Kimo Posted June 11, 2018 Author Share Posted June 11, 2018 Thanks for a lot of great options. I have divided them up into classes. Gryphon looks to be something special 950 watts into 2 ohms. 16k retail. Pass INT 250: I am familiar with the Pass gear and from the description posted sounds like a typically great Pass unit. Accuphase 470: Rated at 180 into 8 ohms and 260 into 4 ohms, so I am not sure how it compares to the others on the list that double down. Priced similarly to the Pass. Offers more flexibility and less back breaking. Modwright and Coda look similar and are priced closely at retail 5K and 6K respectively. Either one looks like a great "economy" option. Would love to have a Gryphon, Accuphase/Pass, Modwright/Coda shootout. Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 50 minutes ago, Kimo said: Thanks for a lot of great options. I have divided them up into classes. Gryphon looks to be something special 950 watts into 2 ohms. 16k retail. Pass INT 250: I am familiar with the Pass gear and from the description posted sounds like a typically great Pass unit. Accuphase 470: Rated at 180 into 8 ohms and 260 into 4 ohms, so I am not sure how it compares to the others on the list that double down. Priced similarly to the Pass. Offers more flexibility and less back breaking. Modwright and Coda look similar and are priced closely at retail 5K and 6K respectively. Either one looks like a great "economy" option. Gryphon are expensive but appear to be in a class of their own IMO. I also like the Pass Gear very much. Having auditioned various models of each brand and owning them, I prefer the Gryphons for their ultimate neutrality and transparency to my ear. They are also incredibly fast, articulate, assert great authority over bass woofers, realistically define detail and soundstage. Pass , for me, have a little too much mid range warmth which is initially seductive. I hate, hate, hate 'digital glare' and grain, that hardness, edge and brightness in the upper mids and lower treble. Neither of these amps have that and that alone for me justifies their expense. I am aware that others' experience is that all of the same can be achieved for a fraction of the price (with or without tweaking) and all power to them, just not my experience. 50 minutes ago, Kimo said: Would love to have a Gryphon, Accuphase/Pass, Modwright/Coda shootout. You owe it to yourself to seriously audition any component before buying especially in this price range, preferably in your own home if at all possible. I know the latter may not always be possible but some dealers still do this.Some charge a handling fee which is fair enough IMO. Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
fas42 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 If Accuphase, I would take a very careful listen. At the last audio show I went to I heard one of their units driving a pricey domestic version of JBL monitors, and was rather surprised to hear the sound starting to fall apart at elevated sound levels - I would have expected better, considering their reputation. Link to comment
MetalNuts Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 12 hours ago, AnotherSpin said: And, I like your avatar, it is the best. Thank you. MetalNuts Link to comment
MetalNuts Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 12 hours ago, mav52 said: Yep affordable, only $20k with the dac That much? I bought it about a year ago at around $8,000 without dac. It is more or less the same with Jeff Rowland's S2. MetalNuts Link to comment
mav52 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 15 hours ago, MetalNuts said: That much? I bought it about a year ago at around $8,000 without dac. It is more or less the same with Jeff Rowland's S2. Tell me where, " Gryphon Audio Designs Diablo 300 DAC-Integrated AmplifierPrice: €17,600 (€12,800 without DAC module; add €1800 for MM/MC phono module). " The Truth Is Out There Link to comment
GUTB Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 I wanted to listen more to the Diablo at THE Show, but their room was full all the damn time. Link to comment
Kimo Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 I have carved the auditioning list down to the Gryphon and the Coda. I was able to find a helpful thread on Audiogon that discussed many of the models mentioned here. Finding a demo may be tough, however. May start with the Coda which is 10K cheaper at retail. Link to comment
