How To Cope If Tidal Does Go Under?

[AudioDoctor]

I have been wondering the same thing.  So far every music service I have subscribed to has gone under.  Blame me, it is all my fault.  If I had the money, I would buy TIDAL, but I suspect there would have to be some hard choices made, concessions from labels, and higher fees.

[left channel]

1 hour ago, TubeLover said:

The fact that Qubuzz has repeatedly been unable to provide its service to the United States makes me think they have either technical issues that a well managed company would not have, or they are incompetent. Once you have already marketed a working, viable product, failure to offer it to other markets indicates either a lack of initiative to do so, or the inability to do so, meaning poor planning, management, and incompetence.

 

JC

 

Past wishful-thinking-out-loud aside, I only know of one official announcement of a US market entry plan, and that was issued at this years' CES when they said they'd be entering the market later this year. Certainly that was only announcement made since new the ownership, and the new strategy for becoming cash positive featuring new pricing tiers.

More broadly, I'm actually impressed with their cautious approach to expansion, in an industry where everyone else has been simply "chasing ears" at a loss the same way the dot-coms used to burn though money chasing eyeballs.

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, left channel said:

More broadly, I'm actually impressed with their cautious approach to expansion

 

Yup. They're thinking long term.

 

"Qobuz has a turnover of 9.1 million euros for 2016-2017 and a negative gross operating result of 4.8 million euros.

He expects to achieve profitability in 2020-2021 with a turnover target of 108 million euros."

 

https://www.rtbf.be/culture/pop-up/detail_qobuz-prepare-son-arrivee-aux-etats-unis?id=9772232

[BigAlMc]

5 hours ago, Brinkman Ship said:

yes it is.... you are correct.... how about a front end to terabytes of locally stored files for many of us..i am not sure why some are linking Roon to Tidal...

 

Because people pay the substantial premium for Roon (compared to the plethora of free or almost free players) for the excellent Roon user experience. 

 

A big part of that experience is the music magazine feel and the ability to browse related artists and other albums. Take Tidal out of the equation and the Roon experience is pretty limited for myself and many others. 

 

I guess if Tidal does fold that it's only a matter of time before someone else offers CD quality streaming (and MQA hopefully just for you @Brinkman Ship ) and integrates fully with Roon.

 

But the gap in between will be long dark days for many Roon-Tidal fans like myself. 

 

Oh FWIW my non-audiophile mates think I'm nuts paying £20 per month for Tidal when I could stream Spotify or suchlike for free. The better SQ argument just does not compute with them. And sadly that's indicative of why Tidal may well be in trouble. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

[rn701]

4 hours ago, Daverz said:

I'll probably buy the recordings that mean to the most to me in my Tidal favorites.   Which reminds me that I should make a list. 

 

And I'll probably try Spotify.  Is it really that bad sounding?  I think 320 kbps could sound pretty good, but I've heard people say that Spotify  "must do something else" to degrade the stream.  Hmmm...

 

Spotify sounds pretty good using a Spotify Connect enabled device or chromecast. Using their PC app and playing through the Windows audio mangler sounds pretty bad. 

 

And as always, the mastering matters most. Most stuff put out by labels for streaming to kids nowadays  sounds pretty bad in any format on any system.

[rn701]

8 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Almost every new receiver or network device supports tidal

 

 

Denon/Marantz have never had built-in support for Tidal like they have for Spotify Connect and now it looks like they never will. Sony and Yamaha don't either. I believe Onkyo is the only one. 

 

Looks like Denon/Marantz (heos) and Yamaha (musiccast) have it via external apps. Or you can use a chromecast device and the Tidal app with any of them. 

 

Anyway, mass market receiver makers have not embraced Tidal like they have Spotify or even Pandora. None of them support MQA, either, for whatever that's worth.

[Daverz]

7 hours ago, lesanderson said:

Deezer is available in the US now and they offer a lossless tier. I don't believe I have seen them mentioned as an option.

 

And there's a Squeezebox app for it.  Can anyone comment on the music selection, particularly classical music?  Perhaps I'll just try the free trial...

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Daverz said:

 

And there's a Squeezebox app for it.  Can anyone comment on the music selection, particularly classical music?  Perhaps I'll just try the free trial...

In general they have a larger selection than Tidal. I haven't looked at it closely, though, or thoroughly for classical.

[beerandmusic]

2 hours ago, rn701 said:

Anyway, mass market receiver makers have not embraced Tidal like they have Spotify or even Pandora. None of them support MQA, either, for whatever that's worth.

