Jump to content
IGNORED

Article:  Integrating Subwoofers with Stereo Mains using Audiolense


Recommended Posts

Hey Mitcho, 

 

I have for the last 3 years continuously been reading your articles over and over again. Its always been a pleasure.

 

I actually have similar set up to yours, of course I've been emulating your set up for several reasons. We have talked about this on the ASR forum. I have been convinced on how a set up like yours might hit the spot with audio nirvana. I have to say that the difference between my 3 way Troel 3WC with subs vs my 15inch/compression driver doesn't provide a significant difference. Your experiment(article) comparing the bookshelves with your JBL's was fascinating. This isn't a sign of disappointment the sound is larger with the 15 inch and I am still yet to upgrade to a decent 2 inch compression driver with a better horn/waveguide. So the potential is there, and of course the sound is better but not a huge difference which was noted in your other article.

 

Now, I have noticed a few things and I was wondering if you could back it up or refute it with some theory so I know which way to go according to science. I am aware they are amatuer questions but knowledge on them might direct me to a smoother transition with my set up. There just some observations which of course are all related to my particular system and can yield no definite answer but curious ultimately what you think?

 

1. I know this question is always asked but I am curious if you feel the same way? Adding two subs 12 inchers(.43 QTC) so there good subs, doesn't add too much and at times I think it better to have all the bass come out from the 15 inches(Deltalite). But it can get messy down low with some types of music. I am curious if I do add subs whats a decent crossover point? I found 70hz was better than 140hz proving my point that more out of the 15 is better. My cabinet with the deltalite is a SBB4 alignment with an f3 at 51hz and tuned at around 40hz. Any recommendations?

 

 

2. I also found that crossing over the Deltalite with the DE250 at 1600hz sounded better. I know that the 15 inch beams at that Hz and a crossover at around 800hz is better and that I do need a 2 inch compression driver to meet it more smoothly. I am just curious if it could be any reason other than the fact that a 1 inch compression driver can't play well at a lower crossover point at around 1000hz? 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @Trdat, sorry for the delay as I am not getting email notifications on new content...

 

To answer your questions. These are more along the lines of speaker design than room correction...

 

1).  re crossover point. Without seeing the sweeps of both the subs and Deltalites, it is almost impossible to recommend a crossover point. But, having said that if you have an f3 of 51 Hz then it would be around there. Just make sure the subs are actually "subs" and can make it down to or below 20 Hz. In addition, I would use a room mode calculator to identify your room modes and taking into consideration the sweeps of the drivers, try and cross between room modes for the best integration. My 4722's f3 is 40 Hz, but I have a room mode there, so I crossed at 46 Hz, which is in-between room modes and got a much better measuring and sounding integration.

 

2). Yes, typically a 2" CD would go lower than a 1" CD. However, Earl Geddes used the D250 in his systems and crossed at around 800 Hz I believe. Again, you would need to take sweeps of the Deltalite and DE250 and see where a good XO point might be and use your ears to see which you like better, which seems you already have done that. For sure the 15" is likely beaming, but if it is not bothering you, then what me worry :-)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Mitch, you mention that you matched the volume level of the subs to your mains by using the volume control on the subs.   Doesn’t AL adjust the volume  - it surely must do in order to hit the target FR curve ?   Or were you just getting the volume level in the right ball park ?

 

This is relevant not just for subs but also if you are using the active XO and have power  amps with different gains.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @Iansr yes, you want to get the sub(s) level balanced with the rest of the mains to be relatively the same level to match your target curve before applying DSP. Same applies for the rest of an active system using digital XO with an amp per driver.

 

In my triamp system, I try and balance all driver levels to more or less be representative of the target curve I am going to apply. Why? I don't want unnecessary attenuation in the correction filter because I did not have one (or more) of the drivers level matched. For example, if I had the subs turned up too loud, then in order to hit the target curve, the DSP has to attenuate the subs by X db overall to match the target curve with the rest of the drivers. So I end up with a filter that has way more insertion loss then it should. 

 

Audiolense only cuts frequencies and does not boost. Look at the correction curve in Audiolense and you can see it never exceeds 0 dBFS. It is always a good idea to look at the correction filter anyway to see if one is passing excessive subsonic or utlrasonic energy aside from too much correction. Overcorrection is a thing.

 

Good luck!

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, mitchco said:

Hi @Iansr yes, you want to get the sub(s) level balanced with the rest of the mains to be relatively the same level to match your target curve before applying DSP. Same applies for the rest of an active system using digital XO with an amp per driver.

 

In my triamp system, I try and balance all driver levels to more or less be representative of the target curve I am going to apply. Why? I don't want unnecessary attenuation in the correction filter because I did not have one (or more) of the drivers level matched. For example, if I had the subs turned up too loud, then in order to hit the target curve, the DSP has to attenuate the subs by X db overall to match the target curve with the rest of the drivers. So I end up with a filter that has way more insertion loss then it should. 

 

Audiolense only cuts frequencies and does not boost. Look at the correction curve in Audiolense and you can see it never exceeds 0 dBFS. It is always a good idea to look at the correction filter anyway to see if one is passing excessive subsonic or utlrasonic energy aside from too much correction. Overcorrection is a thing.

 

Good luck!

Thanks, I get that; you don’t want AL having to cut more than it needs to do.   When adjusting the volume control on the subs I guess its better to err on the high side if anything so that AL can cut it down to the target FR.

 

Lets say you have a fully active 2 way system and (like yours) the mid/ tweeter has much higher sensitivity than the woofer.   Now I know you use an amp with a lower gain for the mid / tweeter, but what should you do if you are using amps that have the same gain?   Is it better to pad down the mid / tweeter with passive components or just let AL make sizeable cuts?

