Time to Tube? A Headphone Dude's Indecision

[buonassi]

I think I'm ready to experience tube amps.  I know they are different than solid state in their sound, but all the descriptors our there don't really help me understand what I can expect from a tube amp.  Things like "warm" and "gooey" make me hungry, they don't sound appealing (nor are they helpful) as audio descriptors.

 

My feeling is that I must buy an exotic tube amp if I wish to enter the next SQ league - but is there any truth to this or is tube vs SS simply a preference?  I know that on SBAF they are highly regarded and that @exdmd absolutely loves his Kenzie.  TBH, I feel somewhat left out - like I'm missing out on a whole new world by sticking with my solid state.  

 

What are your guys' thoughts on this?  Is it time to tube?  

 

So I do it right now - cheap OR do I do it right - expensive?  

 

Should I get a cheap amp like a little dot or schiit and see if it's for me - test the waters so to speak?  Or should I just go big and get a proper tube amp (to not risk being put off to tubes by a cheap model)?  The reason I mention going big is this:  recently, I've developed an appreciation for stage depth and width - something I didn't really think was important nor did I care for it - until I heard it done with great finesse and deftness.  I'm led to believe if I go the proper route I'd have a similar experience.  

 

So things that have me on the fence about going big with a proper tube amp:

 

Probably need to get new cans - my HD600 are fine, but probably can't resolve the nuanced detail in these high end amps - my Elears are great, but they are only 80 ohm which isn't ideal with the high output impedance of honest OTL tube amps.

 

I've heard they are slower - I listen to progressive rock with fast drum fills and transients - double bass kick work, etc.  I'm afraid the transients would get smoothed over with a tube amp.  

 

OK, recs very welcome and experiences with tube vs solid state even more so!  Please guide me 

 

 

 

 

[WAM]

I am afraid you are asking a pretty impossible question ?. The pretty worthless answer: it depends. 

 

I use several amps (Arcam rHead, Feliks Elise, MF MX-HPA, SRM-006ts)) and several headphones (HD650, AH-D7200, ATH W1000z, Stax SR507). I listen to all kinds of music (except rap and that kind of noise). 

 

The AH-D7200 and the Elise are a good match. For the AT it makes hardly a difference which amp I use (although the first choice is the MF).

 

The quality of the recording is another attention point. Overall, for listing to older/not so nice recordings (say Rosalyn Tureck's WTK), the AH-D7200 is much nicer than the AT (the AT is quite analytical, the AH-D7200 is more forgiving). I do not find the Elise "gooey", it is just another sound. Again, my ears, my preferences.

 

If you want speed and tubes, the Stax-combi is hard to beat. Certainly there are other (more affordable (?)) options.

 

My advice: try to listen to some combi's. Not every good headphone and every good amp are a good marriage. And a high price does not mean an amp works for you.

I think you should start with the cans you own (nothing wrong with them and you know their sound, so you can decide for yourself or a different amp "adds"  something).  

 

Happy hunting!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nordkapp]

My approach is this-keep all the electronics SS and as neutral as possible. If you are looking to add flavor to the resultant end sound, then do it with the headphones. There are plenty of options in that regard. I've owned various tube amps for stereo and HP. I personally wasn't impressed-longer warm up time, heat and the overall sound was infact too squishy for my personal tastes. But if you do go that route, I'd say start now with a Schiit. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.

[davide256]

A traditional tube headphone amp with big honking transformer has slow bass transient response like an 18 wheeler trying to dodge in and out of highway traffic and  changing pre tubes alters its tonal balance, hence why most tube amp owners have a collection of pre tubes.  That's why I like the Berning originated Microzotl 2 transformer-less tube amp, its got the sonic signature of a tube amp but tonal balance is insensitive to tube changes and transient response is close to that of solid state. Solid state can be pretty good for headphones because not that much wattage required... however it can also be pretty bad. Look at HeadAmp or Burson if you want to go solid state. Burson discrete op amps were a must when I played with modding

solid state pre amp sections

 

I found that spending less than $500 on a headphone amp was  wasted  money, obvious flaws, poor resolution. A good amp pushes you into the $1~2K range.

[davide256]

And as to  the sonic signature question, well to me at the introductory level solid state paints a sonic picture of tone colors with wispy water colors, tubes paint with vivid oils. The two do converge as price and engineering sophistication goes up.

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 hours ago, buonassi said:

I think I'm ready to experience tube amps.  I know they are different than solid state in their sound, but all the descriptors our there don't really help me understand what I can expect from a tube amp.  Things like "warm" and "gooey" make me hungry, they don't sound appealing (nor are they helpful) as audio descriptors.

 

My feeling is that I must buy an exotic tube amp if I wish to enter the next SQ league - but is there any truth to this or is tube vs SS simply a preference?  I know that on SBAF they are highly regarded and that @exdmd absolutely loves his Kenzie.  TBH, I feel somewhat left out - like I'm missing out on a whole new world by sticking with my solid state.  

