Pink Faun 2.16

[flkin]

The different power cables may have caused some of the differences perhaps, but I used the same 1kVA Topaz isolation transformer on both streamers.

 

 

[HeeBroG]

On 10/16/2018 at 10:31 PM, flkin said:

Pink Faun 2.16x setup, listening tests and a comparison with Antipodes Cx+Ex

 

 

 

 

 

 

    Convolution

 

I have long wanted to try to eliminate the room from the audio equation but never got around to it. Finally decided to make the effort do get it done properly. Recommended to me by @lpost, he found convolution useful in his setup and suggested to use a service by Thierry at Home Audio Fidelity https://www.homeaudiofidelity.com/.

 

After all, what's the point of optimising the sound of audio hardware into a coloured state in order to compensate for room errors? My audio room was built up to Louden room dimensions (Ratio 1:1.4:1.9), properly dampened on certain surfaces and specifically designed non-symetrical corners to avoid standing waves to avoid such problems. Even then, the room had certain node and phase issues causing bass to be muddy (only found this out later at the end of the exercise). After measuring the acoustic characteristics of my audio room and sending it to Thierry, I received back a set of 4 matrix files which I entered into the HQPlayer matrix engine which allowed the software to correct the bass nodes and phase errors.

 

What a difference! ? The listening sweetspot expanded considerably, the music stopped making soundstage shifts when I moved my head slightly and the bass tighened significantly clearing some muddiness from the bass and lower mids.

 

Convolution matters and it's a necessary step to take for getting the audio system to perform properly be it computer audio or otherwise. The effect is far greater than optimising wires or power supplies or clocks and is one of the greatest advantages of computer audio - the ability to use easily use convolution compared to tradition non-computer music sources that cannot perform this function easily.

 

For those readers that have used a Audio Video projector system and had their system colour space measured tuned to display Adobe RGB and have suddenly found their picture quality improving substantially becoming more natural and cinema like, it's the same thing but for sound. It's the tuning of the room to neutral sounding so that the equipment can show their true character.

 

Hi flkin,

 

Thanks for the report.

 

What is the cost difference between the 2.16X and the Antipodes EX/CX?

 

The feed to the DAC will no longer be "bit-perfect" with convolution.

Do you think that it affected the transparency in any way?

 

G

 

 

 

[flkin]

From Antipodes website without SSD internal storage:

 

Antipodes Cx = NZ$5895

Antipodes Ex = NZ$4295

 

Pink Faun 2.16 starts at Euro7000

Pink Faun 2.16x as configured in my test = Euro10323 (no SSD, no LAN (and clock), no shipping price for comparison)

 

The difference between the basic 2.16 and the 2.16x version described above are 3 OCXO new type clocks, PCX-1 cables, 3x10mm Rhodium fuses and Furutech FI-09 Rhodium AC-inlet.

 

It's true the DAC isn't fed "bit perfect" data once you add convolution but I'm not sure sending the DAC bit perfect is a good end game target. Bit perfect to the ear is a better approach and that will require thinking about the room effects.

 

Convolution is purposely distorting the sound in order to compensate for how the room colours the playback. So it's like using two distortions to cancel one another out.

 

If you can't accept to distort the sound then the best you can ever achieve might be perfect sound but distorted by your listening room. Or worse, you may be aiming for a coloured sound that matches your room to get it neutral. Does that make sense? The alternative would be to keep working on improving the room acoustics alone. I think it's not an either or solution but probably a bit of both that would be the best approach.

 

Convolution isn't perfect and it's tricky to get it to be a generic solution for all genres of music. I find it more suited to acoustic music in real settings where the benefit of accuracy is more easily heard. If your original room settings or echos made the music blur, then for sure convolution can improve transparency. I mentioned in another thread that convolution isn't a technical solution but more like subjective solution and requires some work to get it right. 

[HeeBroG]

Thanks flkin.

 

I think that is a good analogy about "...two distortions..."

 

Romaz mentioned convolution/upsampling requires a powerful server.

I understand that upsampling does but I recall reading somewhere that Thierry from HAF says that it is not processor intensive.

 

I ask because I currently use a Mac mini as a server with sMS-200Ultra Neo as NAA.

I am waiting a little for the server tech to mature a little before committing but the 2.16x is ticking a lot of boxes because it seems upgradeable. 