MetalNuts Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 8 hours ago, mav52 said: Tell me where, " Gryphon Audio Designs Diablo 300 DAC-Integrated AmplifierPrice: €17,600 (€12,800 without DAC module; add €1800 for MM/MC phono module). " I am living in Hong Kong. The listed price from the agent here is around USD10,000 and I got it from an acquainted shop at about USD8,400. N.B. The former quote of USD8,000 is based on the exchange rate of USD1 = HK$8 whereas the later quote of USD8,400 is based on the actual exchange rate of USD1 = HK$7.8 mav52 1 MetalNuts Link to comment
gmgraves Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 On 6/10/2018 at 1:45 PM, Kimo said: I am considering auditioning some higher powered electronics with my Alta Audio Celesta FRM-2 monitors. They are of a nominal 4 ohm load. I am only interested in integrated amps. So far I have come up with 2 candidates. 1. Pass Labs INT 250 2. Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 I have ruled out a few brands already for various reasons: Accuphase, Ayre, Boulder, Chord, Devialet, and Musical Fidelity. Looking for suggestions and at least 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Market seems smaller than I had thought. I am done with heavy separates and monoblocks, though obviously the Pass isn't very easy on the back. Yeah, most integrateds are 150 WPC or less. I'd recommend the Parasound Halo integrated at 160 WPC @8Ω if you weren't in need of 200 WPC or greater into 8Ω because it sounds fabulous. George Link to comment
AudioDoctor Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Balanced Audio Tech makes a 150/300 WPC integrated. McIntosh MA9000 is a 300 WPC integrated. Marantz PM-10. 200/400 WPC No electron left behind. Link to comment
tgb Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 hi Kimo, like you i was fed up with multi-boxes set up. I was looking for a high power amp too. I got the Classé Sigma 2200i, 5kEur : a bargain ! All-in-one box. Top notch digital inputs, network, usb, hdmi, coax, toslink... A lot of features like EQ. Of course, power is really there, no fake watts. If your sources are digital. If you stream thru upnp, it's really the right choice for those who want to "clean" their setup. For Roon compliance, you just need to add a sotm sms200, connected to the very good usb input. Rgds 2.1 basic stuff => 2 mains are Dynaudio Core59 + sub Dynaudio 18s Actives / digital AES in / active correction on PC side Passive daddy setup is dead Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 mcintosh, once you own one, nothing else will do....that is why resell value is so high, many times costing more than original price....higher retention rate than any other amps.... I am cheap, but i will always have a mcintosh.. 2nd pick would be most anything by nelson pass, and i have personally tried well over 30 different amps, but never had an accuphase, but those are much more $$. Would also consider Dartzeel and Audio Research Link to comment
beerandmusic Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, tgb said: hi Kimo, like you i was fed up with multi-boxes set up. I was looking for a high power amp too. I got the Classé Sigma 2200i, 5kEur : a bargain ! All-in-one box. Top notch digital inputs, network, usb, hdmi, coax, toslink... A lot of features like EQ. Of course, power is really there, no fake watts. i thought i heard classe went out of business? Link to comment
ShawnC Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 2 hours ago, beerandmusic said: i thought i heard classe went out of business? http://soundunited.com/sound-united-announces-acquisition-of-classe-audio/ Computer setup - Roon/Qobuz - PS Audio P5 Regenerator - HIFI Rose 250A Streamer - Emotiva XPA-2 Harbeth P3ESR XD - Rel R-528 Sub Comfy Chair - Schitt Jotunheim - Meze Audio Empyrean w/Mitch Barnett's Accurate Sound FilterSet Link to comment
RichB Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 A bit off the beaten path is Power Modules new Virtuoso Integrated amp. MSRP $6,500 AND 200W/CH (and knowing Dave Belles, it will probably do 400 or close top that into 4 ohms). I have not heard it yet (its a pretty new product), but have been using/selling Dave’s amps/integrateds for many years - he has deliverd very good sound for the dollar consistently. May be worth checking out. I have heard a Dartzel integrated on a customers system with Devore speakers - Very good sounding amp, but very pricey. --------------- Rich Brkich Owner, Signature Sound Liverpool, New York USA Website: http://www.sigsound.com FaceBook Page: http://www.facebook.com/Signature.Sound.HiFi Link to comment
Summit Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Mark Levinson no 585 and Simaudio Moon 700i can be fund used for a “good price” and are considered one of the best integrated amps. I like to have one myself. Link to comment
