ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[Cornan]

6 minutes ago, bit01 said:

Well I said similar from an inductance perspective. The SPC wires have a conductive carbon film deposit (hence hybrid) between their outside diameters and the PE insulation plus the overall SPC shield over the two. I removed the steel wire, the shields are joined together at both ends.

 

Ok, that is interesting! ? A bit similar to my coming experiment with dual ciaxial cables where I want to join the two shields and use the solid cored for +Ve and -Ve. I hope to get that done tomorrow and report back. 

[genjamon]

Cornan, can you describe your reasoning behind joining the shield loops of the two DAC cables?  Why wouldn't just JSSGing them each individually be just as good - or even better?  

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, jabbr said:

John, so are you saying this Faraday cage is neededon the cable between theLPS1.2 and the ISO Regen? 

A DC cable with a leakage loop running through it (remember leakage loops are low frequency) will radiate the line frequency and harmonics which CAN be picked up by ordinary audio interconnects (the shielding on THEM doesn't stop the low frequency radiation, unless they do the shielding right). I HAVE been able to measure this.

 

In this case the proper shielding (JSSG) on the DC cable will prevent this from happening.

 

The LPS-1.2 will stop any leakage loops through its output, so the proper shielding should not be necessary. It MAY slightly change the inductance on the cable which MAY change sound, but that is not an actual shielding effect.

 

John S.

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Are you saying that this is the reason it’s a factor with the LPS1.2 supply, because it has a buck converter? Does the leakage go around the solid state relays/bank switching MOSFETs?

 

The output of the UltraCap LPS-1.2 does not have any AC leakage--neither the high-impedance or low-impedance varieties--regardless of if it is charged by the included UpTone-branded 36W SMPS or someone's large LPS.

 

The Mean Well charger that came with the original LPS-1 did not have a "DC>ground shunt" to eliminate high-impedance leakage. Our UltraCap design has always completely blocked the path of traditional low-impedance leakage, but due to the small amount of capacitance of the transistors we use (not MOSFETs BTW, those would be worse) to alternate banks, some amount of high-impedance leakage can pass through.  Of course the easy solution to that was simply to never present any high-impedance leakage to the charging input of our UltraCap supplies.  John's completely effective ground-shunt trick is easy, but of course it made more sense for us to source an charger that already had that built in.  And we offer this new charger for $15 to those who would like it for their original LPS-1. (https://uptoneaudio.com/products/uptone-branded-7-5v-4-8a-36w-smps-with-internal-ground-shunt)

 

 

 

[JohnSwenson]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Are you saying that this is the reason it’s a factor with the LPS1.2 supply, because it has a buck converter? Does the leakage go around the solid state relays/bank switching MOSFETs?

The DC/DC switching converter inside the LPS-1.2 has nothing to do with leakage current. I have exhaustively tested that and it makes no difference.

 

There is some capacitance in the transistors used to switch banks (bipolars BTW, the ones I use have WAY lower capacitance than any equivalent MOSFETS). The low impedance leakage is blocked completely by these transistors, but some amount of the high impedance leakage from SMPS does get through. This is the reason for connecting the SMPS negative output to safety ground, it shunts the high impedance leakage back to the mains so there is very little entering the LPS-1.2, the transistors can easily handle this. The combination produces no detectable leakage at the output of the LPS-1.2. I can detect about -150dBV, what I see is the noise floor of the system.

 

The LPS-1.2 comes with an SMPS that already has its negative output connected to the safety ground just for this purpose.

 

Now if you don't HAVE a safety ground or it is not connected to the neutral of the mains, then the shunt won't be working. Note there is nothing about earthing in this. It is the fact that the safety ground has a low impedance connection to the neutral (or at least it should) which provides a path for the high impedance leakage to get back to the mains rather than going through the audio system.

 

John S.

[jabbr]

19 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

The DC/DC switching converter inside the LPS-1.2 has nothing to do with leakage current. I have exhaustively tested that and it makes no difference.

 

Thanks for confirming John!