 

What are your guys' thoughts on this?  Is it time to tube?  

 

So I do it right now - cheap OR do I do it right - expensive?  

 

Should I get a cheap amp like a little dot or schiit and see if it's for me - test the waters so to speak?  Or should I just go big and get a proper tube amp (to not risk being put off to tubes by a cheap model)?  The reason I mention going big is this:  recently, I've developed an appreciation for stage depth and width - something I didn't really think was important nor did I care for it - until I heard it done with great finesse and deftness.  I'm led to believe if I go the proper route I'd have a similar experience.  

 

So things that have me on the fence about going big with a proper tube amp:

 

Probably need to get new cans - my HD600 are fine, but probably can't resolve the nuanced detail in these high end amps - my Elears are great, but they are only 80 ohm which isn't ideal with the high output impedance of honest OTL tube amps.

 

I've heard they are slower - I listen to progressive rock with fast drum fills and transients - double bass kick work, etc.  I'm afraid the transients would get smoothed over with a tube amp.  

 

OK, recs very welcome and experiences with tube vs solid state even more so!  Please guide me 

 

 

 

 

 

The most important thing you must do on this specific journey is listen to some tube gear using your own music first. 

 

If someone has been riding a horse and buggy their whole life and hears people extol the virtues of Ferraris. He can't go test a Kia to see what cars are really all about and to see if he might like a Ferrari. 

 

Don't get sucked into rhetoric or superlatives about tubes versus solid state. 

 

Do you live near a dealer or place with an audio show? Or, contact a manufacturer of an amp you are really interested in and see how you can audition one. They may direct you to a dealer with a loaner or something else. You may have to pay shipping etc... but it's far better than jumping in head first or half assed when you don't really know what you want. 

 

 

[davide256]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

The most important thing you must do on this specific journey is listen to some tube gear using your own music first. 

 

If someone has been riding a horse and buggy their whole life and hears people extol the virtues of Ferraris. He can't go test a Kia to see what cars are really all about and to see if he might like a Ferrari. 

 

Don't get sucked into rhetoric or superlatives about tubes versus solid state. 

 

Do you live near a dealer or place with an audio show? Or, contact a manufacturer of an amp you are really interested in and see how you can audition one. They may direct you to a dealer with a loaner or something else. You may have to pay shipping etc... but it's far better than jumping in head first or half assed when you don't really know what you want. 

 

 

I think I wasted about $1500 on various headphone amps before going to an audio show and attending my first Can Mania at CAF... I try not to buy headphone gear anymore

without first hearing it at a HeadFi sponsored event. The only minus is that if something has been good for a while you may not see vendor demos as  typically they are showing

off the latest gear, you have to look then for a HeadFi member meet.

[buonassi]

Thanks all for the advice.

 

I own the Arcam rHead and think it's outstanding - but I haven't been able to compare it to a "higher end" SS unit.  I really am not left wanting for anything right now, but you don't know what you're missing until you hear it.  

 

As it turns out, there is a boutique tube amp manufacturer about 10 miles away from my house!  What are the odds?   Decware is their name and they're somewhat known among the head fi community - but first I've heard of them.  Apparently, they do two channel and mono-block tube amplification as well for stereo setups.  I think the wisest thing to do is see if I can rent one of their head amps for a week or so (clearly would have to leave a deposit in addition, and that's ok).  

 

I've sort of pigeon holed myself here and it's hard demoing gear outside of my home listening chain.  I use AU plugins (FabFilter ProQ2 primarily) to smooth out the treble peaks/nulls that are par for the course with headphones and have become very accustomed to my personal compensation curves.  Hard to justify a macbook purchase when I'd never really use it except for demoing gear away from home.  

 

I'll let you guys know what my thoughts are if I can work something out with Decware.  

 

Again, my thanks!

 

 

[jabbr]

17 hours ago, buonassi said:

I'll let you guys know what my thoughts are if I can work something out with Decware.  

You are lucky! Decwares got a great rep. I’ve looked at their speakers on a few occasions.

 

Good solid engineering. 

[Melvin]

@buonassi have you checked out the Decware Forum? Nice helpful folks on that board. Love my Decware SE84UFO amp. 

[buonassi]

5 hours ago, Melvin said:

have you checked out the Decware Forum?

 

not yet, but I will.  Have yet to make it out to their showroom, but it's literally across town.  So, I do consider myself lucky.  Even if it's not for me, the fact there is a reputable boutique manufacturer in my area is very cool.  

[buonassi]

Update.  Went with a schiit Lyr 3.  The person I bought it from had a few different tubes to try with it.  Let's just say I'm glad I started smaller than an Amps and Sound or a Decware!