Link to post
Share on other sites

You want to balance everything as best as possible towards whatever target curve you are interested in before AL. Otherwise, you will be getting too much filter attenuation. So wherever you can make gain adjustments, using line level attenuation, amp input level controls, or Lpad's on the high sensitivity speaker. If it is a compression driver, don't forget a protection cap in series.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

I've ripped out the 50 year passive crossover in a pair of ESS Fortura 10 speakers, which feature gorgeous Heil AMT tweeters. Also replaced with new ESS woofers that have same frequency response as the original.

 

A pair of SVS SB-2000's.

 

Audiolense created all the files of course. A lot fo measurements in REW to find optimal crossover. Funnily enough best was the original crossover.

 

Roon -> HQPlayer doing all the DSP including convolution -> Focusrite 18i20 Gen3 -> pair of Denon amps & pair of subs

 

Sounds sublime.

 

Never heard these speakers sounding so great.

 

Incredible bass!

 

I opted for a bass boost 20 to 200 Hz !

 

I verified these measurements in REW too.

 

Thanks for these Audiolense guides @mitchco - really saved me a lot of pain and heartache

 

 

image.thumb.png.02ffeec8e414472c7f8c4caca6c6b274.png

 

image.thumb.png.6f703f93b412eb8ba9f613a453348413.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @mitchco

 

I saw you crossed your subs over at 40Hz.

 

What did you or would you choose for "LFE cutoff frequency" ?

 

I imagine it's not applicable since you ran your speakers as full range, i.e. you didn't specify any subwoofer in Audiolense so this LFE setting  isn't applicable to you?

 

I copied you with the full range setup, and specified bass, woofer and tweerer drivers. My subs are on the left and right, beside each speaker.

 

 

image.png.24c5ce6d561f2db9601bd6f060ce5e3c.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

I've ripped out the 50 year passive crossover in a pair of ESS Fortura 10 speakers, which feature gorgeous Heil AMT tweeters. Also replaced with new ESS woofers that have same frequency response as the original.

 

A pair of SVS SB-2000's.

 

Audiolense created all the files of course. A lot fo measurements in REW to find optimal crossover. Funnily enough best was the original crossover.

 

Roon -> HQPlayer doing all the DSP including convolution -> Focusrite 18i20 Gen3 -> pair of Denon amps & pair of subs

 

Sounds sublime.

 

Never heard these speakers sounding so great.

 

Incredible bass!

 

I opted for a bass boost 20 to 200 Hz !

 

I verified these measurements in REW too.

 

Thanks for these Audiolense guides @mitchco - really saved me a lot of pain and heartache

 

 

image.thumb.png.02ffeec8e414472c7f8c4caca6c6b274.png

 

image.thumb.png.6f703f93b412eb8ba9f613a453348413.png

 

Perfecto!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 4 months later...
1 hour ago, jmpsmash said:

The images in this article are no longer available. Can someone fix them?

You can always contact Mitch here.

 

 

2 ch Setup:

Motorola Modem sb6141> Emo Systems EN-70HD > (5) eero > Synology 1813+ (DSM 6.2), 4TB Seagate NAS Drives, 4GB RAM & Zero Surge & APC XS BX1000G/backup to Synology DX513) > Roon > Topping D90 > BSS BLU 50 > (2) Hypex NCore NC502MP > JBL M2 Master Reference

 

Watch my Podcast https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXMw_bZWBMtRWNJQfTJ38kA/videos

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

Hi mister Barnett,

I have your great book and my system has improved greatly with Acourate.

I have read the book before but I am going over it again. And I am on the section of crossovers.

Sadly I am not great technically. And I too have a subwoofer (1) in my main system.

In the book you don't really go in the details how to integrate a subwoofer in the system.

So my question is if you can make adjustments to this article so it also works with Acourate?

Or if you have posted somewhere else how to integrate a subwoofer with Acourate?

Or if there will be a follow up of your great book with additional information, and if yes if their is some information on that?

Thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @BlimanThank you for purchasing my book. Attached are two procedures, one written by Uli and the example by Bob Katz. I have not had time to try these, but are on my way too long todo list. If you run into issues, Uli is helpful on his forum. I thought I would link Bernt's Audiolense forum as well since there has been a recent change of venue.

Good luck!

Time Alignment of Drivers by Sinewave Convolution.pdf time_alignment_by_sine_wave_convolution_-_example.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, mitchco said:

Hi @BlimanThank you for purchasing my book. Attached are two procedures, one written by Uli and the example by Bob Katz. I have not had time to try these, but are on my way too long todo list. If you run into issues, Uli is helpful on his forum. I thought I would link Bernt's Audiolense forum as well since there has been a recent change of venue.

Good luck!

Time Alignment of Drivers by Sinewave Convolution.pdf 957.01 kB · 3 downloads time_alignment_by_sine_wave_convolution_-_example.pdf 1.38 MB · 3 downloads

Thank you very much. I will certainly look into it. You and Uli are great persons in helping other people. So a big thank you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

I have 2 subs but one is a Rythmik and the other is a Velodyne.  Am I correct in thinking this should not be a problem as Audiolense will just adjust the response of each as appropriate?

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Iansr said:

I have 2 subs but one is a Rythmik and the other is a Velodyne.  Am I correct in thinking this should not be a problem as Audiolense will just adjust the response of each as appropriate?

Yes, but you might hear the slightly different "quality" of how they produce bass. I don't really think you will, but it's not impossible. It also helps to volume match the two subs.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +_iFi  AC iPurifiers >Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Conditioning+Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Listening: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Matrix Element i Streamer/DAC (XLR)+Schiit Freya>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: RPi 3B+ running RoPieee to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×
×
  • Create New...