 

I ask because this thread is titled in a way that implies we are discussing the ISO Regen (and hence LPS 1.2) and DC cables that affect the sound of this specific pair, rather than potential issues with DC cables on other devices...

 

 

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I ask because this thread is titled in a way that implies we are discussing the ISO Regen (and hence LPS 1.2) and DC cables that affect the sound of this specific pair, rather than potential issues with DC cables on other devices...

 

Yes, well some CA member started this thread (about using Ethernet cabling as a DC cable), and since I always thought it was more generic as a tweak I asked Chris to move it out of the UpTone sponsored forum (also in part because there was some ugly bickering that I did not want to bear responsibility for).  But the topic title remained the same, and the discussion wanders about.  Quite typical. 

[jabbr]

Just now, Superdad said:

 

Yes, well some CA member started this thread (about using Ethernet cabling as a DC cable), and since I always thought it was more generic as a tweak I asked Chris to move it out of the UpTone sponsored forum (also in part because there was some ugly bickering that I did not want to bear responsibility for).  But the topic title remained the same, and the discussion wanders about.  Quite typical. 

 

Right, but I want to be clear for us folks who are reading and trying to understand why a DC cable might possibly (or not) affect the SQ of the ISO Regen, supplied by LPS 1.2.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, genjamon said:

Cornan, can you describe your reasoning behind joining the shield loops of the two DAC cables?  Why wouldn't just JSSGing them each individually be just as good - or even better?  

 

The reason why I wanted to try the dual Supra DAC was because it was a quick cable construction with low losses (semi-conductive nylon braid screening and air-filled PE foam insulation). I was also interested to try a kind of balanced construction with a shotgun style cable where the drain wire and semi-conductive screen possibly could cancel out artifacts in the two opposite cables. I cannot prove anything, but it surely sounds truly great! Better than Canare 4S6 with JSSG, Supra cat 8 with JSSG and Supra BiLine MKII with JSSG  for sure! ?

 

Electrical performance

Resistance	8.1	Ohm/km
Inductance	0.28	uH/m
Capacitance	45	pF/m
Characteristic impedance	110	Ohm
Velocity factor	0.78	x C (speed of light)

[tims]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

 

The reason why I wanted to try the dual Supra DAC was because it was a quick cable construction with low losses (semi-conductive nylon braid screening and air-filled PE foam insulation). I was also interested to try a kind of balanced construction with a shotgun style cable where the drain wire and semi-conductive screen possibly could cancel out artifacts in the two opposite cables. I cannot prove anything, but it surely sounds truly great! Better than Canare 4S6 with JSSG, Supra cat 8 with JSSG and Supra BiLine MKII with JSSG  for sure! ?

 

Electrical performance

Resistance	8.1	Ohm/km
Inductance	0.28	uH/m
Capacitance	45	pF/m
Characteristic impedance	110	Ohm
Velocity factor	0.78	x C (speed of light)

Hi

Anyone if the supra DAC cable discussed is available on ebay?  I can't find any sellers outside of Sweden and the U.S.

[kelvinwsy]

On 6/17/2018 at 11:46 PM, AnotherSpin said:

 

Ok, but it didn't work for regen to iDSD micro. And, as Alex said it will never do - they are not going to make a link with female A jack

I use the USPCB A>B 90 deg from my minipc serving as a Net Audio Adapter (NAA) to connect to the IsoRegen input port. Then from the IsoRegen Output port, I use the normal USPCB A>B connector to the iFi provided Female B to Female A adapter and then into the iFi iDSD BL dac.

Of course it works. But the key is the provided iFi Female B to Female A (USB3.0) adapter (it is in the box - just find it and use it)

I attach the image below. There are 2 adapters you can use. One is on the left and it has a short patch code with the 2 ends I describe. In the lower fore ground left of center in the packaging is the hard connector without the patch code.

Good Luck

[AnotherSpin]

3 hours ago, kelvinwsy said:

I use the USPCB A>B 90 deg from my minipc serving as a Net Audio Adapter (NAA) to connect to the IsoRegen input port. Then from the IsoRegen Output port, I use the normal USPCB A>B connector to the iFi provided Female B to Female A adapter and then into the iFi iDSD BL dac.