GUTB Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 On 6/11/2018 at 4:49 PM, Kimo said: Thanks for a lot of great options. I have divided them up into classes. Gryphon looks to be something special 950 watts into 2 ohms. 16k retail. Pass INT 250: I am familiar with the Pass gear and from the description posted sounds like a typically great Pass unit. Accuphase 470: Rated at 180 into 8 ohms and 260 into 4 ohms, so I am not sure how it compares to the others on the list that double down. Priced similarly to the Pass. Offers more flexibility and less back breaking. Modwright and Coda look similar and are priced closely at retail 5K and 6K respectively. Either one looks like a great "economy" option. Would love to have a Gryphon, Accuphase/Pass, Modwright/Coda shootout. The Accuphase inability to double output suggests low current -- someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- which in turn suggests they will struggle with difficult loads. This doesn't mean Accuphases are bad, but it may mean extra care in system matching may need to take place. On the other hand they publish impressive noise specs. Modwrights get mixed reviews. They had a real nice-sounding system at last year's AXPONA. I think they make thier own capacitors. Link to comment
GUTB Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 47 minutes ago, Summit said: Mark Levinson no 585 and Simaudio Moon 700i can be fund used for a “good price” and are considered one of the best integrated amps. I like to have one myself. Yes on the 585, impressed by this unit at AXPONA this year. Link to comment
psjug Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, GUTB said: The Accuphase inability to double output suggests low current -- someone please correct me if I'm wrong -- which in turn suggests they will struggle with difficult loads. Maybe continuous power spec for 4 ohms is limited by heat dissipation? Link to comment
4est Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, psjug said: Maybe continuous power spec for 4 ohms is limited by heat dissipation? You make a good point in that their standards might prevent the rating even if it can do it short term. Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
shtf Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 On 6/10/2018 at 1:45 PM, Kimo said: I am considering auditioning some higher powered electronics with my Alta Audio Celesta FRM-2 monitors. They are of a nominal 4 ohm load. I am only interested in integrated amps. So far I have come up with 2 candidates. 1. Pass Labs INT 250 2. Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 I have ruled out a few brands already for various reasons: Accuphase, Ayre, Boulder, Chord, Devialet, and Musical Fidelity. Looking for suggestions and at least 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms. Market seems smaller than I had thought. I am done with heavy separates and monoblocks, though obviously the Pass isn't very easy on the back. Of the two primary choices you list, without hesitation I’d opt for the PASS Labs but only because it’s not Class D whereas the Jeff Rowland is Class D. Don’t get me wrong. I love Class D amps. Well, the musical ones anyway. I experienced an integrated high-powered Class D amp and though I thought it rather musical in some ways, I got rid of it is because I heard what seemed to be an unusual amount of audible distortions. I’m big on using superior line conditioners to cleanse / purify the noisy AC coming in from the street and I remember an experiment with some prior Class D mono-block amps each having their own dedicated line conditioner and then the added distortions received when I tried sharing just one line conditioner between the 2 mono-block amps. Anyway, I remembered that experiment when I was auditioning the integrated Class D amp. That’s when I realized 2-channel Class D does not work well in a single chassis configuration and especially not in a single-chassis integrated amp configuration. Though not digital, Class D’s high-speed switching amps will induce a digital-like bi-directional noise that, when power is shared at a single AC inlet, the bi-directional digital-like noise is also shared between the 2 channels at the common AC inlet. And with Class D, it's common for each channel has its own amplification section even though they share a common chassis. It only gets worse when that same configuration is taken to an integrated design because the pre-amp section must borrow AC from one of the 2 channels. And since the 2 channels are already sharing their bi-directional digital-like noise with each other, now the pre-amp section is also getting the bi-directional noise of both channels. So based just on the two amps you listed, I can all but guarantee you the PASS Labs int. amp stands a far