 

ok, i stand corrected then..thanks...i guess it was my imagination i saw tidal logo everywhere. 

So i guess spotify does something right that tidal does not?  What do you suppose that is?  Different tiers including a "FREE" tier?  Is there any music streaming service that has several tiers and includes a free tier and supports flac locally?

[4est]

With all of this talk about the demise of Tidal and how it applies to Roon, it makes me wonder if we won't get a solid simple way to stream into HQPlayer. Roon is way over priced for what it is IMO, and Tidal's MQA injection is a PITA as it reeks havoc with my PCM>DSD conversion. The moment I find a good replacement, I am gone!

[Musicophile]

6 hours ago, TubeLover said:

The fact that Qubuzz has repeatedly been unable to provide its service to the United States makes me think they have either technical issues that a well managed company would not have, or they are incompetent. Once you have already marketed a working, viable product, failure to offer it to other markets indicates either a lack of initiative to do so, or the inability to do so, meaning poor planning, management, and incompetence.

 

JC

You are aware of the complexities of international IP rights for music streaming? Because you having the rights for one region doesn’t mean you have them for another one. 

 

How about the enormous marketing budgets it takes to make an kind of progress in a huge market like the US?

 

(Plus if your owner isn’t a rap or RNB star you don’t get any of the regular press coverage)

 

 

[Bones13]

I subscribed to Tidal right when it appeared in the US. I do continue to explore music on Tidal. I also look for new music on Amazon, YouTube, and Bandcamp. We have many Sonos units in the house, on which we stream SiriusXM and my wife’s Spotify account. The Sonos app will also stream my Tidal, and use the Redbook files from the NAS. It’s much less painful to continue her user experience as it is now.

 

I bought a lifetime Roon right when it appeared, and of course, it worked great with Tidal. Roon matches the expectations I have for a music playing app in ways that JRiver and the many others do not. I bought a second Roon for my work office laptop because of this.

 

I still cringe when opening Tidal, as it continues to put images, and music, on the start screen that I don’t care for. You get to tell Tidal what music you like to listen to, and I’m sure it keeps track of what you do listen to. Why can’t it preview new music along those lines?

 

I have a moderate digital library, and tend to buy the CD and/or HiRes and/or Vinyl of the music that I do like. 

 

I guess i wont be overly upset if Tidal fails;

 

1) I’ll continue to preview music in other venues

2) pressure on Roon might cause some accommodation for another streamer company.

3) with accommodations, more than one streaming company may be available - choice.

4) it would be cool to have a way to click on the music playing in a Roon, and directly link to a defined set of purchase opportunities. (Kind of how Amazon works now, but with use defined sites. Say Amazon, and HDTracks, and Linn, and Native DSD) they might could even get a little advertising in this section.

 

There are possibilities 

 

 

 

 

[rn701]

48 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

So i guess spotify does something right that tidal does not?  What do you suppose that is?  

 

My guess is that a) Spotify has been around longer, and b) they claim* to have 70 million subscribers, which is twice as many as any other competitor.

 

.Just to be clear, I'm not knocking Tidal (at least I wasn't before revelations of shady business practices). I liked it when I tried it for a few months. I found that I mainly used it to sample new music to purchase, and Spotify is better for that and cheaper.

 

*Their numbers are likely to be more reliable now that they have gone public and are subject to SEC regulation and scrutiny. 

 

[One and a half]

4 hours ago, Em2016 said:

 

Yup. They're thinking long term.

 

"Qobuz has a turnover of 9.1 million euros for 2016-2017 and a negative gross operating result of 4.8 million euros.

He expects to achieve profitability in 2020-2021 with a turnover target of 108 million euros."

 

https://www.rtbf.be/culture/pop-up/detail_qobuz-prepare-son-arrivee-aux-etats-unis?id=9772232

That's very simple mathematics there, doesn't take a genius to realise the same methods yield the same results, like GIGO.

 

The (wanted) rate of growth in two years will increase 11.8 times (9.1M EUR to 108 M EUR), in proportion the loss will also increase by the same amount plus debt burden, well duh. To increase that amount of volume, Qobuz needs the USA and Japan to come onboard  to achieve that very ambitious target. Dreaming.

[mansr]

6 minutes ago, rn701 said:

My guess is that a) Spotify has been around longer, and b) they claim* to have 70 million subscribers, which is twice as many as any other competitor.

 

*Their numbers are likely to be more reliable now that they have gone public and are subject to SEC regulation and scrutiny.

Spotify is clearly more popular than Tidal. Just ask people around you. While many have a subscription, and pretty much everybody knows of it, hardly anyone even recognises the name Tidal. I'd wager that in a poll, more people would say Tidal is the name of a laundry detergent than a music service.