Of course it works. But the key is the provided iFi Female B to Female A (USB3.0) adapter (it is in the box - just find it and use it)

I attach the image below. There are 2 adapters you can use. One is on the left and it has a short patch code with the 2 ends I describe. In the lower fore ground left of center in the packaging is the hard connector without the patch code.

Good Luck

 

Of course with additional adapters one may use any cable. But I am not so much sold to the idea of coupling sophisticated connector with cheapo no name thing. Thank you.

[Quadman]

But I am not so much sold to the idea of coupling sophisticated connector with cheapo no name thing. Thank you.

 

wow,  you won't even try?  It's free what do you have to lose.  Makes no sense to me.

[AnotherSpin]

49 minutes ago, Quadman said:

But I am not so much sold to the idea of coupling sophisticated connector with cheapo no name thing. Thank you.

 

wow,  you won't even try?  It's free what do you have to lose.  Makes no sense to me.

USPCB A>B is not free

[Cornan]

8 hours ago, tims said:

Hi

Anyone if the supra DAC cable discussed is available on ebay?  I can't find any sellers outside of Sweden and the U.S.

 

Here is a link to Supra’s distributors world wide: http://www.jenving.com/distributors

 

 

[sligolad]

10 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Right, but I want to be clear for us folks who are reading and trying to understand why a DC cable might possibly (or not) affect the SQ of the ISO Regen, supplied by LPS 1.2.

Lets no confine this thread to just supply by the LPS 1.2 as this was never the point of the thread or was never inferred in the title, I started this thread not ever having an LPS 1.2.

I stated i used the Meanwell SMPS and a Paul Hynes Linear 5v supply and still heard improvements so lets keep the focus on what the cables do irrespective of source of supply.

[Cornan]

Interesting! Today I decided to build my dual coaxial cable. First I thought to butcher my QED satellite cable that I already know is a great coaxial cable. But then it would’nt be that great challenge as a no-name 75ohm coaxial cable so I descided to get going with the latter between LS-HPULNs and Brooklyn DAC. To make it even more interesting I made it significantly longer and kept the built in ferrites. One on the +Ve cable at the Brooklyn side and one on the -Ve at the LS-HPULNs side.

 

 

My immediate impressions was improved bass and a less airy sound with a tiny fog in the treble area. After listening to this cable for 40 minutes it seems to improve  with less fog and more air and presence. The dual Supra DAC is certainly more crispy and airy still but I will let this cable play for a while to see how it turns out. It is very interesting as a said earlier because this cable is not far behind the dual Supra DAC. Not at all! I get goosebumps from this cable as well and the set-back’s are few and seems to improve by the minute (solid center core?). Really nice! ?

 

I will report back after further burn-in! ??

 

Now I really wonder how the QED coaxial cable will sound with its dual center core and silver plated shield mesh? ??

 

Edit. Just for notes. I twisted both the shield mesh & shield foil together on this cable instead of cutting the shield foil off at the cable ends.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, sligolad said:

Lets no confine this thread to just supply by the LPS 1.2 as this was never the point of the thread or was never inferred in the title, I started this thread not ever having an LPS 1.2.

I stated i used the Meanwell SMPS and a Paul Hynes Linear 5v supply and still heard improvements so lets keep the focus on what the cables do irrespective of source of supply.

 

Ok fair enough, IMHO the LPS 1.2 is often bundled with the ISO Regen and discussion would naturally include this. 

 

The concept that a particular DC cable’s properties are independent of the PSU and device is flawed — the cable is essentially a wire!

 

If the cable is relatively immune to RF/EMI being emitted from the PSU the logical approach is to replace the SMPS PSU!!!

 

Lowered inductance impacts when there is spikey current demand from the device, and itself demonstrating a lack of on board capacitance.  

