jabbr Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 4 hours ago, NOMBEDES said: Worthless thread. A DSD - (whatever) copy of a bad recording sounds like.....well, a bad recording. @jabbr has it right. A worthless recording is always that ?' What I am getting at, and I haven't worked out all the details yet on this, is that when upsample to DSD512, the quantization noise is shifted further out of the audible range and easier to filter away. Lets also consider digital switching noise: at 44 kHz, this is close to audible (if not), but at 24 Mhz, this switching noise, ground plane bounce etc is further pushed out of the audible spectrum and more easily filtered away. Same for Ethernet, 10Gbe switching noise? Not even @GUTB is able to hear that. USB, still 8kHz packets ... hmmm But let's say there is noise on a 24 Mhz (DSD512) signal ... thats very high frequency. The exception may be close-in phase noise -- is this noise centered around 24 Mhz (center), or is this at the phase offset (e.g. 1Hz,10Hz etc)? Hmm.... Anyways food for thought. Teresa 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
firedog Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, GUTB said: Audiophiles place high value in improving SQ. Upsampling and advanced filters are ways to improve SQ -- and so audiophiles are interested in the topic. Non-audiophiles place low value in improved sound quality. In fact some non-audiophiles place such low value in improving SQ they even state than one DAC isn't very different from any other. Needless to say if you think a USB stick DAC is in the same ballpark as a high end ladder DAC than worrying about Upsampling up-sampling is a waste of time. But there s still no consensus or one size fits all solution. There are audiophile systems where upsampling doesn’t improve the sound and may even harm it. And there are audiophiles who prefer the sound of PCM to DSD. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
accwai Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 3 hours ago, kumakuma said: 無 Wow, good one! But the abbreviated form seems a little bit cryptic to me. The full form below would make a lot more sense don't you think? Quote 趙州和尚因僧問狗子還有佛性也無州云無 Link to comment
kumakuma Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 14 minutes ago, accwai said: Wow, good one! But the abbreviated form seems a little too cryptic to me. The full form below would make a lot more sense don't you think? There is no easy path to enlightenment... Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Whitigir Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 Now, what I don’t get is that using ESS9028Pro, a chip that has Native DSD512 interface, and yet it would just heat up so much playing Native DSD 512? Isn’t Native DSD meaning that it would skip internal processing and go straight into lowpass filter ? Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted June 25, 2018 Share Posted June 25, 2018 44 minutes ago, kumakuma said: There is no easy path to enlightenment... You've not heard? You must have Frank on ignore ? Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Popular Post kumakuma Posted June 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 26, 2018 14 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: You've not heard? You must have Frank on ignore ? I've heard his posts but haven't fully grokked them yet. Solstice380, daverich4 and 4est 2 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
Allan F Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 I don't know if there is a consensus, but there certainly are many including myself who believe that HQPlayer upsampling to DSD512 is the way to go for best SQ with the T+A DAC8 DSD. "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
fas42 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Grokking is only half the journey, implementing is the unpleasant, greasy hands under the bonnet other side to it ... ? Crucial grokking is the converse of what jabbr just stated, ie. " A worthless recording is always that " - if the content has value for you, then it ain't bad, or worthless, ever; in fact, it's tremendously valuable because it's highlighting with a sharp intensity where the playback chain is failing ... if every recording that sounds bad is flicked, because "my rig shows how bad it is!" then you're partly on the http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_audio_hell.shtml. Link to comment
davide256 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 On 6/25/2018 at 2:52 AM, firedog said: There is no consensus and doesn't need to be. Every system and set of ears are different. What works best on/for one may not for another. Not sure that ears are different... but genetics and wiring of the brain for different strengths in perception traits, that makes sense to me. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 14 hours ago, fas42 said: Crucial grokking is the converse of what jabbr just stated, ie. " A worthless recording is always that " - if the content has value for you, then it ain't bad, or worthless, ever; in fact, it's tremendously valuable because it's highlighting with a sharp intensity where the playback chain is failing ... Enough vague blather ... obviously if the content has value, then it’s not worthless. Regarding the actual topic of this thread: upsampling allows the recording to present itself in the best fidelity (which might be counterintuitive to some folks) — the reason being that the analog filter operates well outside the audible range. Noise shaping effectively pushes the noise into the high frequency range eg Mhz where it can be thus selectively filtered away. 4est 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
