jabbr Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 The iPhone X is really quite great source/DAC for on the go music. I’ve tried outboard DACs but the biggest improvements are made with headphones/IEMs. The iPhone can drive to he AKG 7xx surprisingly well! These are bulky and I don’t like to wear them while working out. Step up from the stock earbuds are the Beats X which are quite good for the price but the Noble K10s are yet another step up — now I have to go back and retest the DACs... old rule still holds ... the biggest bang/buck is speakers/headphones. Not really sure that those little ESS based devices add too much to the equation ... we shall see. Is this audio nirvana? No. Does not compare with my home setup which is vastly more complex and expensive. Lacks the upper end smoothness and soundstage/dimensionality. I think the biggest differences here are in the quality of the analog output stages. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 iPhone X in particular? or iPhones in general? Link to comment
jabbr Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 51 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: iPhone X in particular? or iPhones in general? I haven't compared side/side models. Apple has invested a striking amount in the end/end music/audio space and I wouldn't be surprised if improvements haven't been made in the iPhone output stages (but don't know). Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Thx - I was wondering if the newer ones had been upgraded (I have a 6). The DACs in their computers seem pretty decent... Link to comment
jabbr Posted May 28, 2018 Author Share Posted May 28, 2018 https://www.headphonesty.com/2017/10/10-things-audiophile-know-iphone-x-flac-opus/ https://www.whathifi.com/apple/iphone-x/review https://www.head-fi.org/threads/iphone-x-sound-quality.864566/ https://ifixit.org/blog/8448/apple-audio-adapter-teardown/ According to the idea that the DAC is actually in the Lightning connector, there shouldn't be too much of a difference between iPhone models unless.... The iPhone X has a much better clock oscillator ??? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Ha! Come to think of it, moving the DAC outside the metal case should greatly attenuate any radiated noise too. Tho noise can easily be transmitted along the wires. Maybe they need to build in a small opto-isolator?? Link to comment
jabbr Posted May 29, 2018 Author Share Posted May 29, 2018 If had to do over I would have had custom fitting for Noble K10s ... didn’t any of the tips that came stock ... found some cheap ones on Amazon that were better but by far the best, and producing by far the best SQ are the Compfy foam tips. Wow! Great seal, comfort and sound! Early testing says that this is far far more significant that the cheap outboard ESS DAC ... I’m using the Lightning cable supplied by Noble Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
buonassi Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 It pained me to read your post. ? It's almost like seeing kef reference 5s hooked up to a pioneer home A/V unit. Those K10s will do great things if driven with a good DAC/AMP. Even a dragonfly red will open them up. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, buonassi said: Those K10s will do great things if driven with a good DAC/AMP I wouldn't dismiss the DAC performance of the latest iPhones and iPads. AMP maybe, depending on what needs to be driven. https://kenrockwell.com/apple/ipad-pro-audio-quality.htm jabbr 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 That guy is a terrible photographer and has a bad ear. The thing is a great DAC and music server won't fit in your pants pocket. Maybe the forthcoming ultra-nano-pico-rundu will... Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: The thing is a great DAC and music server won't fit in your pants pocket. Sure they will. A Chord Mojo or iFi Nano BL etc etc, with your phone serving the music. The iPad Pro's DAC performance itself is good. And these things continue to improve with time. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 well, ok you have big pockets or a very tiny phone... Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 1, 2018 Author Share Posted June 1, 2018 On 5/30/2018 at 2:09 AM, buonassi said: It pained me to read your post. ? It's almost like seeing kef reference 5s hooked up to a pioneer home A/V unit. Those K10s will do great things if driven with a good DAC/AMP. Even a dragonfly red will open them up. Its a matter of convenience. Indeed the little ESS guys like the Dragonfly Red make a substantial difference, particularly in bass control, when driving the AKG 712s with the iPhone and less so but still significant with the K10s, but they need the USB Camera Adapter widget etc. ? FiiO Q1 ? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
