet, 10Gbe switching noise? Not even @GUTB is able to hear that. USB, still 8kHz packets ... hmmm

 

But let's say there is noise on a 24 Mhz (DSD512) signal ... thats very high frequency.

The exception may be close-in phase noise -- is this noise centered around 24 Mhz (center), or is this at the phase offset (e.g. 1Hz,10Hz etc)? Hmm....

 

Anyways food for thought.

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1 hour ago, GUTB said:

Audiophiles place high value in improving SQ. Upsampling and advanced filters are ways to improve SQ -- and so audiophiles are interested in the topic. Non-audiophiles place low value in improved sound quality. In fact some non-audiophiles place such low value in improving SQ they even state than one DAC isn't very different from any other. Needless to say if you think a USB stick DAC is in the same ballpark as a high end ladder DAC than worrying about Upsampling up-sampling is a waste of time.

But there s still no consensus or one size fits all solution. There are audiophile systems where upsampling doesn’t improve the sound and may even harm it. 

And there are audiophiles who prefer the sound of PCM to DSD.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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3 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

Wow, good one!  But the abbreviated form seems a little bit cryptic to me.  The full form below would make a lot more sense don't you think?

 

Quote

趙州和尚因僧問狗子還有佛性也無州云無

 

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14 minutes ago, accwai said:

 

Wow, good one!  But the abbreviated form seems a little too cryptic to me.  The full form below would make a lot more sense don't you think?

 

  

 

There is no easy path to enlightenment...

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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I don't know if there is a consensus, but there certainly are many including myself who believe that HQPlayer upsampling to DSD512 is the way to go for best SQ with the T+A DAC8 DSD.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Grokking is only half the journey, implementing is the unpleasant, greasy hands under the bonnet other side to it ... ?

 

Crucial grokking is the converse of what jabbr just stated, ie. " A worthless recording is always that " - if the content has value for you, then it ain't bad, or worthless, ever; in fact, it's tremendously valuable because it's highlighting with a sharp intensity where the playback chain is failing ... if every recording that sounds bad is flicked, because "my rig shows how bad it is!" then you're partly on the http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_audio_hell.shtml.

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On 6/25/2018 at 2:52 AM, firedog said:

There is no consensus and doesn't need to be. Every system and set of ears are different. What works best on/for one may not for another. 

Not sure that ears are different... but genetics and wiring of the brain for different strengths in perception traits, that makes sense to me.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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14 hours ago, fas42 said:

Crucial grokking is the converse of what jabbr just stated, ie. " A worthless recording is always that " - if the content has value for you, then it ain't bad, or worthless, ever; in fact, it's tremendously valuable because it's highlighting with a sharp intensity where the playback chain is failing ...

 

Enough vague blather ... obviously if the content has value, then it’s not worthless. 

 

Regarding the actual topic of this thread: upsampling allows the recording to present itself in the best fidelity (which might be counterintuitive to some folks) — the reason being that the analog filter operates well outside the audible range. Noise shaping effectively pushes the noise into the high frequency range eg Mhz where it can be thus selectively filtered away.

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Enough vague blather ... obviously if the content has value, then it’s not worthless. 

 

Regarding the actual topic of this thread: upsampling allows the recording to present itself in the best fidelity (which might be counterintuitive to some folks) — the reason being that the analog filter operates well outside the audible range. Noise shaping effectively pushes the noise into the high frequency range eg Mhz where it can be thus selectively filtered away.

Whereas I experience up-sampling as cleaning up digital filtering artifacts at the expense of randomizing signal at the lower limits of resolution.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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47 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Not sure that ears are different... but genetics and wiring of the brain for different strengths in perception traits, that makes sense to me.

We are saying the same thing. “Ears” doesn’t have to be read literally.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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34 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Whereas I experience up-sampling as cleaning up digital filtering artifacts at the expense of randomizing signal at the lower limits of resolution.

 

If the correct upsampling algo is employed then the lowest level information is preserved 

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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15 hours ago, Allan F said:

....but there certainly are many including myself who believe that HQPlayer upsampling to DSD512 is the way to go for best SQ with the T+A DAC8 DSD.

 

 

+1

 

the consensus i am referring to is that more than 50% of those that have tried upsampling to 512DSD prefer it.

 

If you don't believe there is a consensus, try a poll....and you will find that indeed there is a majority consensus.

 

POLL, answer ONLY if you have tried upsampling to dsd512 to nos DAC.

prefer or don't prefer....my guess would be close to 80% would prefer.

 

responders to state which dac and which software they used to upsample.

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I see, so the Xmos chip is what is burning up the player by going D512.  So far I am loving it for my portable player DX200.  It takes up a lot of spaces, but it is awesome.  The ideas is to have all the computing and modulator applied correctly by the computer (offline) and wrote it as a completely processed signals.  Then whatever is being done would be the interface chip itself and the Analog section of the DAC/Player to take care of the job.

 

However, I can not play D512 DSF flies from Jriver natively or Foobar....I don’t know, it is too complicated.  Has anyone done this ? If so, what program and how are you configuring it ? Thanks 

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4 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Enough vague blather ... obviously if the content has value, then it’s not worthless. 

 

Regarding the actual topic of this thread: upsampling allows the recording to present itself in the best fidelity (which might be counterintuitive to some folks) — the reason being that the analog filter operates well outside the audible range. Noise shaping effectively pushes the noise into the high frequency range eg Mhz where it can be thus selectively filtered away.

 

using a filter with a gentle slope and avoiding the problems of "brickwall" filtering - which are ??

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