davide256 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, jabbr said: Enough vague blather ... obviously if the content has value, then it’s not worthless. Regarding the actual topic of this thread: upsampling allows the recording to present itself in the best fidelity (which might be counterintuitive to some folks) — the reason being that the analog filter operates well outside the audible range. Noise shaping effectively pushes the noise into the high frequency range eg Mhz where it can be thus selectively filtered away. Whereas I experience up-sampling as cleaning up digital filtering artifacts at the expense of randomizing signal at the lower limits of resolution. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
firedog Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 47 minutes ago, davide256 said: Not sure that ears are different... but genetics and wiring of the brain for different strengths in perception traits, that makes sense to me. We are saying the same thing. “Ears” doesn’t have to be read literally. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 34 minutes ago, davide256 said: Whereas I experience up-sampling as cleaning up digital filtering artifacts at the expense of randomizing signal at the lower limits of resolution. If the correct upsampling algo is employed then the lowest level information is preserved semente 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted June 26, 2018 Author Share Posted June 26, 2018 15 hours ago, Allan F said: ....but there certainly are many including myself who believe that HQPlayer upsampling to DSD512 is the way to go for best SQ with the T+A DAC8 DSD. +1 the consensus i am referring to is that more than 50% of those that have tried upsampling to 512DSD prefer it. If you don't believe there is a consensus, try a poll....and you will find that indeed there is a majority consensus. POLL, answer ONLY if you have tried upsampling to dsd512 to nos DAC. prefer or don't prefer....my guess would be close to 80% would prefer. responders to state which dac and which software they used to upsample. Link to comment
Whitigir Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 I see, so the Xmos chip is what is burning up the player by going D512. So far I am loving it for my portable player DX200. It takes up a lot of spaces, but it is awesome. The ideas is to have all the computing and modulator applied correctly by the computer (offline) and wrote it as a completely processed signals. Then whatever is being done would be the interface chip itself and the Analog section of the DAC/Player to take care of the job. However, I can not play D512 DSF flies from Jriver natively or Foobar....I don’t know, it is too complicated. Has anyone done this ? If so, what program and how are you configuring it ? Thanks Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 4 hours ago, jabbr said: Enough vague blather ... obviously if the content has value, then it’s not worthless. Regarding the actual topic of this thread: upsampling allows the recording to present itself in the best fidelity (which might be counterintuitive to some folks) — the reason being that the analog filter operates well outside the audible range. Noise shaping effectively pushes the noise into the high frequency range eg Mhz where it can be thus selectively filtered away. using a filter with a gentle slope and avoiding the problems of "brickwall" filtering - which are ?? Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 http://soundlab.cs.princeton.edu/learning/tutorials/sensors/node35.html Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 minute ago, jabbr said: http://soundlab.cs.princeton.edu/learning/tutorials/sensors/node35.html as a kid, I loved Ms. Butterworth's syrup... mansr 1 Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 http://soundlab.cs.princeton.edu/learning/tutorials/sensors/node36.html Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
One and a half Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 16 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: as a kid, I loved Ms. Butterworth's syrup... What a worthless post Ralfeeee Baybee, just full of them. asdf1000 1 AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
Popular Post 4est Posted June 26, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted June 26, 2018 11 minutes ago, One and a half said: What a worthless post Ralfeeee Baybee, just full of them. If everyone put him on ignore, maybe he would go away... One and a half, Allan F, asdf1000 and 1 other 3 1 Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 did both you whiners miss the allusion? or do you need a limbic system adjustment? you are both welcome to put me on ignore - LMK if you need help on how to do that Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: did both you whiners miss the allusion? Of course, I didn't but my name is Kalman. Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
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