buonassi Posted June 2, 2018 Share Posted June 2, 2018 I agree, the convenience may be worth the slight trade-off in SQ if you're not willing to carry a DAP. I do agree with you @jabbr, that the transducers are most important, provided they aren't underpowered. Especially when it comes to a nice quick and pleasing listen, if you can get the FR right, you're mostly there. The micro details, staging, and timing are all things that can be gained with a better DAC, but how critically is one listening when 'on the go' anyway? I have also given the nod to the current gen iPods as well as the iPads (having heard my IEMs through them (I own the ipad still). The internal DACs in them are respectable and the power adequate for IEMs. It's the new iphone dongle I haven't heard. It seems so counter intuitive that a tiny wire with a lightning connecter at one end and a small barrel at the other can do proper conversion! Haven't tried the Q1 but looks nice. I didn't care for the 4490 implementation in their X5 3rd gen DAP. But that was likely the amps that were warming up the sound too much and not a knock on the DAC. The Q5 supposedly comes with their infinitely better AM3 amplifier module. Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 3, 2018 Author Share Posted June 3, 2018 Yes. Realizing that this is actually a DAC topic! I’m continuing the evaluation in the DAC section: reattached the cable with headphone jack to the Nobles: The Beats X also has a DAC builtin as do Bluetooth IEMs. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 What design issues impede SQ of small DACs? @mansr & others have stated that ICs are superior in SQ to discrete devices on another thread.... Link to comment
mansr Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 38 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: What design issues impede SQ of small DACs? @mansr & others have stated that ICs are superior in SQ to discrete devices on another thread.... The IC is just part of the product. A tiny size makes good power supply decoupling and proper signal routing more challenging, if at all possible, and you can forget about nice things like separate regulators for analogue and digital. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 any thoughts on the minimum battery or USB powered high quality DAC size achievable with today's devices? Link to comment
mansr Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: any thoughts on the minimum battery or USB powered high quality DAC size achievable with today's devices? Not off the top of my head. Link to comment
miguelito Posted June 3, 2018 Share Posted June 3, 2018 On 5/27/2018 at 9:01 PM, jabbr said: The iPhone X is really quite great source/DAC for on the go music. I’ve tried outboard DACs but the biggest improvements are made with headphones/IEMs. The iPhone can drive to he AKG 7xx surprisingly well! These are bulky and I don’t like to wear them while working out. Step up from the stock earbuds are the Beats X which are quite good for the price but the Noble K10s are yet another step up — now I have to go back and retest the DACs... old rule still holds ... the biggest bang/buck is speakers/headphones. Not really sure that those little ESS based devices add too much to the equation ... we shall see. Is this audio nirvana? No. Does not compare with my home setup which is vastly more complex and expensive. Lacks the upper end smoothness and soundstage/dimensionality. I think the biggest differences here are in the quality of the analog output stages. Beats X have little bass. They also have the neckband, and if you are doing squats that becomes a problem (bar resting on your shoulder). I recommend the PowerBeats3 with foam tips (look for TX-400 with the appropriate size on Amazon). I also have the Noble K10 customs. I would not recommend this for the gym: the seal is fairly tight and if you tug the cable hard you could damage your eardrums. Def recommend the PowerBeats, especially for an iOS device - it uses Apple’s W1 chip and the range is amazing. I own a vast number of headphones, earbuds (not proud of it). I have tried every frigging thing at the gym. These are my must-haves for gym headphones at this point: 1- Bluetooth (and they must pair easily and reliably) 2- No neckband 3- Good bass 4- Somewhat weather proof 5- Must never fall off Notice this doesn’t exclude the bigger headphones, but the PowerBeats is the sweet spot in my opinion. That’s it folks! NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul system pics Link to comment
opus101 Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Ralf11 said: What design issues impede SQ of small DACs? In my (limited) experience, the primary difficulty is from the power supply when space is tight. I like to use LC filters to get the lowest noise rails, both inductors and low ESR electrolytic capacitors are quite bulky items. Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 6, 2018 Author Share Posted June 6, 2018 On 6/3/2018 at 5:59 PM, miguelito said: Notice this doesn’t exclude the bigger headphones, but the PowerBeats is the sweet spot in my opinion. Powerbeats3 has a neckband, no? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 6, 2018 Author Share Posted June 6, 2018 On 6/3/2018 at 9:29 PM, opus101 said: In my (limited) experience, the primary difficulty is from the power supply when space is tight. I like to use LC filters to get the lowest noise rails, both inductors and low ESR electrolytic capacitors are quite bulky items. These are battery supplied so the typical power supply advice issues don't apply in the same way. No leakage currents etc. The quality I'm getting from the iPhone X -> FiiO i1 -> Noble K10s is absolutely remarkable for a <$40 DAC. It is underpowered to drive the AKG 7xx though file in a pinch or if limited loudness needed. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
miguelito Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 15 hours ago, jabbr said: Powerbeats3 has a neckband, no? It has a thin cable - you can rest a heavy bar on it without an issue. And if you’d rather not, you can wear the cable on the front when you do squats. NUC10i7 + Roon ROCK > dCS Rossini APEX DAC + dCS Rossini Master Clock SME 20/3 + SME V + Dynavector XV-1s or ANUK IO Gold > vdH The Grail or Kondo KSL-SFz + ANK L3 Phono Audio Note Kondo Ongaku > Avantgarde Duo Mezzo Signal cables: Kondo Silver, Crystal Cable phono Power cables: Kondo, Shunyata, van den Hul system pics Link to comment
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