 

I was also intrigued to learn of Romaz's experiments with the SOtM switch which suggests a high powered serve may not be necessary.

Conflicting information I guess.

 

G

[flkin]

Sometime back before I committed to a dedicated streamer, I used my Macbook as the Roon Core. It was doubling as a Plex server at that time too. I had it playing through a re-clocked (switch + sMS-200 + tx-USBultra) plus isoRegen - basically a re-clocked Trifecta+iR with the Mutec Ref10 clock. When I then replaced the Macbook with an Antipodes Dx, it was quite a bit of a jump in SQ. This was the event that eventually persuaded me to move towards a dedicated streamer, I didn't expect such a large difference given the data was processed and cleaned so much after leaving the Macbook. 

 

Perhaps the re-clocked D-Link DSG-105 isn't enough of an improvement to make the Macbook as good as the Dx? Or it's still best to use a dedicated streamer? I'm looking forward to see how the switch tech develops in time and John Swenson's version when it comes out.

[HeeBroG]

Thanks flkin for sharing your experience.

Do you still use the tX-USBultra to condition the USB output from the 2.16x?

Is the Ref-10 still part of your setup?

 

I don't plan to upsample with HQPlayer as I leave that to my DAC.

I do however plan to use the HAF convolution filters.

Do you think a "monster" server like the 2.16x is still important for such purposes?

 

G

 

 

[flkin]

Hi G,

 

Not using the tx-USBultra nor Ref 10 clock in my chain anymore. It's direct from USB out of 2.16x into DAC now.

 

I still haven't concluded my HAF filters as yet and working to fine tune them. It's not an easy process but Thierry is very helpful and sending me many sets of adjusted filters. I'm finding that on the 2.16x I have a slight loss of fine details with convolution compared to without and I'm thinking it's something to do with the corrected phase. My early Wilson speakers are said to have tricky phase issues. 

 

You don't have to use HQPlayer for convolution, Roon also accepts filters in the settings page (originally hidden until you press the additional button). Thierry can make filters for both players.

 

Kin

[Evo-No-Revo]

I had a PF Dual 2.12 Streamer for a very short bit in 2017 but it had to be returned to PF for repair because of shipping damage.  The Control PC ran Windows and the Audio PC ran Linux.  As I was having issues I never got to really get a feel for the Linux side of things.  I am completely clueless when it comes to Linux.  Plus my music SSD was installed in the Control PC so I was very familiar with moving music files around in Windows.

 

Jord and myself have worked a deal as we STILL wait for the criminal insurance company to do anything.   I am now waiting on the new clocks to be finished and I am getting a loaded 2.16X single PC and it should be here sometime in December.  I am using USB and Lan bridges. 

 

But my question is really just a simple Linux operational question.  I will only have Roon, HQP and Linux running on the 2.16X.  I will have a 4TB SSD to house music files locally in the 2.16X. 

How am I to actually load the files onto the SSD?  I figure it is simple answer but I haven't a clue?  I am guessing it is something that is done over LAN but not sure.

 

Thanks

 

 

[lpost]

You're going to be amazed by and love the 2.16.  To manage music files, a Windows compatible share is created so you mount and manage the files from a Windows computer or Mac or other Linux.

 

Jord can set all this up for you remotely, if you wish.  

[Evo-No-Revo]

Okay, now I understand!  Thanks..

 

 

 

 

[flkin]

Evo-No-Revo, your 2.16x setup sounds just like mine but I only have a 1T SSD for music as most of mine listening is done using Tidal. 

 

Can't wait for the new clocks to be completed! Jord says it should be sometime end of this month. The 2.16x is already sounding so good I can't imagine how the clocks will improve the sound.

[Yucca06]

21 hours ago, Evo-No-Revo said:

I had a PF Dual 2.12 Streamer for a very short bit in 2017 but it had to be returned to PF for repair because of shipping damage.  The Control PC ran Windows and the Audio PC ran Linux.  As I was having issues I never got to really get a feel for the Linux side of things.  I am completely clueless when it comes to Linux.  Plus my music SSD was installed in the Control PC so I was very familiar with moving music files around in Windows.

 

Jord and myself have worked a deal as we STILL wait for the criminal insurance company to do anything.   I am now waiting on the new clocks to be finished and I am getting a loaded 2.16X single PC and it should be here sometime in December.  I am using USB and Lan bridges. 