 

Oh boy the rabbit hole of tubes.  Even rolling one tube in a lyr3 is a bit of a task. Sure I can hear differences, but at least these are 6sn7 tubes and pretty easy/cheap to come by.  

 

I can only imagine how much deeper (and more expensive) that rabbit hole goes when you have different types of tubes doing different things in the circuit.

 

Overall, I'm liking the flavor of tubes, but glad I'm dipping my toe vs jumping in.  

 

I now understand the analogies that were made previously:  painting in oils vs watercolors, etc.  A final thanks to you all.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thanks for the update. 

[TubeLover]

4 hours ago, buonassi said:

Update.  Went with a schiit Lyr 3.  The person I bought it from had a few different tubes to try with it.  Let's just say I'm glad I started smaller than an Amps and Sound or a Decware!

 

Oh boy the rabbit hole of tubes.  Even rolling one tube in a lyr3 is a bit of a task. Sure I can hear differences, but at least these are 6sn7 tubes and pretty easy/cheap to come by.  

 

I can only imagine how much deeper (and more expensive) that rabbit hole goes when you have different types of tubes doing different things in the circuit.

 

Overall, I'm liking the flavor of tubes, but glad I'm dipping my toe vs jumping in.  

 

I now understand the analogies that were made previously:  painting in oils vs watercolors, etc.  A final thanks to you all.

Well said, and please note that the painting in oils can significantly deepen and leave you stunned.

 

JC

[rodrigaj]

13 hours ago, buonassi said:

 

...Oh boy the rabbit hole of tubes.

I can only imagine how much deeper (and more expensive) that rabbit hole goes when you have different types of tubes doing different things in the circuit....

 

I would never go back to tubes for exactly that reason. I had C-J gear in the 80's. Some folks enjoy tube rolling but I found it exasperating. I was constantly "listening to the system" instead of the music.

 

Like you I have often thought of returning to tubes via headphone amplification, but reason prevails.

 

Did you ever make it to Decware?

[davide256]

Pre tube coloration can be as bad as buying interconnects, ran into that with a CJ-PV10A. When I bought the Microzotl 2 as a headphone amp, hadn't really intended to use it as a pre but its SQ and transformer-less design eliminated fussing over coloration, only had to deal with least distortion, best transient response in tube selection, allowed me to retire the CJ. The 6SN7 is actually a mini power tube so I'm suspecting the Lyr design is a solid state-tube hybrid.

[Melvin]

15 hours ago, buonassi said:

Update.  Went with a schiit Lyr 3.  The person I bought it from had a few different tubes to try with it.  Let's just say I'm glad I started smaller than an Amps and Sound or a Decware!

 

Oh boy the rabbit hole of tubes.  Even rolling one tube in a lyr3 is a bit of a task. Sure I can hear differences, but at least these are 6sn7 tubes and pretty easy/cheap to come by.  

 

I can only imagine how much deeper (and more expensive) that rabbit hole goes when you have different types of tubes doing different things in the circuit.

 

Overall, I'm liking the flavor of tubes, but glad I'm dipping my toe vs jumping in.  

 

I now understand the analogies that were made previously:  painting in oils vs watercolors, etc.  A final thanks to you all.

 

Congrats on the Lyr 3. 

 

Tubes, like most things audio, can be fun if you are the tweaky type. I've rolled a few but honestly, I have no interest in acquiring a collection of them. I do think it's wise having a couple of sets of backup tubes for those times when failure happens, so why not have different flavors. Best of luck with the new amp.

 

[cfisher]

I just added an ampsandsound Kenzie Encore to my headphone system. Prior to that, I was using a Jotunheim. I love the Kenzie and don't have the slightest regret. Justin uses the adjectives "drive" and "texture" to describe the Kenzie and those descriptions seem right on to me. I chose the Kenzie because I listen while I work and thus the amp is on most of the day. I saw it as a big advantage that the tubes (1626 and 12SL7) are super cheap. Also, the Donald North Stratus that I was also considering had a year wait time. While I think the Kenzie sounds better in every way than the Jotunheim, listening to the Kenzie makes me appreciate how good the Jotunheim sounds for a fraction of the price. It actually makes me want to get a Lyr 3 as well since I have a bunch of NOS 6SN7s laying around for my Freya. I just need to think of a justification that will pass muster with my wife.

[buonassi]

14 hours ago, rodrigaj said:

Did you ever make it to Decware?

not yet, but soon.  I'm swamped at work right now and have engagements for the next few weekends.

 

13 hours ago, davide256 said:

so I'm suspecting the Lyr design is a solid state-tube hybrid.

right you are!  But this new circuit that Jason Stoddard designed seems to really let the tube sound affect the final output.  I honestly didn't think i'd hear a big difference with different tubes because it was a hybrid and that I'd be straining - wrong I was!