 

@Cornan‘s approach of placing an in series power supply immediately at the input of the device has merit — this is a real approach to bolstering suboptimal on device power. Likewise the benefit of this approach depends on the quality of the on board power. 

[Cornan]

I must say that my no-name 75 ohm cable is catching up. Approx. 5 hours of constant music listening the dual 75 ohm coaxial cable holds the ground well to the dual Supra DAC. Still the Supra DAC is better with its crispy treble, music glow and airy performance with lifelike presence, but the dual 75 ohm coax shines in the low bass and midrange area with a deeper low end and more alive midrange. Perhaps more suitable for classical music and jazz while Supra DAC edges on electronic music, rock and pop? But WTH, it is not by much. Not by much at all! I can happily live with both cables. No-name 75 ohm cable is much cheaper than Supra DAC (which isn’t expensive at all). My guess is that it is the actual shotgun principle plus the separate tied shields that matters most. I would love to try a DC cable with pure silver on -Ve and gold plated silver on +Ve with separate and tied silver plated shields. In my mind the ultimate DC cable. Not sure about the dual wires just yet. Nothing so far that supports it being a deal breaker.

[Cornan]

One thing that troubles me a bit though. Supra DAC clearly presents a wider sweet spot with my Gibson Les Paul 8 speakers. With the no-name 75 ohm cable I’ll need to be more in the dead center to enjoy it. With the Supra DAC I can be off center and still enjoy it immensely. Cannot explain why this is, but it is a fact in my perticular setup. ?

On the other hand I cannot forget that the 75 ohm coax is more naturally here in a way even if it still have a tiny fog over the treble area compared to Supra DAC which just have an amazingly crispy treble that I have never ever heard from any other cable. I like the 75 ohm coax a lot despite its draw-backs!

[bit01]

@Cornan - Can you mix them up? Make them a couple- coax with the Supra DAC for each leg?

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, bit01 said:

@Cornan - Can you mix them up? Make them a couple- coax with the Supra DAC for each leg?

 

Great idea @bit01! I will try it tomorrow. I did’nt think of that one. Thank’s for the suggestion! ?

[jaaptina]

12 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

USPCB A>B is not free

 

The uspcb may not be free but in my system it clearly enhanced sound quality compared to Supra usb cable. 

[Cornan]

Wow! @bit01 is a genius!

I could’nt stop myself changing out one of the 75 ohm coax to Supra DAC. Supra DAC for +Ve and 75 ohm coax for -Ve. Here is how I put it together:

 

 

To give you some more details I turned the LS-HPULNs around 180 degrees so I could get a shorter cable. I also cutted off the ferrite core to get an idea of its impact.

 

Sat down and had a listen. Wow, just wow! Instant dynamic improvement. Music glow is back. Shimmering midrange. Crispy treble. Presence and goosebumps! This thing is surely better than just Supra DAC on its own. It have all the advantages of the Supra DAC and 75 ohm coaxial cable put together. Awesome. Simply awesome from the first tune! ??

[Summit]

23 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Because they were DESIGNED to meet an old IEC specification that says they should be driven from a 120 ohms source impedance. It's no coincidence that the graph shows this gives the flattest frequency response in the critical midrange area !

 Other headphones such as the AKG K701 etc. , AT W1000 etc. also met this specification.

 

I think you have misunderstood the graph. 0 Ohm is the flattest frequency response and the higher the amp output impedance the more mid-bass boost you get. Maybe the mid-bass boost sounds better to you, but that’s another story....

 

 “Again, look at the impedance plot of the HD800. With a high output impedance amp, the headphones will get a little more gain as the impedance goes up. Therefore, you can think of the impedance curve as an EQ curve with high impedance amplifiers. The higher the amp output impedance, the more the headphones will be EQ'd toward the shape of the impedance curve. In the case of the HD800, the higher the output impedance of the amp, the more you'll get a mid-bass boost centered at 100Hz.”

 

Please provide some reference for that The HD800 was designed to be driven with an impedance of 120 ohms.

 

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/musings-headphone-amplifier-output-impedance#0IWArLxxoRVOlOfO.99