 

But my question is really just a simple Linux operational question.  I will only have Roon, HQP and Linux running on the 2.16X.  I will have a 4TB SSD to house music files locally in the 2.16X. 

How am I to actually load the files onto the SSD?  I figure it is simple answer but I haven't a clue?  I am guessing it is something that is done over LAN but not sure.

 

Thanks

 

 

If you’re using Roon, just drag and drop your files from a control pc inside Roon app. Done.

[Evo-No-Revo]

If you mean Control PC as in the dual Pink Faun setup...I no longer have that.  I will be getting a single 2.16X Streamer running Linux.  I knew I could use Roon once files were in the 2.16 but didn't know how you get files into the Linux OS 2.16 in the first place...or how to add more files. 

 I get it now. 

[lpost]

On 11/13/2018 at 8:40 PM, flkin said:

The 2.16x is already sounding so good I can't imagine how the clocks will improve the sound.

 

Have you tried Extreme mode in Audio Linux?  Nice improvement over standard for me.  Roon thru HQPe non-upsampling.

[flkin]

Not yet. I had thought that the default settings were already on extreme in that the CPU cores were not using power saving modes and operated on full output constantly. I find my case remains very hot when it is on while not being used for this reason.

 

I can't imagine what else the Extreme mode setting brings - do you find the streamer getting hotter than before? How did you switch on the extreme mode?

[lpost]

Probably because you upsample?  I don't.  My CPU temp was ~40C in standard mode and is ~65C in Extreme mode.  Expect this temp to stay this value all the time, playing or not, and upsampling will make it hotter so be attentive.  External case temps in Extreme are ~30C.  Warm but not hot.

 

As root, run sensors-detect, accept defaults.  Then run sensors, it will show your CPU temp along with a few others.  Some are out of range/alarm, don't worry.  

 

SYSTIN:                 +42.0°C  (high =  +0.0°C, hyst =  +0.0°C)  ALARM  sensor = thermistor

CPUTIN:                 +65.0°C  (high = +80.0°C, hyst = +75.0°C)  sensor = thermistor

AUXTIN0:                +15.0°C    sensor = thermistor

AUXTIN1:                +58.0°C    sensor = thermistor

AUXTIN2:                +22.0°C    sensor = thermistor

AUXTIN3:                -27.0°C    sensor = thermistor

 

To start Extreme or ExtremeCL  select one from the boot menu at startup.  There are a couple files to tweak first though, /etc/rtirg.conf and /etc/rtapp/rtapp.conf.  

 

You need to find the device irq you want to prioritize, use rtstatus to find it, then add it's name to rtirq.conf.  rtapp.conf is probably already good as it lists most media players including Roon and HQPe.

 

Piero confirmed rtc can and should be removed from the list, put only your card connected to DAC.  Leave all other sections as they are.  In my system, the I2S card is card0.  I believe you use USB, find the one connected to your DAC using rtstatus.

 

# IRQ thread service names

# (space separated list, from higher to lower priority).

#RTIRQ_NAME_LIST="rtc usb snd i8042"

#RTIRQ_NAME_LIST="rtc usb"

RTIRQ_NAME_LIST="snd_hda_intel:card0"

 

# On kernel configurations that support it,

# which services should be NOT threaded 

# (space separated list).

RTIRQ_NON_THREADED="snd_hda_intel:card0"

 

Try it, you just might like it!

[flkin]

hmmm, my unit seems to be running hotter than yours but also not upsampling currently. After much back and forwards, simple Roon NOS sounds better now. I was always the sharper focus in HQP that was so attractive to me but with our 2.16x I feel the clocks are making the sound focused enough and so organic. 

 

I did see some temp readings in the bios when I last accessed it during use running at CPU 77C and motherboard 50C. Using a hand feel, the temp is roughly the same when on but not in use. I think it might be tropical Bangkok conditions and the ventilation of the room. Probably should increase the airflow in the room.

 

So I figured that it would do with an external fan sucking hot air out above the CPU while not being used. Picked this one up in Amazon and it's great. Hand feel shows much reduced temp to probably acceptable levels.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B012CL2V3I

 

I also picked up one of Piero's USB AL boot to ram drive for my unused i5 SonicTransporter. Will try to configure it as a Roon endpoint and see what all the fuss of the NUC/ALinRam endpoint is all about. With the default Sonicorbiter OS, it wasn't a step forward as an end point. Detailed but harsh, not something I could listen to for a long time.