 

10 hours ago, cfisher said:

It actually makes me want to get a Lyr 3 as well

They're going for just over $400 used on head-fi.org (includes shipping).  But I'd have to think the refinement and texturing doesn't really match the Kenzie.  I really like the idea of the Kenzie because it has variable output impedance, doesn't it?  Do you think I could get away with driving 80ohm Elears with it?  Or would I have to get something like HD800?

[Ralf11]

14 hours ago, rodrigaj said:

 

I would never go back to tubes for exactly that reason. I had C-J gear in the 80's. Some folks enjoy tube rolling but I found it exasperating. I was constantly "listening to the system" instead of the music.

 

Like you I have often thought of returning to tubes via headphone amplification, but reason prevails.

 

Did you ever make it to Decware?

 

newer tube designs preserve the positive benefits w/o being too phaat or needing 'rolling'

[cfisher]

I got the 32/300 ohm taps. I'm using Elear, HD-6XX, and Andromedas on the 32 ohm tap. All sound great. I was thinking that I would put the Lyr 3 in my main system for when I want to sit on a couch, watch tv, and listen to headphones. 

[mrvco]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:30 PM, buonassi said:

not yet, but soon.  I'm swamped at work right now and have engagements for the next few weekends.

 

right you are!  But this new circuit that Jason Stoddard designed seems to really let the tube sound affect the final output.  I honestly didn't think i'd hear a big difference with different tubes because it was a hybrid and that I'd be straining - wrong I was!

 

They're going for just over $400 used on head-fi.org (includes shipping).  But I'd have to think the refinement and texturing doesn't really match the Kenzie.  I really like the idea of the Kenzie because it has variable output impedance, doesn't it?  Do you think I could get away with driving 80ohm Elears with it?  Or would I have to get something like HD800?

 

How are you liking the Lyr3?  Did yours Include a DAC module?

 

I've never had a serious headphone setup (just a pair Shure SE535 IEMs for mobile listening), but I'm starting to test the waters... just bought a pair of HD650 headphones and a Fulla2 for my desk as a baseline.  Debating on whether to buy a quality solid-state headphone amp or a tube headphone amp or a 20ft cord so I can just use my Mytek Brooklyn OR a new DAC altogether and use the Brooklyn for headphones only (or some combination of the above... slippery slope!).

 

The Lyr3 is interesting since it only has one tube to obsess over and has the option for a DAC module.... very K.I.S.S... which appeals to me if my headphone rig is going to be sitting on my desk in front of me.

[buonassi]

I have the amp only (no dac installed) and I still really like it.  With the right tube, it's not lacking for resolution, dynamics, clarity, you name it.  Plus, it'll drive just about anything you can put over your ears - POWAH!  In low gain, you'll get the sweet spot for HD650 at about 12:30 on the dial. High gain seems to make the phones respond with 'punchier' faster low end, but I like the natural decay and balance of low gain personally.

 

I was suprised at just how much the sound can change with a different tube.  For a tube newb like me, having one is definitely a plus.  I'm really glad I didn't get an uber-expensive boutique tube amp - though that day will eventually come I think.

 

If you end up buying one, I can recommend a few tubes that have satisfied - or you can read all 80 something pages of this:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-3-tube-rolling-thread.876016/

[mourip]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:48 AM, davide256 said:

A traditional tube headphone amp with big honking transformer has slow bass transient response like an 18 wheeler trying to dodge in and out of highway traffic and  changing pre tubes alters its tonal balance, hence why most tube amp owners have a collection of pre tubes.  That's why I like the Berning originated Microzotl 2 transformer-less tube amp, its got the sonic signature of a tube amp but tonal balance is insensitive to tube changes and transient response is close to that of solid state. Solid state can be pretty good for headphones because not that much wattage required... however it can also be pretty bad. Look at HeadAmp or Burson if you want to go solid state. Burson discrete op amps were a must when I played with modding

solid state pre amp sections

 

I found that spending less than $500 on a headphone amp was  wasted  money, obvious flaws, poor resolution. A good amp pushes you into the $1~2K range.

 

+1 for the Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL line. I have both their MicroZOTL v2 and their new MicroZOTL Preamp. I use an HD650 and an HD800S with the MZ2 for stellar results. The preamp I use in my speaker system. Their design seems to combine the best attributes of SS and tubes. Additionally you can "dial in" the sonics to your taste by choosing different tube variants. One nice feature is that they can use 12SN7s which sound the same as their expensive and increasingly rare 6SN7 counterparts but are MUCH less expensive.

[Puffalo]

As long as you are getting into the tube rolling game - the 6SN7 is a great tube but there are many out there.  The best of the best are the Tung Sol Smoked Glass NOS - running in a close second is the Sylvania's also NOS but be aware these are pricey.  Saving grace is you only need 1 - I run mine in mached pair in my Rogue Tempest MK II