greater probability of sounding more pristine, more delicate, and just more musical than the Class D int. amp by Jeff Rowland. But I’ll put in a plug for another Class D amp. About 4 years ago, I went from my $8k BMC C1 int. amp to try the Wyred-4-Sound (W4S) SX-1000 575wpc Class D mini-mono-block amps that retailed for $2400 the pair. Though not necessarily the prettiest of amps, the W4S mono-blocks are by far the most musical amps I’ve owned to date and frankly, made the BMC int. amp sound like a $100 BestBuy receiver in comparison. And that’s not to say the BMC amp was inferior. But there’s a caution with any rather high-powered amp which as with the W4S’ high-powered 575wpc provides a rather powerful and dynamic presentation. So much so that in my already quite dynamic system, it now seemed the initial attack of every musical note was in my face when using an active gain stage pre-amp. Almost like my ears were running up onto the soundstage for the initial attack of every note and then running back into the audience for the ensuing decay. Which to me is not very realistic. But when I removed the active pre-amp and just went with my digital source’s internal passive volume attenuator, it became an incredible combination because now all the music remained at the soundstage including the notes’ initial attack while my ears remain firmly planted into the audience. And though I swore numerous times I’d never go with a passive pre because of my love for dynamics, my system is actually just as dynamic as ever because of the 575wpc but now in a much more realistic sense and always with a distance between my ears and the soundstage. As it should be. Also, I’m pretty sure W4S still has a 30-day satisfaction guarantee or your money back. I should mention there is yet another potential benefit of going with very a high-powered amplification / passive volume attenuator combo which is the overall music presentation became that much more pristine and even delicate, especially in the higher frequencies. I suspect because any time an input signal is amplified new distortions are induced and/or the amplified gain stage amplifies pre-existing distortions. And a passive pre-amp eliminates this potential as well. The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait. It's all just variations of managing electrical energy. -Me Link to comment
Kimo Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 On 6/12/2018 at 10:05 PM, gmgraves said: Yeah, most integrateds are 150 WPC or less. I'd recommend the Parasound Halo integrated at 160 WPC @8Ω if you weren't in need of 200 WPC or greater into 8Ω because it sounds fabulous. I am not sure I am in need of 200 wpc or greater, but I would like to give a high powered integrated a try. I have used Pass 60.8 amps on these speakers and while they sounded excellent, I ended up going back to tubes. Not sure I will depart from tubes, but I would just like to hear what big power can do. I am familiar with Pass sound, so the INT 250 will always be an option. It is big and hot, however. The Gryphon looks great, but is really pricey and not available for demo, at least for me. I am going to give the Coda integrated a shot. At 400 watts into 8 ohms and 800 in 4 ohms., it certainly qualifies as big power and it only weighs in at 55 lbs. I read that the Coda guys came from Threshold, where they worked along side Nelson Pass. Made in USA and priced at a reasonable 6K. Just have to track down a demo. If I don't like what the Coda does, I doubt I will be blown away by the others. I will have to concede my audiophile life to tubes with big heat and transformers. I do appreciate all the suggestions. Link to comment
ds58 Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 While you are doing research, please take a look at the Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. I have the 2170... I was very skeptical about DSP room correction, but I had to admit it sounded great - really great. I had never been able to integrate subs, but it was easy with Room Perfect. I was fortunate to get a good deal on one, and right now I wouldn’t swap it out for anything except the 3400, because it will be Roon Ready (soon?), and it never hurts to have more power. In any case, good luck! Link to comment
TubeLover Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 This unit is, as the ad indicates EXTREMELY rare. And just back from the factory after a checkup? This is a world class, mindbogglingly good integrated! https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9032e-valve-amplification-company-phi-beta-110i-integrated-amplifier-never-seen-for-sale-tube JC Link to comment
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