 

Doing some experiments with a re-clocked switch now (SOtM mod with external Cybershaft OP-14 clock). Putting it between the router and the 2.16x. In the past with the Trifecta, it wasn't a step forward but at that time I had also used the re-clocked txUSBultra between the 2.16x and the DAC. Don't recall testing just the clocked switch alone so I'm doing it again now.

 

So a few things on my testing plate but will also try the extreme mode too a little later. Thanks for the details of setting this up.

 

 

[lpost]

I have read that the Ryzen 1700X and 1800X processors report +20C temps with earlier firmware/bios.  I believe mine is accurate however at 65C as the case temps of 35C seem to be about right.  If the CPU was only 45C I doubt the case would be 35C.  But who knows.  45C seems way too cool for a proc of this GHz.

 

At 77C I would not be inclined to push it further though.   I use an infrared thermometer to measure the case.  The proc went from 42C to 65C but the case only went up +5C.  It's a huge heatsink.  I also use a low rpm 8" USB powered fan (powered from a separate circuit) that is suspended just above the case in the CPU area about 1/2" and drawing air up to assist the natural convection.  

[Middy]

I dont know if its possible on the pink faun case but on My fanless intel case i loosened the screws and added 4 x1 mm spacers. That little bit of extra air flow helped in my case reducing the internal temperature. As long as it doesnt interfere with any connectors..

 

Regards

Dave

 

 

[lpost]

It's a good idea but I don't think it would make a difference as there are many laser cut slots already.

 

[lpost]

For grins, I've run a couple tests.

 

I've tried it with the lid elevated 1/4" and the CPU temp actually went up.  The lid must be helping to conduct the heat away.

 

I also tried it with the lid off, temp of CPU dropped 2C.  Not enough to make it worth the risk of being open despite being tucked safely away in a back room closet (with 5 feet of clear vertical above it and open door).

 

I've also measured many spots on and around the heatsink and pipes on the processor and the highest actual temp measured is ~40C.  So I guess 'sensors' is ready +20C.  Time to edit the offset file...and now I'm really not concerned and @flkin you probably need not either as you're likely really at 57C not 77C.

[lpost]

For anyone else with a Pink Faun 2.16 using the ASRock X370 board that would like to see more accurate sensor data in Linux.  Edit to taste.

 

https://forum.level1techs.com/t/i-made-a-hwmon-lm-sensors-config-for-asrock-x370-boards-nct6779/117006

[flkin]

@lpost, that's good to hear that the Bios reports at +20c but I'll still use my suction fan on top of the case. It seems to work well at the cost of more dust inside the streamer over time.

 

The +20c figure seems so far off what is reported by the Bios it might be best to think on it further. With the heat extractor device and pipes on top of the CPU, your infrared thermometer might not be measuring the hottest part of the CPU? Also the temp sensor inside the CPU would be reporting the internal temp rather than the surface temp and this would presumably be quite a bit hotter than the outside.

 

In my 2.16, the top lid hand-feels hotter than the side fins. The convection airflow should keep the fins cool as designed but I find the top lid surprisingly a fair bit hotter than the sides. After using the suction fan, it's a lot better so I'm surprised you didn't get far better results without a lid. I suppose it comes to the volume of the room enclosure also and if small like in a closet, a steady hot state might form. If in a larger room with ventilation, I suspect a removed lid would make a larger difference.

 

My hifi room where the 2.16 sits get noticeably hotter when the door is closed and left for sometime. The device is a small heater!

[flkin]

Update about my SonicTransporter i5 tests, I removed the internal 64G drive containing the OS and the device still booted up fine with a Windows USB dongle. So the Bios is already preset to boot from USB prior to internal HD. 

 

But the design of the STi5 is such that access to the internal drive requires the thermal paste on the CPU to be separated from the heatsink...bummer. So I have to get some Arctic Silver to redo the paste before continuing. 

[flkin]

Oh one more thing.....

 

Manufacture of the new Pink Faun clocks are complete and ready to ship to Jord. Exciting to see what will he will do with them. I suppose it will still take sometime to incorporate them into existing products, test and fine-tune them before they are ready to use. 

 

Also Jord is working on a RAM version of the Pink Faun AudioLinux OS and other usability improvements to the OS. Shouldn't be long before it's ready for us to try.

 

What a nice Christmas present this would be ?