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, 4est said:

With all of this talk about the demise of Tidal and how it applies to Roon, it makes me wonder if we won't get a solid simple way to stream into HQPlayer. Roon is way over priced for what it is IMO, and Tidal's MQA injection is a PITA as it reeks havoc with my PCM>DSD conversion. The moment I find a good replacement, I am gone!

As far as ROON replacement, i "think" jriver is very flexible and can also use HQplayer?  Even foobar for that fact?  But maybe I am mistaken there too.

[beerandmusic]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

Spotify is clearly more popular than Tidal. Just ask people around you. While many have a subscription, and pretty much everybody knows of it, hardly anyone even recognises the name Tidal.

 

i looked at spotify once, and they didn't support flac at the time....i don't think any that i looked for supported flac....so for all those that don't recognize tidal, they also don't recognize flac?

[mansr]

Just now, beerandmusic said:

i looked at spotify once, and they didn't support flac at the time....i don't think any that i looked for supported flac....so for all those that don't recognize tidal, they also don't recognize flac....

The sad fact is that for the vast majority, Spotify lossy compression is perfectly good enough. They simply don't care.

[PeterG]

7 hours ago, TubeLover said:

I buy at least 6-8 cd's a month based on what I hear on Tidal. In other circumstances, when listening to Tidal, I might choose to hear the entire catalog from, say, Van Morrison, or all the live releases from someone else. No one owns everything and all they might want to hear.  I have over 3,500 cd's that I've bought and paid for, not a single copy. 

 

To replace the total music I listen to on Tidal would cost me a fortune. Apparently you are wealthy enough to do so, to make such pronouncements. I suspect few of the rest of us are. 

 

JC

 

Actually--our practices are virtually identical.  I buy 4-6 CDs/month, typically from Amazon, often after listening to clips on Amazon or YouTube off of my laptop if I do not know the artist.  

 

Sadly, we're both out of step with common practice, very few people buy any music at all.

 

Cheers

 

P

[james45974]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Spotify is clearly more popular than Tidal. Just ask people around you. While many have a subscription, and pretty much everybody knows of it, hardly anyone even recognises the name Tidal. I'd wager that in a poll, more people would say Tidal is the name of a laundry detergent than a music service.

I thought Tidal was a brand of audio equipment!  

[Brinkman Ship]

7 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Because people pay the substantial premium for Roon (compared to the plethora of free or almost free players) for the excellent Roon user experience. 

 

A big part of that experience is the music magazine feel and the ability to browse related artists and other albums. Take Tidal out of the equation and the Roon experience is pretty limited for myself and many others. 

 

I guess if Tidal does fold that it's only a matter of time before someone else offers CD quality streaming (and MQA hopefully just for you @Brinkman Ship ) and integrates fully with Roon.

 

But the gap in between will be long dark days for many Roon-Tidal fans like myself. 

 

Oh FWIW my non-audiophile mates think I'm nuts paying £20 per month for Tidal when I could stream Spotify or suchlike for free. The better SQ argument just does not compute with them. And sadly that's indicative of why Tidal may well be in trouble. 

 

Cheers, 

Alan 

 

Just to be clear, I have no issues with Tidal (aside from MQA of course). It is a legitimate service, and it great for those I identified as not invested in local libraries, or who want to seek out new music. All good. I had it for almost a year.

 

But it is a false narrative that the main function of Roon is to be a front end to Tidal. It was designed as a better audio networking protocol  and as an improvement/replacement of DLNA.

 

 

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, Brinkman Ship said:

But it is a false narrative that the main function of Roon is to be a front end to Tidal. It was designed as a better audio networking protocol  and as an improvement/replacement of DLNA.

Roon is a lot of things. That said, the Tidal integration seems to be one of their main selling points.

[Brinkman Ship]

Just now, mansr said:

Roon is a lot of things. That said, the Tidal integration seems to be one of their main selling points.

I just don't get it.. and I don't think it is a main selling point, at all.....I know a least 12-15 Roon users diehard without tidal accounts.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, Brinkman Ship said:

I just don't get it.. and I don't think it is a main selling point, at all.....I know a least 12-15 Roon users diehard without tidal accounts.

Roon wouldn't be anywhere with 12-15 users.

[Brinkman Ship]

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

Roon wouldn't be anywhere with 12-15 users.

Yes, but that is just who I know..I cannot imagine the majority of Roon users paid $500 just for Tidal integration. Maybe I am wrong.